EPTAgainst blink stalkers, fine you are right, but that doesn't happen every single game.
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 120
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Against blink stalkers, fine you are right, but that doesn't happen every single game. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Feel free to disagree with my philosophy on not-dropping but there's plenty of reasons NOT to want to drop. In a standard game, I see only two actually: if the Protoss player, while still on two bases, specifically opened Blink Stalkers to deal with drops, and maybe very large maps (Calm before the Storm, which is a retarded 3-base turtle Protoss map anyway, Daybreak to some extent, perhaps TDA too) in which it's harder to threaten an effective attack with your main army while you're dropping somewhere else. Anyway, what do mismicroed drops tell us about the power of drops? Nothing. Because you lost your initial Hellions against Zerg through carelessness or inattention does not mean those Hellions aren't part of a great opening. If it happens that your drops fly right above waiting Stalkers, it simply means you should have paid closer attention, not that “dropping is bad because it donates supply for nothing”. Like Hellions against Zerg, drops don't have to do damage; they scout, put pressure, force reactions from your opponents (i. e. splitting his army, thefore making him uncomfortable for him to move out / secure a third / etc.). It's like the chess motto: “The threat is stronger than the execution”. Sure, while on two bases it's unlikely the Protoss will lose much to your drops—still, it makes him play more cautious. Maybe he wanted to skip a warp-in cycle to get his dual forge faster, maybe he will have to delay it a bit now that he knows you're pressuring him. Protoss have some trouble securing thirds, and forcing him to split his army to defend possible drops underlines this vulnerability. Since you dropped him, he's worried about your Medivac coming back and thus has to let some supply near his mineral lines, but he cannot know if your Medivac(s) are still somewhere in the shadows or back with your main army with their cargo to push his third (in which case he'll be caught out of position since he'll have like 10-20 supply in the back). Overall, drops make his play less easy/comfortable, so why not take advantange of this? | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On January 16 2012 02:19 Willzzz wrote: KawaiiRice was just talking about that 1 game. Protoss doesn't always go for blink stalkers, quite often they go charge first, or spend most of most of their gas on immortals/colossi or archons. Against blink stalkers, fine you are right, but that doesn't happen every single game. I didn't mean to imply anything else. Of course he was talking about that game and not drops in general. I was just responding to Jeffrey using the game vs Noblesse to undermine what I was saying. Not going to generalise about protoss build orders. Drops will inevitably be better against some builds than others in different ways than others, (e.g. robo first gives a better chance of scouting incoming drops than charge/blink first but will be less able at dealing with them without preparation). Not quite sure if I'd give the heads up to charge/blink first, particularly when korean protoss seem to be going blink first primarily. Friends i've spoken to said it's more map dependant than anything else. On January 16 2012 02:19 TheDwf wrote: I see only two actually: if the Protoss player, while still on two bases, specifically opened Blink Stalkers to deal with drops, and maybe very large maps (Calm before the Storm, which is a retarded 3-base turtle Protoss map anyway, Daybreak to some extent, perhaps TDA too) in which it's harder to threaten an effective attack with your main army while you're dropping somewhere else. Anyway, what do mismicroed drops tell us about the power of drops? Nothing. Because you lost your initial Hellions against Zerg through carelessness or inattention does not mean those Hellions aren't part of a great opening. If it happens that your drops fly right above waiting Stalkers, it simply means you should have paid closer attention, not that “dropping is bad because it donates supply for nothing”. Like Hellions against Zerg, drops don't have to do damage; they scout, put pressure, force reactions from your opponents (i. e. splitting his army, thefore making him uncomfortable for him to move out / secure a third / etc.). It's like the chess motto: “The threat is stronger than the execution”. Sure, while on two bases it's unlikely the Protoss will lose much to your drops—still, it makes him play more cautious. Maybe he wanted to skip a warp-in cycle to get his dual forge faster, maybe he will have to delay it a bit now that he knows you're pressuring him. Protoss have some trouble securing thirds, and forcing him to split his army to defend possible drops underlines this vulnerability. Since you dropped him, he's worried about your Medivac coming back and thus has to let some supply near his mineral lines, but he cannot know if your Medivac(s) are still somewhere in the shadows or back with your main army with their cargo to push his third (in which case he'll be caught out of position since he'll have like 10-20 supply in the back). Overall, drops make his play less easy/comfortable, so why not take advantange of this? You can watch pro players losing drops all the time. Especially when High Templars pop and you can 1-shot medivacs with feedback and at worst make them useless at healing vs warp in defence. Yes, losing medivacs is most of the time a result of mis-micro but if players like MVP make micro errors (forced or not) and lose medivacs, how badly do you think that's going to work out for master players? The whole passive aggressive thing with drops is fine but if you're using that as an argument you have, (or perhaps I have) changed the nature of the discussion from 'actual dropping' to 'potential of dropping'. Is threatening to drop worthwhile? Yeah sure, at least on two bases. Is actually aiming to do damage with drops worthwhile? Not enough for me to do it in my games. I'd prefer to just poke around with the extra medivac. Further, you can't exaggerate the threat drops present. I can stick 4 stalkers in my main to snipe the medivac before/just after it lands and rely on warp ins to help clear up. With decent forcefields I'm unlikely to care about missing 4 stalkers, (which are unlikely to be fight changing anyway). | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
but i'm not sure about these 2 options: 1. No Gas into Reactor Hellion FE into Cloak Banshee 2. No Gas into BF Hellion into Cloak Banshee I think that a reactor hellion fe is way easier and safer and dont delay the banshee by a long time. What do you think about this builds? | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
You will want to get gas before expand. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:03 Willzzz wrote: Against who? Zerg? You will want to get gas before expand. oh sry :D i mean TvT | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: You can watch pro players losing drops all the time. So? Pro players make mistakes too—not as much as lesser skilled players, obviously, but still. On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Especially when High Templars pop and you can 1-shot medivacs with feedback and at worst make them useless at healing vs warp in defence. And how many times do you see that High Templar dying right after this Feedback? This means you won't see him Storming your army two minuts later, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. Besides, you can use new Medivacs to drop, they won't be one-shot by Feedback. You shouldn't underestimate the fact you're forcing the Protoss player to leave one High Templar behind at each base. For each Templar he leaves behind, this is 2 less supply in his army, and 2 supply that can be quite effective... On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Yes, losing medivacs is most of the time a result of mis-micro but if players like MVP make micro errors (forced or not) and lose medivacs, how badly do you think that's going to work out for master players? Master players play against lesser opponents, which will likely have a (much) worse defence. And I can talk from experience here... On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Is threatening to drop worthwhile? You misunderstood me. I was speaking about the situation in which you retreat your drop whenever the Protoss comes to defend it, and let the Medivac(s) idle out of sight, waiting for the right opportunity to come back. This is the threat I was talking about, not simply producing Medivacs and thus being able to drop. On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Further, you can't exaggerate the threat drops present. I can stick 4 stalkers in my main to snipe the medivac before/just after it lands and rely on warp ins to help clear up. With decent forcefields I'm unlikely to care about missing 4 stalkers, (which are unlikely to be fight changing anyway). Why are you talking about Forcefields? Sentries should be with their main army in front of his natural. And you can trade quite efficiently against Stalkers if your drop landed, especially if you had Marauders in it. If you're dropping in sight / under fire of his Stalkers, you're once again doing it wrong, and you can't blame drops in general for your mistake. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On January 16 2012 02:51 Absentia wrote: I didn't mean to imply anything else. Of course he was talking about that game and not drops in general. I was just responding to Jeffrey using the game vs Noblesse to undermine what I was saying. Not going to generalise about protoss build orders. Drops will inevitably be better against some builds than others in different ways than others, (e.g. robo first gives a better chance of scouting incoming drops than charge/blink first but will be less able at dealing with them without preparation). Not quite sure if I'd give the heads up to charge/blink first, particularly when korean protoss seem to be going blink first primarily. Friends i've spoken to said it's more map dependant than anything else. The Noblesse game is still a good example. Yes he made mistake by engaging at 14:00 but if Bischu can make a mistake like that so can anyone else. Long story short, your strategy should depend on what your opponent does. You should be on the lookout for when your opponent has made a mistake/been greedy and you can punish it with drops. But you shouldn't assume you can rely on drops every game. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:08 TheDwf wrote: So? Pro players make mistakes too—not as much as lesser skilled players, obviously, but still. And how many times do you see that High Templar dying right after this Feedback? This means you won't see him Storming your army two minuts later, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. Besides, you can use new Medivacs to drop, they won't be one-shot by Feedback. You shouldn't underestimate the fact you're forcing the Protoss player to leave one High Templar behind at each base. For each Templar he leaves behind, this is 2 less supply in his army, and 2 supply that can be quite effective... Master players play against lesser opponents, which will likely have a (much) worse defence. And I can talk from experience here... You misunderstood me. I was speaking about the situation in which you retreat your drop whenever the Protoss comes to defend it, and let the Medivac(s) idle out of sight, waiting for the right opportunity to come back. This is the threat I was talking about, not simply producing Medivacs and thus being able to drop. Why are you talking about Forcefields? Sentries should be with their main army in front of his natural. And you can trade quite efficiently against Stalkers if your drop landed, especially if you had Marauders in it. If you're dropping in sight / under fire of his Stalkers, you're once again doing it wrong, and you can't blame drops in general for your mistake. b) If your medivac DIES to feedback you've just donated 10 supply. If your medivac has NO energy it's going to be cleaned up easily by warp ins. Why would a protoss care about losing 1 HT when they've just successfully defended a mining base? 2 supply is really nothing significant. 6 supply is not really that significant. Especially if it's defending a base that lets you power 4+ gateways. As far as I'm aware, most decent players don't have a problem with the deathball itself, but rather the swell of reinforcements that succeed it. d) I didn't misunderstand anything. How dumb do you think protoss players are? They can safely keep a low amount of units where you dropped and then you've got 10 supply hanging around doing nothing. Once they're on three bases they can move that small force away and rely on warp ins to clear it up. My point was exactly the same as your except i'm not advocating actually trying to drop and kill stuff, rather just load up the medivac, (or not) and put the threat of drops in the head of the protoss. e) I thought this would be obvious but maybe I was a bit unclear. YES sentries are at the front of the natural with the main army. Good forcefields against an offensive double or single pronged attack, (drop and/or front push) and the protoss doesn't care about the fact they're having to keep a few units at the back of their main. Against a decent player you're not going to dodge their stalkers because they'll be patrolling the base edge and their buildings will give vision in other places where you could drop. You're not going to be dropping marauders to 'trade quite efficiently' because the drop itself will not land. | ||
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Bro_Stone
United States510 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38205 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:42 Bro_Stone wrote: How do you make an scv go into a bunker that's been damaged? select bunker -> load -> click scv | ||
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siii
Norway251 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote:b) If your medivac DIES to feedback you've just donated 10 supply. Which is not game-breaking. People lose full drops against Mutalisks (or even Infestors) all the time too in TvZ. No risk, no possible reward. On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote:b) If your medivac has NO energy it's going to be cleaned up easily by warp ins. Why would a protoss care about losing 1 HT when they've just successfully defended a mining base? First, stop considering all his Warpgates are always available. Most of them could be on cooldown. You don't know. Second, if you don't see that killing a 150-gas High Templar while losing nothing (since the Protoss will likely warp-in Zealots, you can simply pick up your troops against that if your Medivac has 0 energy) is a good trade, I can't anything for you. Besides, you can sometimes get some or most of his warp-in troops, especially when you dual drop. Warp-ins are not always enough to deal with drops, sometimes they're just here to buy time so he can bring other reinforcements; it simply depends on the situation. On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote: 2 supply is really nothing significant. 6 supply is not really that significant. Right, which is probably we Terrans are so eager to get macro OCs in order to get rid of SCVs to have a bigger army size. Every supply counts, especially Templar supply which can deal hundreds of damage to your army. (You don't always have perfect EMPs.) Small advantages add up, you know. Besides, you also force some Cannons, which are the same price as a Warpgate. Just saying. On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote: d) I didn't misunderstand anything. How dumb do you think protoss players are? They can safely keep a low amount of units where you dropped and then you've got 10 supply hanging around doing nothing. Once they're on three bases they can move that small force away and rely on warp ins to clear it up. Except there may be some big battle going around their third at this time; or their Warpgates may be on cooldown because they recently warped some troops to defend their third; or you can micro your drop to deal some free damage before picking up; etc. On January 16 2012 03:33 Absentia wrote: e) I thought this would be obvious but maybe I was a bit unclear. YES sentries are at the front of the natural with the main army. Good forcefields against an offensive double or single pronged attack, (drop and/or front push) and the protoss doesn't care about the fact they're having to keep a few units at the back of their main. Sentries don't have infinite energy, and Protoss would prefer not to get many of them in order to build their gas-heavy units that deal real damage. Players may mismicro Forcefields (how many times do you see Protoss players, even at pro level, make too many Forcefields because they're kind of panicked by the multi-pronged attack?). If they're looking at your drop, they're not looking at the battle, and vice versa. But why bother to try anyway, since apparently all Protoss are perfect robots in defending drops? On January 16 2012 03:42 Bro_Stone wrote: How do you make an scv go into a bunker that's been damaged? Use the Load hotkey. On January 16 2012 03:48 siii wrote: How do you scout the 2 base roach timing coming? If you're talking about 28 Roach Warren and are using a Reactor Hellion opening, you will see no Spine when your Hellions arrive at his natural, and you will see Roaches around 6'30. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
it seems like you are either a troll or someone who has never played protoss against any half-decent terran opponents. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
Your arguments basically amount to; 'Well I hope he doesn't have units defending where I went to drop' and 'Well I hope his warpgates are on cooldown' People I play against rarely neglect the former and the latter is just a coin flip manoeuvre. Nobody has to play perfect to defend against drop play. If you take adequate precautions, you're not taking any damage from drops. Who cares about sacrificing two supply from your main army if it helps keep an entire base running, (and hence more production running). You don't seem to care about having 10 supply hanging around doing nothing. Do we care about keeping a thor in our main if it stops muta harrass entirely? Pretty sure terrans don't drop mass OCs to gain 6 supply in army. More like 20+...that's when we can call supply count significant. @ThePianoDentist Please spend more time actually reading what i've typed this entire time. Also please spend some time watching any of the vods I referenced to supplement what i'm arguing instead of ignorantly calling me a troll. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
It's not like those stupid thors which don't have an energy dump. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 16 2012 04:36 Absentia wrote: Losing early medivacs in TvP can be absolutely game breaking. Your arguments basically amount to; 'Well I hope he doesn't have units defending where I went to drop' and 'Well I hope his warpgates are on cooldown' People I play against rarely neglect the former and the latter is just a coin flip manoeuvre. Nobody has to play perfect to defend against drop play. If you take adequate precautions, you're not taking any damage from drops. Who cares about sacrificing two supply from your main army if it helps keep an entire base running, (and hence more production running). You don't seem to care about having 10 supply hanging around doing nothing. Do we care about keeping a thor in our main if it stops muta harrass entirely? Pretty sure terrans don't drop mass OCs to gain 6 supply in army. More like 20+...that's when we can call supply count significant. @ThePianoDentist Please spend more time actually reading what i've typed this entire time. Also please spend some time watching any of the vods I referenced to supplement what i'm arguing instead of ignorantly calling me a troll. http://drop.sc/89820 High Master Europe game I played some time ago. Not pro level, so obviously many mistakes, but let's see how drops went against a standard Colossi ⟶ dual Forge ⟶ Templar tech macro game. Drop 1: [first Medivac] I could probably have done game-ending damage right here if I had done it better. Situation of Warpgates: not on cooldown, but he has not enough minerals to warp 3 units (see? it's more complex than “lol Protoss warps and laughs at you”). I could have destroyed the Robotics Bay researching Extended Thermal Lance. Outcome: 15 probes dead (which means I could probably have ended the game much earlier with better play), 2 pylons destroyed. His mistakes: no spotting Pylon near the edge of his base, pulling the whole army. Drop 2: [the initial Medivac comes back] Outcome: Robotics Bay destroyed, one Stalker dead (could have killed a second Stalker). Meanwhile, I lost some of my troops in front of his natural, but he used 6 Forcefields and one Guardian Shield. His mistakes: he should have sent at least one unit near the edge of his base, but stayed behind his mineral line because the Medivac could have dropped right here, hidden from his sight. Drop 3: [17' mark] Outcome: Lost the Medivac for nothing, because I was not paying attention. My mistake, though his Stalker position was of course right. Dropping three times in a row in the same place was bad play from me, I should have sent it behind his mineral line using the edge of the map to conceal my Medivac from him. Drop 4: [19' mark] His Warpgates are not on cooldown, his Stalkers come as soon as possible. He uses warp-ins. Outcome: 6 Stalkers, 8 Zealots and Templar Archive against one Medivac, 3 Marauders and 3 Marines. He starts building Cannons near his mineral lines. Drop 5: [20'30 mark, surviving Medivac] Outcome: one Marauder against 5 Probes. Drop 6: [21'15 mark, still surviving Medivac] Outcome: one High Templar sniped. Drop 7: [21'50 mark, again surviving Medivac and one fresh follow] He uses Feedback on one Medivac and his main army is near. What happens? I pick up and drop elsewhere. A battle ensues, so I do not micro this drop and lose them to warp-ins + a Colossus. Outcome: lost 2 Medivacs for one Zealot or something like that. Note that one of those Medivacs was the Drop 4 / 5 / 6 Medivac, so he had already more than paid for itself. Drop 8: [25'10 mark, three Medivacs] I drop near 2 Cannons, and he immediately uses 4 warp-ins (his 3 other Warpgates being in cooldown). Outcome: he defends with his main army, which means I could have killed one of his expands meanwhile (see what happens at 26'15). Note that to defend 3 full Medivacs only with warp-ins, he would really need many Warpgates. I pick up and leave with some casualities. Drop 9: [25'40 mark, two badly injured Medivacs] Bad multitasking from me, seems I had forgotten about this drop. I lose one Medivac to Feedback (and only because I used an injured one), but it was already empty. I kill one High Templar, one Cannon and one Zealot. Not the best trade, admittedly. Note how I snipe his third by the 26'15 mark because his army is out of position since he had to deal with Drop 8. Note how there are many threats for him, which is probably why he didn't Storm with his Templars left behind at his third; he was worried about drop 8 coming back and killing his Warpgates. You will probably tell me these are all mistakes from him. But truth is, no one plays perfect under pressure. No one. This is why drops are good, even though they're not always successful. Drops generate pressure, pressure creates opportunities for mistakes, and eventually mistakes happen and you lose the game. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On January 16 2012 02:56 saaaa wrote: i want to add a fast expansion build and continue this with a cloak banshee play in my strategie mix. but i'm not sure about these 2 options in TvT: 1. No Gas into Reactor Hellion FE into Cloak Banshee 2. No Gas into BF Hellion into Cloak Banshee I think that a reactor hellion fe is way easier and safer and dont delay the banshee by a long time. What do you think about this builds? | ||
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
On January 16 2012 01:54 Absentia wrote: Comment from a couple of days ago. Might be good to make up your mind first. Seeing it all the time =/= dropping works. You doing it all the time =/= dropping works. If I watch Taeja's stream, he'll drop with his first 3 medivacs, if at all, and then never drop again the whole game. SC vs Parting Double drops once the whole game Loses 1 medivac for nothing Loses majority of one drop for a couple of probes Thorzain vs Socke yesterday @ SCI Sound vs MC on Terminus @ Homestory Donate supply MVP vs Parting @ 54:00 onwards particularly at 56:40 2 Medivacs sniped for maybe 5 probes @ natural? Not a great success for 4 base protoss. How often did you see Bomber drop Oz/Inca when he played in GSL? How about here? MC vs ForGG on Belshir AND Daybreak ForGG ends up donating 2 medivacs worth of units for nothing. Feel free to disagree with my philosophy on not-dropping but there's plenty of reasons NOT to want to drop. There's plenty of players who don't drop at all and have success and there's plenty of players who DO drop and end up donating supply as a result. They are easy to shut down with a templar and some zealots, yes, but that requires the Protoss to be leaving units in his base and if the Terran is sensitive to that he/she should just not be commiting the medivac far in at all - if you can't damage with drops you can probably still use them to partially contain him. It functions the same from the Protoss angle with warp prisms - if he's leaving bio in his base to defend from it, keep it alive and keep it a threat. There are virtually no Protoss in the world who are going to be covered from drops everywhere so generally there will be a safe place somewhere to drop and snipe a pylon or some probes and leave - it's up to the Terran to find and exploit it if he really wants to commit to harass. I will agree that bio builds (typically FE into 3 rax medivacs) that are approaching dependence on drop harass are not very strong at all against a turtling Protoss (or a Zerg, or a Terran...), but on the flip side using builds which do not include harass at all I wouldn't consider particularly strong | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Is it possible to drop poorly? certainly. But dropping becomes more and more important as the game goes on. Obviously if you let your medivacs sit at high energy and don't retreat in time you can get feedbacked, blinkstalkered, what have you-- but it's on you the Terran to make drops work. 1) No gas into Reactor Hellion FE? I'm not sure what you mean by "no gas" since naturally you will be taking gasses to pay for your factory and reactor. Do you mean "No gas FE into reactor hellions? 2) Same question for build 2. Almost regardless, you'll need to produce either marines or vikings against an opponent who gets a quick starport, since there's a threat of banshees, so keep that in mind. I like the idea of a quick factory then a starport after you expand, but I wouldn't make a quick reactor like that. | ||
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