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On January 22 2012 13:00 deathtrance wrote:
what's the ratio of marine/marauder for TvP? I can't seem to find the correct ratio...
I don't know either but marines should probably be favoured. I trust marines more than I do marauders unless we're talking about storms or colossi or marine vs stalker micro.
EDIT: also, is the that ratio different when vsing chargelot/archon and vsing colossus?
I'd want plenty of marines in the former case and no marines in the latter case. Marines gain a lot of benefit from huge numbers. Somebody here on TL forums once did zealot vs marine math more or less to the effect that 2 zealots should eat 4 rines but 50 zealots be laughed at by 100 rines, with various stages in the middle. You could load a unit testing map and find out on your own.
On January 22 2012 18:35 tianGO wrote:
Hey guys, what do you think are the best allins vs nexus first, or 1 gate nexus?
Something with thors but also enough other stuff to deal with zealots and any immortals. Hit before 12 minutes if you're one-basing. E.g. this. Becomes more of an all-in if you really skip expanding and bring SCV's along (may be better to set them on auto-repair rather than swarming the opponent with them, since you want the squishy banshees to survive and deal dps and the point of thors is they take long to die (and 1/6 HP still deals full damage, while 1 marine remaining of 6 does not), and SCVs repairing each other are great at absorbing fire and delaying melee advance. Generally, you can live with 1-2 colossi but don't want him to have HT (big storm/feedback vulnerability of this push along with difficulty replenishing). A key point is getting the PDDs in the right position at the right time (you want to place them before raven dies and you don't want stalkers to just circumvent them, and if there are not many stalkers, you probably prefer well-placed autoturrets). Beware as this push dies a lot to bad positioning, especially involving ramps. But with good micro and tactical thinking/reaction I'm pretty sure it's deadlier than whatever I do with it on ladder.
On January 23 2012 03:59 Marathi wrote:
I just feel like cheesing this matchup now with 2port banshee, so I am wondering what are your priorities with the banshees? Obviously you want to get rid of SCVs building turrets and mariners, but what then. Do you go for supply/workers/engybay/starport/barracks??
Simple harass: SCV hunting.
Banshee push (real, maintained 2-port): e-bay, port addons, ports (but to shut down viking/raven production you can just supply block him if depots are exposed, which should also prevent rines; in this case you actually leave SCVs alone, you want to kill his depots as a priority and then e-bays and AA production buildings), rines as needed. Keeping banshees alive is crucial.
Smokescreen push: whatever keeps him running back and forth while you're expanding and teching or massing (e.g. battlecruisers).
Mean harass: drop with whatever (with one medivac; in my case this was typically 6 rines and a hellion), follow with a banshee (with good execution the drop was at a good timing for a drop and the banshee wasn't actually very late for a banshee). I've never seen anybody do a drop landing combined with banshee strike at the same time (essentially a marine-medivac-banshee push skipping ramp) but I'm plotting it.
Whatever you do with banshees, be aware he may well just go and kill you. Be prepared for that (which sometimes means making rines and bunkers as a mineral dump and sometimes leaving 1-2 banshees behind; whatever gas-free base defence forces turn out to be unneeded can be sent over to his base to help out the banshees if the ramp is not fortified). Twoport banshee openings easily die to timing siege pushes with like one viking or even SCVs pulled along for turret construction near your base. And defending any sort of marine/tank(/viking) push with 1-2 banshees is hard.
And be aware that opening twoport every game means losing a lot in stupid ways. Been there done that. You may end up angry again and changing the build.
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Hello.
After struggling a lot in TvP with the 1rax FE into 4 rax I saw ThisIsJeffrey's replay with the reaper expand into 5gate. I've been using this build tonight and only wins! Until this game..
http://drop.sc/96593
Its TvP on Antigua Shipyard, cross positions. I do my build and I see that he is not cheesing me. My push does LOADS of damage and he is on one base. I go up to three and I'm way ahead. Just way way ahead. I recognize his unit comp (zealot/archon), and I go mass marine ghost. Aaand I just lose. His engagements are so cost efficient. It feels so unwinnable for me these days.
I go out with a little balance whine, but nothing to harsh  I love how he isn't even looking at his army when we clash. He's just sitting there happily macroing up home at his base. Why is this possible  Anyhowz here are the one obvious mistake I feel I made in this game.
The engagement outside his three bases, I get very good emp's off and he runs away. I get eager and I want to force an engagement, because I hate lategame TvP. So he lures me into a terrible position and I can't kite or anything.
In any ways, would love some help with my TvP!
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On January 22 2012 13:00 deathtrance wrote:
what's the ratio of marine/marauder for TvP? I can't seem to find the correct ratio...
EDIT: also, is the that ratio different when vsing chargelot/archon and vsing colossus?
A lot more rines than raiders vs a zealot/archon army.
Vs more the 3 collosi, more rauders, but not pure rauders
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hey guys im a terran on NA, ranked 2 diamond. i have a masters zerg friend who is pwning me and i need to figure out how to deal with his style. basically he does 2 base mutas, then takes a 3rd. fair enough. thing is, instead of getting upgrades or different stuff with gas, this is what he does with his gas once he has mutas flying around my base. if i attack, he morphs banelings. if i dont attack, he spends 100% of his gas on mutas. he will make like 50 mutas every game. and his mutas litterally never stop moving and i need help xD
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On January 23 2012 14:20 krooked wrote:Hello. After struggling a lot in TvP with the 1rax FE into 4 rax I saw ThisIsJeffrey's replay with the reaper expand into 5gate. I've been using this build tonight and only wins! Until this game.. http://drop.sc/96593
The engagement roughly at the 20 minute mark was where it all went wrong, so you might wanna watch that again. First of all your marines were pretty badly hurt from stimming and chasing, I would give the medivacs a second to heal before I attack again. I personally don't think its a good idea to go so marine-heavy even if it does great DPS, simply because how vulnerable marines are to storms and archons. Unless you get perfect EMP's and can snipe the archons off, your army is extremely vulnerable. At least get a "buffer" of marauders to tank for you.
The biggest problem however is the positioning of your army. You simply cannot fight archons (or colossi or templar) with such a tight formation, the splash damage will just rip apart. Think of it as TvZ against banes, you have to split your infantry to minimize splash damage. Try to avoid balling up when moving around and when the engagement happens split your infantry into smaller groups right away. It will make a huge difference, oftentimes its more beneficial than using your APM on kiting. This is especially a problem for marine-heavy armies where the archon splash can hit many more units at once. If you watch Korean pros play TvP they are very active with splitting their bio into smaller groups and then kiting with individual groups.
Also, you weren't as ahead as you probably thought. You did kill the nexus but no probes which allowed the protoss to rebound pretty quickly. Zealot/archon is so ridiculously cost effective it allows for some pretty ridiculous comebacks if you give the protoss any time to recover.
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When do I start adding in Thors when meching in t v t?
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On January 23 2012 20:01 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 14:20 krooked wrote:Hello. After struggling a lot in TvP with the 1rax FE into 4 rax I saw ThisIsJeffrey's replay with the reaper expand into 5gate. I've been using this build tonight and only wins! Until this game.. http://drop.sc/96593 The engagement roughly at the 20 minute mark was where it all went wrong, so you might wanna watch that again. First of all your marines were pretty badly hurt from stimming and chasing, I would give the medivacs a second to heal before I attack again. I personally don't think its a good idea to go so marine-heavy even if it does great DPS, simply because how vulnerable marines are to storms and archons. Unless you get perfect EMP's and can snipe the archons off, your army is extremely vulnerable. At least get a "buffer" of marauders to tank for you. The biggest problem however is the positioning of your army. You simply cannot fight archons (or colossi or templar) with such a tight formation, the splash damage will just rip apart. Think of it as TvZ against banes, you have to split your infantry to minimize splash damage. Try to avoid balling up when moving around and when the engagement happens split your infantry into smaller groups right away. It will make a huge difference, oftentimes its more beneficial than using your APM on kiting. This is especially a problem for marine-heavy armies where the archon splash can hit many more units at once. If you watch Korean pros play TvP they are very active with splitting their bio into smaller groups and then kiting with individual groups. Also, you weren't as ahead as you probably thought. You did kill the nexus but no probes which allowed the protoss to rebound pretty quickly. Zealot/archon is so ridiculously cost effective it allows for some pretty ridiculous comebacks if you give the protoss any time to recover.
I realize that my engagement was absolutely terrible. My thoughts were that I did not want to give him a chance back into the game. When I killed his nat I got a third going, and I felt that I had to kill him before he reached 3/3(/3). I will try splitting more often. The reason I got so marine heavy is because I always here that I should go mass marine / ghost against zealot archon. Playing normal bio vs zealot/archon has not worked for me at all, but it might be my terrible micro as you say. It really is a painful matchup to play. But I will keep working on it *trying not to cave into 111*
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I can see why you would be in a hurry to end the game there and then, but I find that as long as you scout no colossus tech its best to wait with your attack and try to get the best possible engagement. Zealot/archon is very beatable as long as you play your cards right, I would've just pulled back and made sure he has no hidden expansions while waiting for him to attack.
One thing I forgot to mention is macro orbitals and the amount of SCVs. Once you got maxed you could've thrown a few extra CCs and sacced some SCVs, since you were floating a few thousand extra minerals. The amount of SCV you build is also important in TvP: I think it was Thorzain who said that a bit over 60 SCVs is about the right amount since TvP is all about winning that one big deathball fight, so you want to maximize your army size. Once you get 5+ orbitals running you can start saccing some as well, eventually having a 150+ supply army.
Don't give on MMM though, you have a good build and good macro, now all you need is small adjustments to your micro. It's pretty silly how MMM is regarded as a "no skill" build but there is actually a ton of micro and reacting to your opponent required. It's extremely satisfying when everything clicks into place and you manage to run circles around your a-moving protoss opponent even in the lategame.
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http://drop.sc/96683#
TvT on Antiga, he does some reaper hellion opening at the start, i go 1rax fe. Then he goes 2 cc in his base, i manage to kill his 3rd when it's up, but i still lose the game when he moves out to the middle of the map.
Should I just move my army to the middle on Antiga when I'm ahead?
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I just began Terran after around 300 games as Zerg im still in silver at this time and am looking for a decent build that i can do against all matchups. I heard Destiny say focus on doing a build until its perfect then begin to add things onto it and do better. I can react accordingly to cheese so thats no problem. and im silver so i dont want to worry about tvz tvt and tvp. Thankyou
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On January 23 2012 17:51 ReligionLOL wrote:
hey guys im a terran on NA, ranked 2 diamond. i have a masters zerg friend who is pwning me and i need to figure out how to deal with his style. basically he does 2 base mutas, then takes a 3rd. fair enough. thing is, instead of getting upgrades or different stuff with gas, this is what he does with his gas once he has mutas flying around my base. if i attack, he morphs banelings. if i dont attack, he spends 100% of his gas on mutas. he will make like 50 mutas every game. and his mutas litterally never stop moving and i need help xD
A few thors could be good. if he magic boxes, try to keep mobile so they clump up without him noticing.
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What's the correct response to this mass ling TvZ metagame?
Every time I push out to do pressure or I do drops, his upgraded zerglings just rape all my army cost efficiently. Then he techs to Infestors and completely crushes me with Ultras because his army twice as big and my Tanks are no longer effective. I feel like I have to keep doing marine drops all game long and starve him to death if it ever gets to that point and I'm still alive.
Do I need to take map control with Blue Flame Hellions and then do a midgame push so he doesn't get out of control?
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On January 23 2012 07:49 NewbieOne wrote:
Simple harass: SCV hunting.
Banshee push (real, maintained 2-port): e-bay, port addons, ports (but to shut down viking/raven production you can just supply block him if depots are exposed, which should also prevent rines; in this case you actually leave SCVs alone, you want to kill his depots as a priority and then e-bays and AA production buildings), rines as needed. Keeping banshees alive is crucial.
Smokescreen push: whatever keeps him running back and forth while you're expanding and teching or massing (e.g. battlecruisers).
Mean harass: drop with whatever (with one medivac; in my case this was typically 6 rines and a hellion), follow with a banshee (with good execution the drop was at a good timing for a drop and the banshee wasn't actually very late for a banshee). I've never seen anybody do a drop landing combined with banshee strike at the same time (essentially a marine-medivac-banshee push skipping ramp) but I'm plotting it.
Whatever you do with banshees, be aware he may well just go and kill you. Be prepared for that (which sometimes means making rines and bunkers as a mineral dump and sometimes leaving 1-2 banshees behind; whatever gas-free base defence forces turn out to be unneeded can be sent over to his base to help out the banshees if the ramp is not fortified). Twoport banshee openings easily die to timing siege pushes with like one viking or even SCVs pulled along for turret construction near your base. And defending any sort of marine/tank(/viking) push with 1-2 banshees is hard.
And be aware that opening twoport every game means losing a lot in stupid ways. Been there done that. You may end up angry again and changing the build.
Thanks, it's nice to get some priorities sorted.
I would be very grateful if something checked my replays as I don't want to have to cheese this matchup and I don't want to give up on marine/hellion elevator as it does seem quite good but to have someone explain some major flaws in my execution and follow up would be great. Aswell as a nice BO for TvT MMM 
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After doing this pressure attack against zerg, I often get alot of minerals because Im at the same time saturating my natural and have too few barracks and factorys. What's the best production to add afterward? Add two more barracks, get extra gas and a starport, another factory? I usually build a third CC when pushing aswell
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reactor_Hellion/_into_Stim_Rush_(TvZ)
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On January 23 2012 22:07 ThaSlayer wrote:
When do I start adding in Thors when meching in t v t?
I dont think thors are that useful vs bio.
Vs mech, when there are banshees/vikings and when you want to break through a siege line.
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How do i scout a zerg exactly?
Against protoss i know do the following scouting and it works really well i always know what the protoss does - it's like:
first scv scout after baracks and scout gas and chronoboost
second poke with the hidden scv at 4:35 if i see the stalker at my base
at 6:00 send the scv to scout the expansion and maybe his tech etc.. otherwise i scan his base
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But i don't know how it exactly works against zerg.
I know i should scout if they mine over 100 Gas or not? but when should i scout this?
Should i just sacrifice my first 2 hellions to see if there's a baneling nest, he mined over 100 gas or he already has a roach warren?
What are the exact timings of my "scouting"?
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On January 23 2012 22:07 ThaSlayer wrote:
When do I start adding in Thors when meching in t v t?
When you lose air dominance, or when you need to break a tank line.
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On January 24 2012 02:22 IstgG wrote:
I just began Terran after around 300 games as Zerg im still in silver at this time and am looking for a decent build that i can do against all matchups. I heard Destiny say focus on doing a build until its perfect then begin to add things onto it and do better. I can react accordingly to cheese so thats no problem. and im silver so i dont want to worry about tvz tvt and tvp. Thankyou
For learning terran, I think Drewbie's terran strat guide is great. He talks about a gasless FE for each matchup. However, that's about all they have in common and it really isn't one build for all matchups. Here's the link:
Drewbie's Strategy Guide
Honestly, I don't think 1 build for all matchups is the best way to learn/play terran. It feels like terran gets punished pretty hard for having the wrong composition (or failing to control your army correctly). Learning a build per matchup seems like a better way to get out of silver. You could have platinum-level macro, but without adapting to each matchup you'll probably just stay high silver.
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On January 23 2012 17:51 ReligionLOL wrote:
hey guys im a terran on NA, ranked 2 diamond. i have a masters zerg friend who is pwning me and i need to figure out how to deal with his style. basically he does 2 base mutas, then takes a 3rd. fair enough. thing is, instead of getting upgrades or different stuff with gas, this is what he does with his gas once he has mutas flying around my base. if i attack, he morphs banelings. if i dont attack, he spends 100% of his gas on mutas. he will make like 50 mutas every game. and his mutas litterally never stop moving and i need help xD
I don't see how the banelings are a problem for you...
Go attack, he morphs banes and you back off while expanding. Also, since he goes for 2 base mutas you can EASILY squeeze in an extra OC while on 2 base and expand at the same time. I recommend Bomber's TvZ strategy where you get so much eco in the early game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301257
Remember, marines > mutas and banelings with tank support. If you lose the fight it's usually macro faults or micro faults. Try to figure out which one and train hard to get better on that aspect.
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On January 23 2012 17:51 ReligionLOL wrote:
hey guys im a terran on NA, ranked 2 diamond. i have a masters zerg friend who is pwning me and i need to figure out how to deal with his style. basically he does 2 base mutas, then takes a 3rd. fair enough. thing is, instead of getting upgrades or different stuff with gas, this is what he does with his gas once he has mutas flying around my base. if i attack, he morphs banelings. if i dont attack, he spends 100% of his gas on mutas. he will make like 50 mutas every game. and his mutas litterally never stop moving and i need help xD
When you push, just scan and see if he's making a ton of banelings. If he is, just back off creep and retreat while you set up your third. He'll be behind on upgrades or he won't have many mutas for a long time if you make him dump 300-400 gas into banelings. It hurts more than you think for a zerg to not spend that gas on upgrades or vital mutalisks. There's no way he will attack into a fortified third base either with banelings. He won't have that third gas for awhile either if he's going for two base muta.
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EPT
