EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 122
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:37 deathtrance wrote: is marine/marauder/medivac/viking/thor/hellion/tank/ghost a viable composition against any late game zerg when properly micro'd? :D I can't see a zerg composition where so many different types of terran units are required to deal with it efficiently. To gain maximum effectiveness you need 3/3 on bio and 3/3 on mech and 3/3 on sky mech...not to mention stim/cs and siege/blue flame. Bio is easier and faster to reproduce but ideally mech/viking/ghost would be your composition. If you have enough gas to afford all of the suggested units, it'd be cheaper and more effective to use thor/hellion/tank/vik/ghost. No need for rines and rauders they'll just eat up supply and die too quickly, especially if you don't have medivacs...more gas. Part of me thinks I just fed a troll though. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:47 Badfatpanda wrote: I can't see a zerg composition where so many different types of terran units are required to deal with it efficiently. To gain maximum effectiveness you need 3/3 on bio and 3/3 on mech and 3/3 on sky mech...not to mention stim/cs and siege/blue flame. Bio is easier and faster to reproduce but ideally mech/viking/ghost would be your composition. If you have enough gas to afford all of the suggested units, it'd be cheaper and more effective to use thor/hellion/tank/vik/ghost. No need for rines and rauders they'll just eat up supply and die too quickly, especially if you don't have medivacs...more gas. Part of me thinks I just fed a troll though. great reply. but that last part was really not needed. Be nice | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:44 Sergio1992 wrote: Question: how do you deal with protoss turtling to 2 base, with an unbreakable base, pushing out with a doom deathball 200\200 3-0-3? I'd take a third base. If he's turtling hard, add some static defenses. Make use of your extra gas to get units like ghosts and vikings to counter his units. You'll also be at 200 food. Engage in a favorable defensive way using walls, bunkers, etc-- you'll have more resources with your extra base. Use a scanner sweep to see if he has more colossi or more templar/archons and adjust your number of ghosts and vikings appropriately. +1 and +2 air weapons should be possible in this time. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:34 TheDwf wrote: Sounds like an understatement to me. Drop 8 literally won me the game: he lost a key expansion because his army was out of position. If this is only “somewhat successful” for you, I wonder what is a truly successful drop (or drop play) for you? I mean, you can't expect each drop to kill an entire mineral line. Drop 1 - which was facilitated by a 3 gate expand followed by a sub-optimal build and his horrible engagement at like 22:00 was what won you that game. Your other drop play did some damage sure but it sure as hell didn't make you win that game. On January 16 2012 09:23 iAmJeffReY wrote: So three replays of not dropping and winning working is what you call a good example? You call out drops not being effective because of zealot warp ins. Meaning they have charge, a 11+ minute tech upgrade if they get it with a forge/double forge as protoss do. It STARTS at 11 minutes or later. So for 2 minutes, at least, 1)theres no HT. 2) no charge 3) no blink. If they go blink first, then obviously you back off. You don't have to avoid drops period against a 2 base protoss. You can feign and fake to draw out of position and do a stim push to the front. I don't get why you stress adding three vods of not dropping and winning as a reputable post as to why not dropping and winning is possible. Many players don't drop at all, or even play bio in TvP. I apologize for not wanting to go through the effort to flood a page with as many VODs as you can easily find of drops dismantling protoss players. Drops force mistakes and multitasking. They warp in a defensive position. They are forced to stay in their base for a longer period of time. They can't blindly move out and secure a third, or put pressure without leaving units behinds. If they push, and you drop and they warp in base... that's a whole warp cycle and mineral/gas put back to their base defense, and not into the push. And, in my games, against 'competent players' it works like a charm. I reaper FE into 5 rax pressure, fast third, delayed medics and I always split up the army and the third with drops, and get advantageous positions. Yes, I lose drop ships all the time. Some protoss react well and defend perfectly. But it's not as easy as having an HT there and a zealot warp in. HTs are a late game unit that aren't out usually anytime near drops start. People have success doing complete all ins in every matchup and get multiple GM accounts, that doesn't mean it's optimal. I don't think saying avoiding drops in TvP because of zealot warp ins, blink, and feedback is a good, or justifiable advice. There's no reason to post replays of it working, as it's generally accepted as a standard and a staple in a strong TvP style. You gain small advantages through dropping and sniping tech and structures. You're SO hung up on these three vods you posted, like it's such godly concrete proof. Why not just post 15 1-1-1s and say it's proof you don't need drops to win? There are a multitude of styles, and to be honest it's very hard to sit back and not pressure or drop a protoss and win at any level. That's why when someone asks, I suggest continuing to drop and just watching them better and feigning. I advocate reactor hellion in TvZ, but do I ever? No. I reaper expo every TvZ and branch off into 2 or 3 vastly different builds. I don't advocate it because it's my style. It's how I play, and I know it's not best, or easy. Learning to drop harass in TvP is a very viable skill that increases many many mechanics in just general game play. Being able to control multi faceted drops while moving around the map and macroing aren't easy to do, and the better you get at it, the more effective drops are. Just how many replays/vods do you want? I'm not going to crawl through every gsl and ksl game that's been played over the last month when i've already presented some of people not using drops and winning and others showing you how drops can put you behind/don't work at all. Why do I present 3 VODs? Maybe so it gives my post some credibility and so people can visually see what i'm talking about? On the other hand you appeal to generalities and no actual concrete games demonstrating how dropping works in modern TvP yet have the arrogance to criticise me for posting replays. 'Drops in my games work, here's why' 'Drops in my games DON'T work, here's why, here's a replay showing what i'm talking about' Which seems more convincing? Why do you need to post replays? Exactly because of the point I made that dropping doesn't work for me and it is rarely effective in the pro games I watch. Because it actually demonstrates that drop play still works in modern TvP instead of Jeffrey's seal of approval which is apparently all you're willing to make the effort for. I don't even get what you're on about when you start talking about the 111. If someone asks 'can I win TvP without dropping' it'd be perfectly sound to start talking about all ins, just as it's perfectly sound to start talking about not dropping to win TvP which is what this discussion has been about. In fact this entire section of your post is a collection of ridiculous comments. If people can all in to GM then the all ins they're doing will typically have some viability. Perhaps they're not completely 'optimal' but some people might have greater success playing in that fashion than, say, 40 minute macro games with drops all over the place. It's offering alternative ways of playing that work. You CAN gain small advantages, you CAN snipe key structures but that doesn't mean you WILL accomplish those things through dropping. In fact it doesn't mean you can achieve those things regularly - hence why I said I no longer drop in the first place. Dropping in TvP is one of the most common tactics used in TvP even at pro level, sure, (although I don't think it's as prevalent as it is in lower leagues). Not dropping is also prevalent and my posts have intended to demonstrate why that is the case. Last time I checked, my posts don't have some binding power that forces people to not drop anymore. They can look over the arguments and decide for themselves. Calling my advice bad when i've actually spent the time looking for games to demonstrate what i'm talking about is just ignorant. People can advocate whatever they please if it works for them at a particular level. If it works for them at a particular level then i'm pretty sure it will work for others at a similar level. In fact your condescending holier-than-thou approach is just flat out ridiculous for the reason that my point has sparked a discussion between me and some other guys which has hopefully benefitted some of the people who come into this thread. I bet some people have read what i've said and thought 'yeah I encounter that problem and maybe shouldn't drop as much any more'. I bet others have read what i've said and thought 'meh he's kinda right about this but wrong about that. Maybe I should work on doing Y to avoid X'. People have said i'm flat out wrong and given reasons why and so some people will have benefited in that way. Even this second line of this post can be nitpicked. I call out drops as not being effective because of zealot warp in OR stalkers surrounding base edges OR HTs. In that section of my post I wasn't even specifically talking about 2 base dropping, I was talking about drops in general throughout the entire game. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Resolution: It is possible to drop in TvP and be successful. It is also possible to not drop in TvP and be successful. Lots of people drop, and if you want to drop, it can be effective. There are those who do not drop as well, both all-in and not all-in. You do not need to drop to win and get better. Drops, like many other tactics, can make up part of an effective TvP strategy. We respect each other as players and as colleagues, especially Blazinghand because he is smart, funny, and brings the community together. <3. | ||
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Neddy
Australia13 Posts
Without wanting to engage in some in depth theorycrafting about the intricacies of TvZ (hence this thread I suppose), could someone confirm my suspicion that, in TvZ, you don't win by getting to his base and killing *stuff* (in this case, the given value of *stuff* includes army and structures rather than drones) but rather by slowly choking him to death, forcing him to constantly trade armies, and stopping him from having enough income to keep remaxing? To be fair, I think all games can be summed up like this, but I feel like with protoss and even terran, at least at my level, you can win an engagement and proceed to wreck his base, whereas with zerg, if you win an engagement, you still have to fall back, or his remade army will crush you and undo your advantage. TL;DR If I win an engagement with a zerg, can I ever just wander across the creep to his base and kill *stuff*, or do I need to stay put and continue slowly absorbing everything he can throw at me until he runs out of projectiles? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On January 16 2012 11:01 Neddy wrote: Ok so I've been having some issues finishing off zerg when I feel I'm ahead (platinum level). Without wanting to engage in some in depth theorycrafting about the intricacies of TvZ (hence this thread I suppose), could someone confirm my suspicion that, in TvZ, you don't win by getting to his base and killing *stuff* (in this case, the given value of *stuff* includes army and structures rather than drones) but rather by slowly choking him to death, forcing him to constantly trade armies, and stopping him from having enough income to keep remaxing? To be fair, I think all games can be summed up like this, but I feel like with protoss and even terran, at least at my level, you can win an engagement and proceed to wreck his base, whereas with zerg, if you win an engagement, you still have to fall back, or his remade army will crush you and undo your advantage. TL;DR If I win an engagement with a zerg, can I ever just wander across the creep to his base and kill *stuff*, or do I need to stay put and continue slowly absorbing everything he can throw at me until he runs out of projectiles? I think if you win an engagement by a large amount, you should take the opportunity to snipe his 4th or 3rd or whatever. This is the basic theory behind the 3 tank push-- denying the third. As the game goes on, the limiting factor for a zerg becomes not larvae but income-- you'll want to deny his bases. In any case, if you win the engagement by a large amount, you can press on and win, but often it's better to hit his economy at his outlying bases than trying to get into his main and kill tech. | ||
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Neddy
Australia13 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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Neddy
Australia13 Posts
10 depot 12 rax 13 gas OC CC when possible Factory 6 helions CC 3rd CC stays in base for a while. Orbitals when possible. Then you can do what you want. Sorry it's not very specific, I'll search for the BO on TL. He did it alot in Shoutcraft IV against Ret. They upload all their VoDs, while I know that's not great compared to a replay, but I think you could see how to do it easily enough. | ||
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bwodie
Australia41 Posts
sorry about the lack of food. can get that if people are interested depot rax OC CC rax rax gas gas tl on rax tl on rax reactor on rax combat shield stim conc ghost acadamy constant marine and marauder production. start walking army to toss's front just before 9 minutes, with two ghosts closely behind. scan, hit emps and attack with army. have found this alot harder since the emp radius change though  | ||
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segfault-
United States7 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:58 bwodie wrote: TVP I have been playing with a 1 rax fe with early ghost that i took from MarineKing back in the GSL LG Super Tournament 6 months ago. sorry about the lack of food. can get that if people are interested depot rax OC CC rax rax gas gas tl on rax tl on rax reactor on rax combat shield stim conc ghost acadamy constant marine and marauder production. start walking army to toss's front just before 9 minutes, with two ghosts closely behind. scan, hit emps and attack with army. have found this alot harder since the emp radius change though 2 base ghost timings aren't very effective after the radius nerf... You'll be lucky to emp a couple units if the protoss spreads their army at all. | ||
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TuElite
Canada2123 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:58 bwodie wrote: TVP I have been playing with a 1 rax fe with early ghost that i took from MarineKing back in the GSL LG Super Tournament 6 months ago. sorry about the lack of food. can get that if people are interested Here's a more complete food list I did of the build, if you ever need it. + Show Spoiler + MKP's 2Ghost push vs Squirtle @ GSL Super Tournament After standard depot rax rine OC, he fast 2nd depot to wall quickly. Non stop rines/scv 20 - CC 22 - Double Rax 24 - Double Gas 25 - Depot Tech Lab + Stim on second rax (Constant rines from 3 rax) 35 - Marauder 38 - Techlab + Reactor, lift OC to natural (Constant Marauders) Concussive Shells then Combat Shield 44 - Ghost Academy 62 - Start 2 Ghosts (about 8 minutes in) Enginnering Bay and resume Marauders production +1 Weapon Push @ 9:00 with 18 rines, 5 marauders, (+2 marauders just finished but not yet with the army) and 2 ghosts I also find that timing to not be as effective anymore... I'd munch rather go for a standard 1Rax FE and add my Ghosts to my army after I've taken my 4th Gas (either for a 2 Base timing or 3 Base with delayed 4th Gas for 3/3 timing). | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On January 16 2012 17:58 ThaSlayer wrote: Can anyone advice on how to deal with a 3 gate void all in after 1 rax fe? Posted a while ago but no one helped T_T Thanks Generally, I'd say to keep your units and CC inside your main. After your start your 2nd CC, add two more barracks and begin constant marine production. Take a vespene geyser, make one tech lab and continue marine production and begin researching stimpack. When you scout the void ray all-in, be wary of him using the void ray to get high-ground warpins. Pre-emptively begin making supply depots to replace your walling depots which will die. Begin a second bunker to protect your base and prevent void ray kiting. Produce marines constantly. Repair bunkers. 5 marines beat a void ray in a direct fight. | ||
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VoO
Germany278 Posts
On January 16 2012 15:19 segfault- wrote: 2 base ghost timings aren't very effective after the radius nerf... You'll be lucky to emp a couple units if the protoss spreads their army at all. If he is spread out, I make a poke. He a-clicks with his one hotkey (since he is Protoss) and dies - works around 80%. | ||
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FiNTer
Finland153 Posts
EDIT: http://starcraft2.fi/replay/showReplay.php?replay=7108 so there it is just press the Lataa button ^^ still dunno how he overrolled me after end ..... | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On January 17 2012 00:55 FiNTer wrote: Tell me how the fuck i will deal late game vs toss when he gots like 3 colossus 11 HTs and gateway units i got a replay i can send it there if some1 really wants help but im so pissed off that i lost to game cuz in my opinion my macro was lot stronger than him....... The replay would be better for specifics. Lots of ghosts and making sure you have a decent supply count of vikings, (if you don't need them, make sure you can quickly build a lot when you need to). High barracks count so you can punish Protoss strongly when they have a bad engagement. Push every single advantage you're given without overextending. Don't have a single bad engagement. That involves good spreads vs colossus play, tight ball play in chokes when there's a heavy gateway army and as perfect emps/target firing as you can manage. Having lots of ghosts is important to clear up high zealot counts as well as ensuring your army isn't stormed/all archons are EMP'd. Do your best to clear up pylons on your side of the map so your economy can't be denied. Use a medivac + 8 supply worth of units to snipe pylons on your side of the map. You have to avoid playing passive at all costs because in super late game, it can be extremely difficult to secure expnsions. | ||
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