EPTIf someone could give me the low-down on what i am looking for in Toss/terran/Zerg openers and how i can react accordingly that would be awesome. For example, if Toss has 1 gate 1 gas, how do i know its a 4 gate or a 1 gate fe if he denies scouting etc etc
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 121
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
If someone could give me the low-down on what i am looking for in Toss/terran/Zerg openers and how i can react accordingly that would be awesome. For example, if Toss has 1 gate 1 gas, how do i know its a 4 gate or a 1 gate fe if he denies scouting etc etc | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:27 SurroundSound wrote: Sorry if this has been asked in here before, its hard to look in 100's of pages. I play T at a Mid/High diamond rank. I think the two biggest things i need to improve are macro and deciphering what my opponent is doing. This leads me to kind of just macro up any old army leading into the mid game and against good players it punishes me because i did not react to their FE correctly or something like that. If someone could give me the low-down on what i am looking for in Toss/terran/Zerg openers and how i can react accordingly that would be awesome. For example, if Toss has 1 gate 1 gas, how do i know its a 4 gate or a 1 gate fe if he denies scouting etc etc If the protoss is on 1 gas, check to see if he's got a lot of chrono saved up. If he's saved up a lot of chrono, he's probably using that to 4gate you. Get your scv out before his stalker is out, then try to scout for an expo when he does his scouting poke. If he hasn't expoed by like 5:15 start bunker #2. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:25 Blazinghand wrote: 1) No gas into Reactor Hellion FE? I'm not sure what you mean by "no gas" since naturally you will be taking gasses to pay for your factory and reactor. Do you mean "No gas FE into reactor hellions? 2) Same question for build 2. Almost regardless, you'll need to produce either marines or vikings against an opponent who gets a quick starport, since there's a threat of banshees, so keep that in mind. I like the idea of a quick factory then a starport after you expand, but I wouldn't make a quick reactor like that. i mean 1 rax without gas expand and after expand then get both gas with 3 workers and then fac-> starport mvp does this style a lot in his games and he has 2 different types of this style. once he goes blue flame and sometimes he goes with a reactor hellion into cloak banshee. i would say (dont tested it until now) but my thoughts about this after watching some matches: with the reactor hellion you can defend maybe better against early bio pushs and you can pick up some marines to free up the way for the banshee. and i don't know if bf hellion is better...hope you can help me | ||
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
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glabius
46 Posts
Normally I do 1 rax FE into 4 rax marines then into gas versus protoss and I was wondering a few things.... What order should I get combat shields, stim, and concussive shells? Should I get combat shields, stim, and concussive shells before fact/starport? Should I get engineering bay/upgrades before fact/port? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:32 saaaa wrote: i mean 1 rax without gas expand and after expand then get both gas with 3 workers and then fac-> starport mvp does this style a lot in his games and he has 2 different types of this style. once he goes blue flame and sometimes he goes with a reactor hellion into cloak banshee. i would say (dont tested it until now) but my thoughts about this after watching some matches: with the reactor hellion you can defend maybe better against early bio pushs and you can pick up some marines to free up the way for the banshee. and i don't know if bf hellion is better...hope you can help me A 1 rax gasless expand into lots of hellions and quick banshees can hold off bio pushes with some facility. I wouldn't get blue flame until I had a fair number of hellions, though. Be ready to just rush for vikings though if you see your opponent going for banshees due to your low marine and barracks count. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:48 Blazinghand wrote: A 1 rax gasless expand into lots of hellions and quick banshees can hold off bio pushes with some facility. I wouldn't get blue flame until I had a fair number of hellions, though. Be ready to just rush for vikings though if you see your opponent going for banshees due to your low marine and barracks count. can u imagine why mvp does most of the time the build with bf hellions? i totally agree with you that the reactor hellion is the better option because u can pick up some marines and you are safer against bio pushes. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:37 glabius wrote: When playing as terran I have a few questions. Normally I do 1 rax FE into 4 rax marines then into gas versus protoss and I was wondering a few things.... What order should I get combat shields, stim, and concussive shells? Should I get combat shields, stim, and concussive shells before fact/starport? Should I get engineering bay/upgrades before fact/port? I start stim quickly since that applies to all my units. I get concussive and combat shields a little later. I start with 1 engineering bay upgrading, and I tech up to fact/port in time to get an armory so I can get +2 after getting +1/+1. Around this time I add my 2nd engineering bay so I can do double upgrades. On January 16 2012 06:36 SurroundSound wrote: Thanks BlazingHand...i usually FE against protoss. If protoss also FE's, is there a timing i can hit to pressure him and set up a third? I usually find myself sitting back trying to set up a third and then get smacked by his tech before i can benefit from the expo. Attacking the protoss by ground on 2 base is difficult unless he's doing something greedy. Usually what I do is get a few medivacs, then push out onto the map (Without salvaging my bunkers at home). I "poke" his front and send a medivac around the back of his main. I sort of wander around and assert map control so that he's afraid to move out, and use this to get up my third base. If he gets aggressive I just retreat and threaten to drop him-- I always try to have one medivac with 8 marines in his airspace at all times to make him leave stuff at home, like a zerg does with mutalisks in ZvT. Medivacs let you assert map control for your third. I wouldn't try to actually attack and break a 2 base protoss. though. On January 16 2012 06:52 saaaa wrote: can u imagine why mvp does the most of the time the build with bf hellions? i totally agree with you that the reactor hellion is the better option because u can pick up some marines and you are safer against bio pushes. It depends on what you scout. Mvp's TvT is the best in the world, so I'd use whatever strat he uses as long as A) it's doable with your level of mechanics and B) it fits into your style. I was under the impression Mvp opened a lot with quick banshees as well. Opening with blue flame hellions costs more gas and gives you fewer hellions. | ||
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:02 SurroundSound wrote: I have another question...When late game in TvZ...I usually have a lot of barracks with reactors and like 2-3 with tech labs. If i see ultras how do i effectively macro out marauders/ghosts into my marine ball? In order to increase your production for Marauders / Ghosts, you're probably best off making new addons for existing rax, or making new rax with tech addons. Honestly, as the zerg player approaches hive tech, I'd start adding on tech Rax anyways, since you'll be needing ghosts for BLs and Infestors, and/or Marauders for Ultras. | ||
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bwodie
Australia41 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:55 Blazinghand wrote: Attacking the protoss by ground on 2 base is difficult unless he's doing something greedy. Usually what I do is get a few medivacs, then push out onto the map (Without salvaging my bunkers at home). I "poke" his front and send a medivac around the back of his main. I sort of wander around and assert map control so that he's afraid to move out, and use this to get up my third base. If he gets aggressive I just retreat and threaten to drop him-- I always try to have one medivac with 8 marines in his airspace at all times to make him leave stuff at home, like a zerg does with mutalisks in ZvT. Medivacs let you assert map control for your third. I wouldn't try to actually attack and break a 2 base protoss. though. Alot of people have suggested you try and attack at the 9-10 minute mark before HT or Coll tech is out of hand. Obviously your strat of instead, using drops to secure a third, is just a different tactic. Whats your take on this? | ||
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aRtifiCal
Norway1 Post
So I have a question about a TvZ build. So far I've been following Drewbie's strategy guide. http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456 And I really like the TVZ timing push with 4 tanks and around 20 marines ( move out at 9:30) The only problem I have with it is that It's not always that easy to take my third. It really depends on how the push itself goes. most of the times i win the game. or atleast kill the opponents third or natural. But if the push dies horribly because of bad posistioning from me, then i feel it's hard to take my own third because of counter attacks etc. So after watching Mvp build a third CC almost every game in his GSL January Group, Bomber also did it in the day9 daily, Bomber's TvZ. So i tried to see if it was possible to build a third orbital command to get more mules and scv's and still be able to move out with 4 siege tanks and 20 marines at the 9:30 mark, apparently it is. so I included 2 replays with me doing the two variants in single player to compare differences in incomes etc http://drop.sc/92410 early third variant http://drop.sc/92408 the regular timing push . So I'm wondering if you can help me / point out weaknesses or why i shouldn't do a early CC, or if it's a good build in general. main difference i have noticed is that at the 10:00 minute mark, My income peak up to 2000 minerals, compared to the normal 1400 minerals i have, But I'm probably also alot more vulnerable in the early game i think. Also my gameplan will be to land my own third while pushing to kill his third? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:28 bwodie wrote: Alot of people have suggested you try and attack at the 9-10 minute mark before HT or Coll tech is out of hand. Obviously your strat of instead, using drops to secure a third, is just a different tactic. Whats your take on this? On maps like Shakuras or Antiga, attacking this way will likely result in Forcefields slashing your army because of the secondary ramp. Even without secondary ramp, I feel attacking at this point is difficult because of Forcefields and lack of Medivacs. This is why you see Ghosts push sometimes around this time, EMPs remove some energy from Sentries and the fight is easier. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote: b) If your medivac DIES to feedback you've just donated 10 supply. If your medivac has NO energy it's going to be cleaned up easily by warp ins. Why would a protoss care about losing 1 HT when they've just successfully defended a mining base? 2 supply is really nothing significant. 6 supply is not really that significant. Especially if it's defending a base that lets you power 4+ gateways. As far as I'm aware, most decent players don't have a problem with the deathball itself, but rather the swell of reinforcements that succeed it. d) I didn't misunderstand anything. How dumb do you think protoss players are? They can safely keep a low amount of units where you dropped and then you've got 10 supply hanging around doing nothing. Once they're on three bases they can move that small force away and rely on warp ins to clear it up. My point was exactly the same as your except i'm not advocating actually trying to drop and kill stuff, rather just load up the medivac, (or not) and put the threat of drops in the head of the protoss. e) I thought this would be obvious but maybe I was a bit unclear. YES sentries are at the front of the natural with the main army. Good forcefields against an offensive double or single pronged attack, (drop and/or front push) and the protoss doesn't care about the fact they're having to keep a few units at the back of their main. Against a decent player you're not going to dodge their stalkers because they'll be patrolling the base edge and their buildings will give vision in other places where you could drop. You're not going to be dropping marauders to 'trade quite efficiently' because the drop itself will not land. Please, with all your theorycraft, do tell what level of play are you at? I loathe the fact people only cite certain games in pro play RECENTLY where a drop hasn't worked, but the vast majority of drop harasses that still do damage and set a protoss player on their back foot are completely missed. I drop harass in TvP all the time. Do you know how hard it is for a protoss to react into time, most times, to feedback the medic. And how often is a medic actually ever have energy? They still have to warp in zealots. You run back behind buildings so only one zealot gets a hit off at a time. He has to warp in again, or deviate more units to defend a meaningless drop. Fending drops off with chargelots only means you can lift out of sight, and redrop soon again. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:28 bwodie wrote: Alot of people have suggested you try and attack at the 9-10 minute mark before HT or Coll tech is out of hand. Obviously your strat of instead, using drops to secure a third, is just a different tactic. Whats your take on this? HT and Colossus tech don't get "out of hand" unless you're undermaking ghosts and vikings. Attacking into a dude's nat unless you're on like Metalopolis or something will just get you cut in half and eaten. | ||
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shishy
United States115 Posts
For TvZ: I normally open reactor hellion expand into a 3 tank push to deny a third while I take my own and tech into starport, but I often notice that some players do the Leenock style where they go mass upgraded 1/1 zerglings which make tanks more or less useless. What's the proper response to this? I think I know how to scout this (Double evo + Macro hatch @ natural from Hellion poke). Do I just delay siege tech and go into medivacs with upgraded bio? For TvP: My build is almost always 1 rax into 3 rax and get stim -> double medivac and start poking around, dropping, and pressure the third. At this point if they have a collosi, I add another starport and get vikings, if they have ht or chargelot/archon, I get more marines and add a ghost academy and take all 6 of my gases at this point to make sure I can sustain all that production. But in general, vs protoss, when it goes to the super late game (Past 3 base), am I supposed to try and avoid direct engagements and constantly drop their fringe expansions? Because I played a few games (Just got to master league), and what i noticed was that even if I came out in an army engagement in the late game, they would have so many warpgates sustained by those bases that they could remax almost instantly with any units they wanted and beat my composition. Thanks  | ||
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hnim
United States86 Posts
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:59 iAmJeffReY wrote: Please, with all your theorycraft, do tell what level of play are you at? I loathe the fact people only cite certain games in pro play RECENTLY where a drop hasn't worked, but the vast majority of drop harasses that still do damage and set a protoss player on their back foot are completely missed. I drop harass in TvP all the time. Do you know how hard it is for a protoss to react into time, most times, to feedback the medic. And how often is a medic actually ever have energy? They still have to warp in zealots. You run back behind buildings so only one zealot gets a hit off at a time. He has to warp in again, or deviate more units to defend a meaningless drop. Fending drops off with chargelots only means you can lift out of sight, and redrop soon again. Mid-masters. For someone who both sees dropping all the time but yet rarely watches anything, the only theory crafting was conducted by you. Sure, you offer some examples of what to do, but where are the games/replays? How can I be theory crafting when i'm at least supplementing the idea that you don't have to drop in TvP with vods? DWF provided a replay of him playing drops and being somewhat successful. I didn't agree with some of his assessment of his drops but at least he made some concrete contribution to the discussion. You just sit on your high horse dismissing everything I say contrary to how you play. By all means people can link me to stuff when Terrans successfully drop against Protoss but frankly, from all the TvP I watch, it doesn't happen very often at all. It didn't happen in my games vs competent players so I abandoned it. Guy asked if it's worth dropping Protoss on 2 base - from my experience it's not. Both in my games and from what I watch of pro Starcraft. Further, both I and people in pro starcraft have success against Protoss without dropping at all, yet you condescendingly write off my advice as bad and offhand despite the fact I later complement it with replays of pro players | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
By all means people can link me to stuff when Terrans successfully drop against Protoss but frankly, from all the TvP I watch, it doesn't happen very often at all. It didn't happen in my games vs competent players so I abandoned it. Guy asked if it's worth dropping Protoss on 2 base - from my experience it's not. Both in my games and from what I watch of pro Starcraft. Further, both I and people in pro starcraft have success against Protoss without dropping at all, yet you condescendingly write off my advice as bad and offhand despite the fact I later complement it with replays of pro players So three replays of not dropping and winning working is what you call a good example? I never really drop at all in my TvPs anymore. If the protoss player is good then you're just donating units, (either to stalkers surrounding his base, high templar or zealot warp ins). Protoss players i've spoken to have said the only decent time to drop is when they are maxed out because they can't rely on warp ins to defend. In this case you're going to want to double or even triple drop the same area so that you can guarantee a nexus snipe. You can also use this opportunity to try and snipe something else with your main army. With dropping, you just have to be careful about HT's at their bases and your medivac energy. You call out drops not being effective because of zealot warp ins. Meaning they have charge, a 11+ minute tech upgrade if they get it with a forge/double forge as protoss do. It STARTS at 11 minutes or later. So for 2 minutes, at least, 1)theres no HT. 2) no charge 3) no blink. If they go blink first, then obviously you back off. You don't have to avoid drops period against a 2 base protoss. You can feign and fake to draw out of position and do a stim push to the front. I don't get why you stress adding three vods of not dropping and winning as a reputable post as to why not dropping and winning is possible. Many players don't drop at all, or even play bio in TvP. I apologize for not wanting to go through the effort to flood a page with as many VODs as you can easily find of drops dismantling protoss players. Drops force mistakes and multitasking. They warp in a defensive position. They are forced to stay in their base for a longer period of time. They can't blindly move out and secure a third, or put pressure without leaving units behinds. If they push, and you drop and they warp in base... that's a whole warp cycle and mineral/gas put back to their base defense, and not into the push. And, in my games, against 'competent players' it works like a charm. I reaper FE into 5 rax pressure, fast third, delayed medics and I always split up the army and the third with drops, and get advantageous positions. Yes, I lose drop ships all the time. Some protoss react well and defend perfectly. But it's not as easy as having an HT there and a zealot warp in. HTs are a late game unit that aren't out usually anytime near drops start. People have success doing complete all ins in every matchup and get multiple GM accounts, that doesn't mean it's optimal. I don't think saying avoiding drops in TvP because of zealot warp ins, blink, and feedback is a good, or justifiable advice. There's no reason to post replays of it working, as it's generally accepted as a standard and a staple in a strong TvP style. You gain small advantages through dropping and sniping tech and structures. You're SO hung up on these three vods you posted, like it's such godly concrete proof. Why not just post 15 1-1-1s and say it's proof you don't need drops to win? There are a multitude of styles, and to be honest it's very hard to sit back and not pressure or drop a protoss and win at any level. That's why when someone asks, I suggest continuing to drop and just watching them better and feigning. I advocate reactor hellion in TvZ, but do I ever? No. I reaper expo every TvZ and branch off into 2 or 3 vastly different builds. I don't advocate it because it's my style. It's how I play, and I know it's not best, or easy. Learning to drop harass in TvP is a very viable skill that increases many many mechanics in just general game play. Being able to control multi faceted drops while moving around the map and macroing aren't easy to do, and the better you get at it, the more effective drops are. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 09:01 Absentia wrote: DWF provided a replay of him playing drops and being somewhat successful. I didn't agree with some of his assessment of his drops but at least he made some concrete contribution to the discussion. Sounds like an understatement to me. Drop 8 literally won me the game: he lost a key expansion because his army was out of position. If this is only “somewhat successful” for you, I wonder what is a truly successful drop (or drop play) for you? I mean, you can't expect each drop to kill an entire mineral line. | ||
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