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On February 07 2013 08:53 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:49 KAB00000000M wrote:On February 07 2013 08:17 probeater wrote:
Any way to get map control during the early game (vs p)? Usually the toss keeps a stalker near my nat or at the towers, leaving me with zero map control. im not very comfortable moving out before the 10min push so what should i do? or is scanning their main enough before the 10min mark? You could go reaper opening. Or A very strong opening vs protoss is 1rax gas marauder with concussive. When you have started your concussive research and first marauder production you can remove 1(of 3) scv from gas. And expand after. The marauder owns his stalkers. And will give you good map control + you might be able to kill him if you got good micro / he is greedy or sloppy micro. But important to focus on the MACRO when playing this. As you are not trying to kill him - thats not the purpose. (You could go 2 rax marauder if you wanted to really go for it) From 2 base) Build up a stim timing with upgrades + medivacs. Or what I prefer is a siege tank timing with stim and upgrades. You don't have to do any unorthodox marauder antics to regain map control from the stalker. Assuming you have some level of micro, 4 marines should easily beat his stalker giving you map control until he gets his aoe out. Out of interest, what time does your siege tank timing hit and with what upgrades? Does it have medivacs?
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
I don't know exactly about the timing for tanks push. But they do not require medivacs. But a medivac support to be able to drop 2 tanks then marines into main is also very effective. Because it is not common and throws the protoss off most of the times.
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On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins.
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On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins.
This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive.
I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too.
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I don't know if it should go in the simple questions simple answers thread, but should I learn to look at supply to look when to make depots or should I rely on the idle workers thing? Are there any pros who use the idle worker mark for timing supply depos?
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On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too.
Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard.
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On February 07 2013 15:39 geokilla wrote:Ok I just played the most boring TvT ever... I was up the whole game, but my opponent decided to get all defensive on me and I couldn't crack it. I tried to starve him out but instead, he starved me out. I tried going to BCs, but BCs were useless because they're so slow and are so expensive. I tried to drops too, but like I said, his defense was too good. What the hell do I do in a situation like this? http://drop.sc/302813
I watched it. But, first ill paradigmshift ur view on this game and ur play, then i'll say what was good, what could have gone better and why u lost.
The paradigmshift
1. I agree, it was boring from your end because u did nothing after the first push, except for taking his watchtower!
2. He wasn't defensive, u were. U never really had a plan of attack except for taking the watchtower. His plan was, attack expansions, kill workers, dont engage sieged tanks. If your out of position, that sounds pretty ok to me
3. U didnt try drops like u said, u tried 1 drop with 1 full medivac into 1 turret.
4. Why BC? i just don't see why u needed bc's
5. His defense was not good, ur descissionmaking was off.
What u did good
1. U were outmacroing him. Better upgrades, more workers, more supply. Really good.
2. U took his watchtower and allmost had a good contain.
What could be done better
1. When u pushed the first time at 14 minutes, that was a bad engagement. U push into a choke with siegetanks on highground behind the choke. On this map it's easier to go around to the 3rd were he has less highground advantage and less choke. 2nd, it gives u the info if he expanded, if so kill the expo and do economic damage. If u still want to engage his natureal, kill the rocks first!
2. Two sensortowers or/and some vikings/turrets would have given u possibility to certainly not loose, or u can call it an autowin. If u have that kind of a contain, the only thing he can do, to get a costefficient engagement with his marine/tank, is bypassing that static tankarmy at the watchtower. Because u didnt have mapawareness, u lost expo's and workers and finally the game. The picture below shows where u could have builded the 2 sensortowers for some mapawareness. The vikings or some turrets next to his main would have denied him any drops.
3. When u loose alot of workers, rebuild them.
![[image loading]](http://s4.postimage.org/80staufgt/tankline_2.jpg)
General
1. U outmacro-ed ur opponent
2. Next time scout better how many expo's he has at any given time and kill them if ur army is close;
3/ Give yourself mapawareness. When u go for a marinetank contain, it becomes a positional fight. Mapawareness for runbyes and drops are crucial because u have sieged tanks somewhere else. U can give yourself mapawareness with vikings, troops, senortowers or turrets, how doesnt really matter. By containing him ur forcing him to drop or do runbyes. The only thing that will loose u the game from this point forward is not defending against this when he sticks to marinetank. And if he does attack ur sieged army at the watchtower u will have atleast a costefficient engagement! thats never a bad thing
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On February 08 2013 00:04 Persh wrote:
I don't know if it should go in the simple questions simple answers thread, but should I learn to look at supply to look when to make depots or should I rely on the idle workers thing? Are there any pros who use the idle worker mark for timing supply depos?
You should always be constantly checking your supply with your eyes, so yes, you should learn to check your supply as an indicator of when to build depots.
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On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard.
I don't believe in god.
PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely.
I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus.
Usually if you see the protoss making several gates or robo. I start making bunkers while pressuring with my marauder or marauders. Then pull them back in time when I see they will overwhelm the marauders. A banshee tech or siege tank tech behind this in combination with 3CC in total is usually a good opener for me (Regardless of PF or OC).
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On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus.
The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well.
EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game.
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On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game.
It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style.
Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too.
"They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC?
Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head)
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On February 08 2013 04:46 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game. It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style. Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too. "They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC? Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head)
Just because it's logical to you does not mean it is good. At all. You know what happens if you turtle on 4 bases with a single orbital command? Your opponent gets up an insane amount of AoE and wins. I don't go OC on all expansions, I do it on the first 3 because I can defend them with my army, and don't need a PF. On my 4th base I will usually get a PF, and more macro orbitals. And marauder 3CC is not 'almost the same as 1 rax fe'. It leaves you ridiculously weak to a lot of pressure and isn't as good economically unless by some miracle your opponent misreads what you're doing entirely.
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On February 08 2013 04:50 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:46 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game. It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style. Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too. "They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC? Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head) Just because it's logical to you does not mean it is good. At all. You know what happens if you turtle on 4 bases with a single orbital command? Your opponent gets up an insane amount of AoE and wins. I don't go OC on all expansions, I do it on the first 3 because I can defend them with my army, and don't need a PF. On my 4th base I will usually get a PF, and more macro orbitals. And marauder 3CC is not 'almost the same as 1 rax fe'. It leaves you ridiculously weak to a lot of pressure and isn't as good economically unless by some miracle your opponent misreads what you're doing entirely.
You are missing my point. I never said it is good nor bad. I said it works for me. And I like it.
You neither do need to teach me how the game goes. I know what I am doing. I am not asking for your advice regarding my opening. I am just throwing my idea out there for people to know that it can be done.
By the way. I disagree that marauder opening leaves me (i will put it how you wrote it) "rediculously weak to a lot of pressure". I think the opposite. NB: This is not a proxy marauder push. The barracks is placed inside my base.
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On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:
And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well.
I like 2rax MKP opener (@17 u get a reactor on 1st rax), against protoss on ladder, u will allways pressure him with this build, see everything he is doing and u force him to build gateway units, which in turn delays tech alot. When your medivacs are out, u will have such an advantage against the lowtech protoss that will mostly win u the game there. Ofc. u will also expand, but far later then with a 1raxFe. As i have experienced, a 2rax MKP style puts me more in front then a 1raxFE against toss, because it delays everything the protoss was planning and i dont have to scan to know what his plan is. The execution of harras must be costeffective ofcourse, but with even my bad microskills, it mostly works out.
I am not saying your wrong about the comparison between a conc. opener and a 1raxFe, im just saying for me, it feels like the MKP 2rax gets me more ahead then when i execute a 1raxFe.. or thats how i feel about it on ladder anyway.
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On February 08 2013 04:56 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:
And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well.
I like 2rax MKP opener (@17 u get a reactor on 1st rax), against protoss on ladder, u will allways pressure him with this build, see everything he is doing and u force him to build gateway units, which in turn delays tech alot. When your medivacs are out, u will have such an advantage against the lowtech protoss that will mostly win u the game there. Ofc. u will also expand, but far later then with a 1raxFe. As i have experienced, a 2rax MKP style puts me more in front then a 1raxFE against toss, because it delays everything the protoss was planning and i dont have to scan to know what his plan is. The execution of harras must be costeffective ofcourse, but with even my bad microskills, it mostly works out. I am not saying your wrong about the comparison between a conc. opener and a 1raxFe, im just saying for me, it feels like the MKP 2rax gets me more ahead then when i execute a 1raxFe.. or thats how i feel about it on ladder anyway.
I understand what you mean. I agree.
I do the 1 Rax marauder concussive into expand because I like the more economical opening. It does less damage but I feel it fits my play style better.
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On February 08 2013 04:55 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:50 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:46 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game. It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style. Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too. "They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC? Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head) Just because it's logical to you does not mean it is good. At all. You know what happens if you turtle on 4 bases with a single orbital command? Your opponent gets up an insane amount of AoE and wins. I don't go OC on all expansions, I do it on the first 3 because I can defend them with my army, and don't need a PF. On my 4th base I will usually get a PF, and more macro orbitals. And marauder 3CC is not 'almost the same as 1 rax fe'. It leaves you ridiculously weak to a lot of pressure and isn't as good economically unless by some miracle your opponent misreads what you're doing entirely. You are missing my point. I never said it is good nor bad. I said it works for me. And I like it. You neither do need to teach me how the game goes. I know what I am doing. I am not asking for your advice regarding my opening. I am just throwing my idea out there for people to know that it can be done. By the way. I disagree that marauder opening leaves me (i will put it how you wrote it) "rediculously weak to a lot of pressure". I think the opposite. NB: This is not a proxy marauder push. The barracks is placed inside my base.
It is irrevelant whether or not it works for you, because it is not a good build. Your opinion on whether or not it protects you against pressure is also irrelevant, because you are weak against builds such as 4 gate when you do this. Also, the two rax build is actually pretty good, especially if you all in off the back of it with a 2/1/1.
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On February 08 2013 05:02 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:56 govie wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:
And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well.
I like 2rax MKP opener (@17 u get a reactor on 1st rax), against protoss on ladder, u will allways pressure him with this build, see everything he is doing and u force him to build gateway units, which in turn delays tech alot. When your medivacs are out, u will have such an advantage against the lowtech protoss that will mostly win u the game there. Ofc. u will also expand, but far later then with a 1raxFe. As i have experienced, a 2rax MKP style puts me more in front then a 1raxFE against toss, because it delays everything the protoss was planning and i dont have to scan to know what his plan is. The execution of harras must be costeffective ofcourse, but with even my bad microskills, it mostly works out. I am not saying your wrong about the comparison between a conc. opener and a 1raxFe, im just saying for me, it feels like the MKP 2rax gets me more ahead then when i execute a 1raxFe.. or thats how i feel about it on ladder anyway. I understand what you mean. I agree. I do the 1 Rax marauder concussive into expand because I like the more economical opening. It does less damage but I feel it fits my play style better.
I never tried it. When i build a marauder with conc. shells early i would want to attack, else the gasusage and resources missed would be waste. I would rather build a bunker or two and stay gasless longer to get a bigger eco advantage then researching something i dont need. It doesnt sound logical to research something u don't want to use. But if it works for u...
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On February 08 2013 05:22 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:55 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:50 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:46 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On February 07 2013 20:07 llIH wrote:
Yes you don't have to. But 4 marines requires a ton of micro compared to having 1 marauder with concussive. That way it is easier to focus on your macro / building up a timing attack. Most protoss send their stalker out. The marauder automatically kills the stalker if they meet with concussive.
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins. This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game. It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style. Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too. "They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC? Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head) Just because it's logical to you does not mean it is good. At all. You know what happens if you turtle on 4 bases with a single orbital command? Your opponent gets up an insane amount of AoE and wins. I don't go OC on all expansions, I do it on the first 3 because I can defend them with my army, and don't need a PF. On my 4th base I will usually get a PF, and more macro orbitals. And marauder 3CC is not 'almost the same as 1 rax fe'. It leaves you ridiculously weak to a lot of pressure and isn't as good economically unless by some miracle your opponent misreads what you're doing entirely. You are missing my point. I never said it is good nor bad. I said it works for me. And I like it. You neither do need to teach me how the game goes. I know what I am doing. I am not asking for your advice regarding my opening. I am just throwing my idea out there for people to know that it can be done. By the way. I disagree that marauder opening leaves me (i will put it how you wrote it) "rediculously weak to a lot of pressure". I think the opposite. NB: This is not a proxy marauder push. The barracks is placed inside my base. It is irrevelant whether or not it works for you, because it is not a good build. Your opinion on whether or not it protects you against pressure is also irrelevant, because you are weak against builds such as 4 gate when you do this. Also, the two rax build is actually pretty good, especially if you all in off the back of it with a 2/1/1.
I don't get 3CC if I scout a 4gate developing.
How is it irrelevant when it is a stonger defense than an OC on my natural vs PF on natural? A PF on natural works way better vs baneling busts. Also vs zealot stalker agression.
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On February 08 2013 05:26 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 05:02 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:56 govie wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:
And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well.
I like 2rax MKP opener (@17 u get a reactor on 1st rax), against protoss on ladder, u will allways pressure him with this build, see everything he is doing and u force him to build gateway units, which in turn delays tech alot. When your medivacs are out, u will have such an advantage against the lowtech protoss that will mostly win u the game there. Ofc. u will also expand, but far later then with a 1raxFe. As i have experienced, a 2rax MKP style puts me more in front then a 1raxFE against toss, because it delays everything the protoss was planning and i dont have to scan to know what his plan is. The execution of harras must be costeffective ofcourse, but with even my bad microskills, it mostly works out. I am not saying your wrong about the comparison between a conc. opener and a 1raxFe, im just saying for me, it feels like the MKP 2rax gets me more ahead then when i execute a 1raxFe.. or thats how i feel about it on ladder anyway. I understand what you mean. I agree. I do the 1 Rax marauder concussive into expand because I like the more economical opening. It does less damage but I feel it fits my play style better. I never tried it. When i build a marauder with conc. shells early i would want to attack, else the gasusage and resources missed would be waste. I would rather build a bunker or two and stay gasless longer to get a bigger eco advantage then researching something i dont need. It doesnt sound logical to research something u don't want to use. But if it works for u...
Don't get me wrong. The marauder is to pressure the oponent. Not just camp in base. 
The rax rallys to oponent natural. Put on A move and catch the first potential scout or stalker etc.
As I said before: For map control and scouting.
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On February 08 2013 05:30 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 05:22 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:55 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:50 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:46 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 04:32 kollin wrote:On February 08 2013 04:27 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 01:22 kollin wrote:On February 07 2013 23:53 llIH wrote:On February 07 2013 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:
[quote]
Also, this opening is designed to fake a 2-rax. It's best used when you pre-emptively wall off versus the scouting probe, and then when a concussive Marauder and 3 Marines come to chase the Stalker away, the Protoss panicks and goes, "2-rax? Crap, I'd better warp in some more Sentries and drop my gates before I get the robo". Then, you expand or even better double CC behind that map control, and by the time the Protoss figures out the 2-rax is fake, you have the defenses up to withstand normal pressure and only have to worry about all-ins.
This is exactly what I mean. The superiority of the marauder with concussive early has a very strong scare factor. And also a kill factor. You can kill of a lot of single units with marauder concussive. I love to get a CC to orbital on natural and get a PF asap on the 3rd. Force him to all in the 3rd is a good situation to be in. You can even PF the natural too. Why in god's name would you make a PF on any of your first 3 command centres? Let me run you through how the modern marauder based opening is in TvP at the moment. What you can do now, is go marauder with concussive shells into 3 orbital commands and get upgrades and army and medivacs and all that good stuff. However, unless the protoss is dumb you usually can't do much damage and you tend to straight up die to a lot of pressure, which is a standard 1 rax fe is...well standard. I don't believe in god. PF is really good against pressure. I know it is totally not what basically all the pros do. But it actually works. I don't care what the metagame nor what the pros do. I want to learn my strategies based on logic and my own personal experience of the game. I am not a pro player. But I am at master mid level. Not that the league is an argument. I base my arguments on logic, purely. I have a lot of success with concussive marauder openers. And even if I don't get PF. I can hold pressures back. The pressure of my marauder gives me a lot of information as well as scouting of the enemy. Macro with this opener is most important. My goal is to get scout and map control - not kill. Killing him is just a bonus. The reason making a PF at your natural and third is not standard is because it is bad and you sacrifice huge amounts of economy for very little gain, which is why you clearly don't base your arguments on logic. And I'm not saying concussive openers are bad, they are just inferior to 1 rax fe's assuming you can execute it well. EDIT:Going into banshee's and siege tank's from a marauder opener is really not a good idea, at this point you NEED to get your bio infrastructure up, or you will be too far behind in the rest of the game. It is logical to me. Most opponents tend to be aggressive and attack me when I have 3CC early. I am aware of that OC is way better economical - it is obvious. Please don't tell me that I haven't based my arguments on logic. Because I have. Just because it is not logical for you - doesn't mean it is not logical for me. It is logical to say that OC is more economical therefore go OC instead of PF. PF safer against agression therefore go PF instead of OC. I don't care. For me it is a logical reason for my choice of CC upgrade. And I really like the style. Banshee opening and siege tank opening after 3CC is actually one of the strongest builds to hold early pressure. And I can use banshees further. I bet you can see that I am focusing on defensive play. Which is what my plan is. I actually get early 4th base too. With the PF too. "They are just inferior to 1RaxFE". I find this quite vague. Depends on the purpose. By the way. You realize that my marauder opening is almost the same as 1RaxFE just with one gas added before the CC? Are you going OC on all expansions just because the pros and majority are doing it or because you honestly feel it is better? (I keep hearing argumentum ad populum ringing in my head) Just because it's logical to you does not mean it is good. At all. You know what happens if you turtle on 4 bases with a single orbital command? Your opponent gets up an insane amount of AoE and wins. I don't go OC on all expansions, I do it on the first 3 because I can defend them with my army, and don't need a PF. On my 4th base I will usually get a PF, and more macro orbitals. And marauder 3CC is not 'almost the same as 1 rax fe'. It leaves you ridiculously weak to a lot of pressure and isn't as good economically unless by some miracle your opponent misreads what you're doing entirely. You are missing my point. I never said it is good nor bad. I said it works for me. And I like it. You neither do need to teach me how the game goes. I know what I am doing. I am not asking for your advice regarding my opening. I am just throwing my idea out there for people to know that it can be done. By the way. I disagree that marauder opening leaves me (i will put it how you wrote it) "rediculously weak to a lot of pressure". I think the opposite. NB: This is not a proxy marauder push. The barracks is placed inside my base. It is irrevelant whether or not it works for you, because it is not a good build. Your opinion on whether or not it protects you against pressure is also irrelevant, because you are weak against builds such as 4 gate when you do this. Also, the two rax build is actually pretty good, especially if you all in off the back of it with a 2/1/1. I don't get 3CC if I scout a 4gate developing. How is it irrelevant when it is a stonger defense than an OC on my natural vs PF on natural? A PF on natural works way better vs baneling busts. Also vs zealot stalker agression.
Thank god we're talking about TvP, where luckily banelings busts don't exist. And against zealot stalker pressure, build bunkers. You don't lose much money and still have a nice amount of mules. I dread to think what you do on entombed valley and akilon, where your opponent can literally walk past your PF taking no damage.
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if you are building pf's on your natural as terran the ''terran help me thread'' is indeed the approriate place to go because in any match up in any situation you realistically encounter it is terrible.
On the 3th it is sometimes a good idea but on the modern maps today we do not really have forward 3th bases anymore that give you a stronghold (eg xel naga gold base) from long long long ago. Nowadays third bases are normally easy to defend and 3 ocs is a absolute minimal for going into the mid game vs p/z on even footing.
I can understand why lower ranked players make a pf here because of the mechanics required to control terran game flows its nice to have something you dont have to think/pay attention about.
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EPT
