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On January 15 2012 02:25 blackberry_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 09:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I'd suggest, to bwall, rax CC rax rax rax gas (gas if it's you) What are some differences between rax cc 3rax gas and rax cc 2rax gas in TvP? Of the top of your head, against which all-ins do the 3rax and 4rax variants auto-lose? (or make it incredibly tough to get back in the game)
It's not a matter of what they lose to. It's getting more production early, as you can safely do so, as opposed to crunch time throwing down 2 more barracks, then addons. But, for me personally, I stopped 3 rax because of 3 gate robo, and 3 gate VR. I wasn't able to field enough units, and 3 gate robo doesn't matter if you have medics, they don't do nearly as much as just having more stuff.
I've always been an advocate for early production massing.
I'd say, though, 3 rax lets you tech faster as you get 2nd gas earlier. 4 rax lets you field units, and slows down tech, but not ungodly. 5 rax lets you pressure pressure pressure.
And most 4 rax total after gasless to be able to do the follow up protoss check, aka the 15+ marine poke to the protoss natural.
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I'm sick and tired of losing to the worst fucking noobs to ever play this game. This guy went 7 gate/robo/charge/templar tech OFF OF 1 FUCKING BASE AND WON. Protoss is such bullshit that you can spend so much useless money on so many production facilities you can't support and just no-micro to a victory. This guy didn't need to micro his units at all, he didn't need to scout, he just herpaderped to a victory. I knew what he was doing, I was prepared, and I still lost easily. I'm so tired of this shit and it's impossible to play this race even against people that suck.
http://drop.sc/91664
User was warned for this post
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On January 15 2012 02:41 upperbound wrote:I'm sick and tired of losing to the worst fucking noobs to ever play this game. This guy went 7 gate/robo/charge/templar tech OFF OF 1 FUCKING BASE AND WON. Protoss is such bullshit that you can spend so much useless money on so many production facilities you can't support and just no-micro to a victory. This guy didn't need to micro his units at all, he didn't need to scout, he just herpaderped to a victory. I knew what he was doing, I was prepared, and I still lost easily. I'm so tired of this shit and it's impossible to play this race even against people that suck. http://drop.sc/91664
Okay. Bad map to drop CC at natural, first thing. And then letting him scout it, not good.
7minutes, you poke his natural and see no expo. That's 100% tech/all in. You make it IN HIS BASE! See only 1 stalker, and twlight.
Right now, you pull your 16 marines and go poke him.
Let's see. He has 1 base. 5 zeals, 1 stalker, 1 sentry, 1 warpprism. All 5 zeals are in your mineral line. You have two bases, he does not. Use SCVs. Use them. Attack, stop, attack, stop, fuck up the zeal AI as your infantry micros behind.
You have 16 marines, 2 marauders at your natural sitting, doing nothing. You see the warp prism for the whole time, and yet have not gone to kill it. You see chargelots, stop making so many marauders. You need more barracks now, with 2 base, 4 won't cut it..not without a reactor at least.
Why you lost -- You handled his botched noob attack badly. You didn't engage at all well. Pull scvs, unify them with your army, as a ball engage everything, then secure yourself. You have 1.2k minerals 100 gas. Maybe...make 3-4 bunkers, as you know he's on 1 base, with charge.
You know he's on one base. Once you know that, bunker up. Prepare for some cheese as he did. It's simple as that. You don't gasless FE, and not bunker. Your I was 'prepared for it' was a joke. He had like 9 zealots in your main completely dominate you as your army sat at the natural. You weren't prepared. You didn't handle it well. Your micro was non existent. You float OC energy almost all game.
Short protip. Chargelost are melee. Put up 2-3 bunkers, get medics out, and just stay on 2 base defensive as you drop harass. Your 2 base. He's one. You have +1, and stim and shields, with 2 OCs. When you see a prism sitting there, it's okay to go kill it. You are allowed to lift off your natural in a bad situation. Sitting with your army at your natural while 3 marauders try to kill 5 chargelots won't cut it.
Again, this is why I'm such an advocate against gasless FE for anyone that doesn't understand how to scout, and react subsequently. Seeing 1 base protoss, and twlight, should get a turret up right away, in case of DTs. Early charge shouldn't be an issue, as he has no upgrades beyond that. You gasless FE'd without knowing the proper follow up for what you saw. Don't blindly 1 rax FE 'macro game' because you will lose to stupid stuff like this until you understand what you scout, and how to react. Bad map for gasless FE too, IMO.
I'd personally reaper FE, or straight up 1-1-1 on it.
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On January 15 2012 02:41 upperbound wrote:I'm sick and tired of losing to the worst fucking noobs to ever play this game. This guy went 7 gate/robo/charge/templar tech OFF OF 1 FUCKING BASE AND WON. Protoss is such bullshit that you can spend so much useless money on so many production facilities you can't support and just no-micro to a victory. This guy didn't need to micro his units at all, he didn't need to scout, he just herpaderped to a victory. I knew what he was doing, I was prepared, and I still lost easily. I'm so tired of this shit and it's impossible to play this race even against people that suck. http://drop.sc/91664User was warned for this post
You showed him you were 1rax FE just before his probe died. Sometimes that's all the info you need if you want to go for a 1base heavy aggression style play.
You only threw up one bunker at your main entrance and then another one next to your barracks, for some reason, which is hardly adequate imo.
You didn't react properly to his archons otherwise you would've had ghosts out or at least be in the process of getting them.
I don't know what you mean by he didn't micro his units? Just because his units didn't have abilities like stim which he had to press whilst he moved them doesn't mean he didn't micro them. He pulled his zealots away from your bunker and made sure to focus your marauders with them. When he went for his final move he didn't just sit there and rape your expo, he left his archons to clean up your SCVs whilst his zealots chased and cleaned down the rest of your army.
edit:
aaaah Jeffrey's reply is probably better than mine *rollseyes*
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On January 15 2012 02:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 02:25 blackberry_ wrote:On January 14 2012 09:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I'd suggest, to bwall, rax CC rax rax rax gas (gas if it's you) What are some differences between rax cc 3rax gas and rax cc 2rax gas in TvP? Of the top of your head, against which all-ins do the 3rax and 4rax variants auto-lose? (or make it incredibly tough to get back in the game) It's not a matter of what they lose to. It's getting more production early, as you can safely do so, as opposed to crunch time throwing down 2 more barracks, then addons. But, for me personally, I stopped 3 rax because of 3 gate robo, and 3 gate VR. I wasn't able to field enough units, and 3 gate robo doesn't matter if you have medics, they don't do nearly as much as just having more stuff. I've always been an advocate for early production massing. I'd say, though, 3 rax lets you tech faster as you get 2nd gas earlier. 4 rax lets you field units, and slows down tech, but not ungodly. 5 rax lets you pressure pressure pressure. And most 4 rax total after gasless to be able to do the follow up protoss check, aka the 15+ marine poke to the protoss natural.
I'll switch to the 4 rax variant because it seems a bit safer. I've always liked the idea of making units and delaying tech until you absolutely need it.
Early production massing is an interesting idea. Terran buildings take forever to set up (w/ add-ons).
In your experience, around what time is a relatively "safe" moment to build add-ons (using 4 rax) against a:
1) FE
2) one gas one base
3) two gas one base
There are many other scenarios, but I feel these are the most common ones.
Also, how do you play 4 rax against a blink stalker all-in (w or w/o obs)? Float the OC in base? Defend the nat? Bunkers everywhere?
Thanks for answering my questions iAmJeffReY 
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On January 15 2012 03:10 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Bad map for gasless FE too, IMO.
This.
2 rax is another option on this map.
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I was watching the GSL recently and the casters were talking about a new aggressive TvP build going around in Korea. It's a marauder hellion push. I've done a couple times myself with good success but I haven't figured out exactly what to do after the push. I only saw the one game where it was done so I am essentially free-styling it. I was wondering if any one was familiar with this build and could point me to some replays or other resources about it.
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On January 14 2012 09:09 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in? Well I do lots of different stuff, but almost always get at least 1 gas before adding on rax. Very often I go double gas before adding rax and still hold 4gate. You just have to buy time until your first medivacs come out and then the tides suddenly turn. I tend to find the early aggression builds quite rare on ladder. I'm masters.
EU or NA? I'm also masters (on EU) and about every other frickin toss does some hard aggression to me, and I havet trouble seeing you defend every allin they throw at you. How do you manage against blink+obs allin?
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On January 15 2012 03:19 blackberry_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 02:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 15 2012 02:25 blackberry_ wrote:On January 14 2012 09:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I'd suggest, to bwall, rax CC rax rax rax gas (gas if it's you) What are some differences between rax cc 3rax gas and rax cc 2rax gas in TvP? Of the top of your head, against which all-ins do the 3rax and 4rax variants auto-lose? (or make it incredibly tough to get back in the game) It's not a matter of what they lose to. It's getting more production early, as you can safely do so, as opposed to crunch time throwing down 2 more barracks, then addons. But, for me personally, I stopped 3 rax because of 3 gate robo, and 3 gate VR. I wasn't able to field enough units, and 3 gate robo doesn't matter if you have medics, they don't do nearly as much as just having more stuff. I've always been an advocate for early production massing. I'd say, though, 3 rax lets you tech faster as you get 2nd gas earlier. 4 rax lets you field units, and slows down tech, but not ungodly. 5 rax lets you pressure pressure pressure. And most 4 rax total after gasless to be able to do the follow up protoss check, aka the 15+ marine poke to the protoss natural. I'll switch to the 4 rax variant because it seems a bit safer. I've always liked the idea of making units and delaying tech until you absolutely need it. Early production massing is an interesting idea. Terran buildings take forever to set up (w/ add-ons). In your experience, around what time is a relatively "safe" moment to build add-ons (using 4 rax) against a: 1) FE 2) one gas one base 3) two gas one base There are many other scenarios, but I feel these are the most common ones. Also, how do you play 4 rax against a blink stalker all-in (w or w/o obs)? Float the OC in base? Defend the nat? Bunkers everywhere? Thanks for answering my questions iAmJeffReY
I'll be honest, I don't 1 rax gasless FE in TvP at all often anymore. The way many maps lay out, it's so SO hard to do any early aggression with the double ramps. Few sentries let the protoss tech WAY too greedily on these double ramp maps. >_< So honestly, this is why I haven't answered your questions.
I do, however, reaper expand into 3 rax or 5 rax every TvP I play recently. So I can base it off that, so to speak.
1) I personally add them on slowly. I go 1 tech lab, 4 naked rax. Then, 1 reactor 1 tech lab, 3 naked until I can put a firm finger on what route the protoss is going. Sometimes, if they are being too greedy on an open map, I'll throw down 3 reactors and go for a marine ghost all in or something. But, I do it based off the SCV scout that scouts the main if I can get in before 4, the first stalker pops anywhere from ~4:05-4:15 I believe. I always check gas, chrono, and gates. 1 gate + gas and low chrono spent on nexus is 100% FE. If I know they FE when I fe, I feel safer to add on addons as we are both a bit gimped. If you save the SCV, and repoke the natural at like 5-6 minutes, it's a good time to check the natural, and get in the main with the reaper.
2) One gas one base is obviously a 4 gate, or 1 gate FE. Nothing else will be strong enough to be worried about. Just repoke with SCV and confirm FE or 4 gate. Anything with just 1 gas on a confirmed one base should be dealt with with just units. If it's an early scout, 1 base 1 gas, scout dies, then scan to see. I always scan half nat, half ramp, half main. That way you get the ramp army, natural, and SOME base.
3) Two gas one base, scout for proxy starport. Check the chrono. It's ALWAYS safe to get an early ebay and turret as a reaction if you poke the natural at 5:45-6 that's when a 2 gas DT expo would drop, so if it was a dt rush you could see if it's all in, or not. 2 gas one base has to be scouted again, because the variations are spread way too wide. Could be VR, DT, Robo, 1 base collsai, phoenix, 3 gate FE, 3 gate pressure, 3 gate blink, etc. So, basically keep addons off and make units, and slowly add them on as you scout what he's doing. Rushing them all at once leaves you with a window, that you don't have to leave open.
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I know how to drop from a medivac while it's moving, but how do I do that when it's multiple medivacs? Thanks.
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On January 15 2012 04:11 PaleRider09 wrote:
I know how to drop from a medivac while it's moving, but how do I do that when it's multiple medivacs? Thanks.
Select all medivacs, hold D (your drop hotkey) and click each medivac whilst still holding D.
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On January 15 2012 03:46 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 09:09 Willzzz wrote:On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in? Well I do lots of different stuff, but almost always get at least 1 gas before adding on rax. Very often I go double gas before adding rax and still hold 4gate. You just have to buy time until your first medivacs come out and then the tides suddenly turn. I tend to find the early aggression builds quite rare on ladder. I'm masters. EU or NA? I'm also masters (on EU) and about every other frickin toss does some hard aggression to me, and I havet trouble seeing you defend every allin they throw at you. How do you manage against blink+obs allin?
Same here, Mid-High EU Master, every PvT either 1 base standard cheese or macro cheese into turtle. Unfortunately, I don't see any other viable strategy but 1 Rax FE. I've never had a Protoss who couldn't throw good FFs on those ramps... and it is generally a bad idea to base an entire strategy on possible mistakes of your opponent.
Personally, I feel that 1 Rax FE opens stronger (and more uncommong) timing windows to exploit since your opponent is in Master league, they've probably mastered the standard timings to an acceptable extent.
Blink is really a pain... It depends on how I scout it and when, if I see more than 2 stalkers, no zaelots, no sentries I go 4 rax marauder heavy (after the expand) and then you need luck to snipe the observer otherwise you are dead.
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On January 15 2012 02:41 upperbound wrote:I'm sick and tired of losing to the worst fucking noobs to ever play this game. This guy went 7 gate/robo/charge/templar tech OFF OF 1 FUCKING BASE AND WON. Protoss is such bullshit that you can spend so much useless money on so many production facilities you can't support and just no-micro to a victory. This guy didn't need to micro his units at all, he didn't need to scout, he just herpaderped to a victory. I knew what he was doing, I was prepared, and I still lost easily. I'm so tired of this shit and it's impossible to play this race even against people that suck. http://drop.sc/91664User was warned for this post
perhaps work on controlling your temper and attitude towards the game and other players, you may find you actually improve if you analyse your own errors and mistakes rather than getting mad and yelling IMBA. You didn't even ask a question, you just raged.
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What is the best response to nexus first? usually ill drop 4 rax because im going for no gas expo and all in and it works occasionally but with stalker kiting it usually gets shut down.
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On January 15 2012 09:18 MasonosaM wrote:
What is the best response to nexus first? usually ill drop 4 rax because im going for no gas expo and all in and it works occasionally but with stalker kiting it usually gets shut down.
You can go double expand (third CC before additional Barracks).
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On January 15 2012 03:44 NadaSound wrote:
I was watching the GSL recently and the casters were talking about a new aggressive TvP build going around in Korea. It's a marauder hellion push. I've done a couple times myself with good success but I haven't figured out exactly what to do after the push. I only saw the one game where it was done so I am essentially free-styling it. I was wondering if any one was familiar with this build and could point me to some replays or other resources about it.
i am interrested in those replays too
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I am in dire need of a build order for each terran matchup (TvP, TvZ and TvT) and am having a lot of trouble finding accurate ones. For TvP I am thinking something like 1 Rax FE into Bio. In TvZ I want to open up Reactor Hellion and transition into mech. TvT requires something safe that gets me an expansion and allows me to produce marine/tank + viking/medivac. I would really really appreciate it if someone could link me to replays of top Terrans performing these builds recently. Thanks if you help
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On January 15 2012 11:16 Zawmb wrote:I am in dire need of a build order for each terran matchup (TvP, TvZ and TvT) and am having a lot of trouble finding accurate ones. For TvP I am thinking something like 1 Rax FE into Bio. In TvZ I want to open up Reactor Hellion and transition into mech. TvT requires something safe that gets me an expansion and allows me to produce marine/tank + viking/medivac. I would really really appreciate it if someone could link me to replays of top Terrans performing these builds recently. Thanks if you help
I don't know if you've seen it but here's drewbie's guide for all of his matchups. It's only around a month old still, so pretty recent. If you're wanting to go mech versus Zerg look under the 1 Rax FE spoiler of TvZ.
http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456
On January 15 2012 03:10 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Use SCVs. Use them. Attack, stop, attack, stop, fuck up the zeal AI as your infantry micros behind.
Would you mind explaining that more? I'm pretty new to the game and have always wondered the most efficient way to use the SCVs when I pull them.
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Hey y'all,
Just played a practice TvZ. I feel my play was solid overall, but there were a couple of things that really turned out to hurt me.
- In the first engagement, I got totally owned by banelings. However, I couldn't see them, let alone target fire them, under the mutas. Was there something I should have done to prevent this, given that I thought there were no banes and I wanted to keep marines in front of my tanks to protect against mutas?
- I let my MULE energy get high. My opponent's macro was quite good, but I usually need many more scans for creep spread and such. Was the loss mostly because I just didn't drop enough MULEs?
Thanks! I'm looking at your TvZ now, hnim.
http://drop.sc/92067#
To hnim:
- Your reactor on your rax is a bit late, and your hellions are late as a result. Try to make sure you're getting the hellions out as fast as you can. Also, you don't pull your workers at 150 gas. It's a matter of preference, but I think this is suboptimal.
- It's not so great to just kinda chill outside of your opponent's base when you don't really have a full army. The Zerg was able to clean you up really cost effectively as a result. Either push up and then retreat, or bring more stuff and push in a little harder and try to get the zerg to engage before he's ready.
- The zerg got really lucky to finish his ups before you killed the evos. If this hadn't happened, you would have rolled him very easily.
- Clear the watchtowers when you pass them! Your opponent was always ready for your pushes because he saw you move out every time.
- You have to scan ahead. You lost your army at 21:00 for nothing because you didn't know his army was right next to you.
- At 25:30, I think a better tank spread would have won you that battle convincingly. Don't let banes splash your tanks, there's really no reason for that. You also suicide SCV's after this -- I'm not sure this is the right move when you're nowhere near maxed and you haven't saturated your fifth.
- You give up on ghosts. They're so good! I also would have been dropping more, drops are so important in split-map games. You're going to be maxed, so if you can trade a bunch of units to take down an expo, it's worth it every time.
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EPT
