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Okay, I just had a very weird Match.
TvR, he was Terran. Bronze, Top 8.
I scouted him, and as my scoute arrived (minute 2) he basically had an expansion up and a Barracks.
My opponent also tried to build a Rax behind my mineral line (O_O), obviously I destroyed it in time.
He went Mass Marines, but I'm wondering if it's really possible;
1. How did he get a CC at the 2 minute mark with a Rax and 1 supply depot?
2. He eventually won with mass marines at the 9 minute mark
3. How am I supposed to counter Mass Marines? Siege Tech wasn't up at that point, and I barely had marines out (went more on economy)
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On January 14 2012 00:51 tryteyker wrote:
Okay, I just had a very weird Match.
TvR, he was Terran. Bronze, Top 8.
I scouted him, and as my scoute arrived (minute 2) he basically had an expansion up and a Barracks.
My opponent also tried to build a Rax behind my mineral line (O_O), obviously I destroyed it in time.
He went Mass Marines, but I'm wondering if it's really possible;
1. How did he get a CC at the 2 minute mark with a Rax and 1 supply depot?
2. He eventually won with mass marines at the 9 minute mark
3. How am I supposed to counter Mass Marines? Siege Tech wasn't up at that point, and I barely had marines out (went more on economy)
Please give us a replay so we can see what actually happened.
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high diamond terran here
i play right now 2 rax agrression/poke into 3 rax ghost timing attack
or marauder hellion timing attack
i give up on 2 rax agression and built behind expo and make standart game
because of 3 gate or 4 gate immortal all in or warprism play
i am not a fan of 1/1/1
so my question is there any good built that i should make where i increase my chances more then the builts i mentioned
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so lategame TvP. seems nearly every terran struggles with it. I am okay at the engagements emping correctly and stuff but it seems protoss just reinforces so fast even with a shit-ton of barracks they are in your production facilities before you can get a second round of units out. Any ways to handle this, just more barracks? if I have excess minerals a planetary fortress or two kind of defending my half of map to buy me time to regroup an army as he has to destroy these. instead of having my whole army for the big engagement having a small medivac to drop when it happens to try and get him to warp in as defense far away so by the time he warps in to deal with that i can get near remax.
anybody else play other unit combinations superlategame when have a massive bank, e.g. banshees, thors? without mech upgrades maybe not thors but you have air attack upgrade for vikings so would banshees be good. or is a banshee out of a starport just a waste as an extra medivac or viking would have been more helpful?
also why do we rarely see marauders in TvZ unless opponent gets roaches or ultras. I know you want most barracks to have reactors but still from the one tech lab rax why not? is it you want all gas going towards tanks, medivacs and upgrades?
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On January 14 2012 03:56 ThePianoDentist wrote:
so lategame TvP. seems nearly every terran struggles with it. I am okay at the engagements emping correctly and stuff but it seems protoss just reinforces so fast even with a shit-ton of barracks they are in your production facilities before you can get a second round of units out. Any ways to handle this, just more barracks? if I have excess minerals a planetary fortress or two kind of defending my half of map to buy me time to regroup an army as he has to destroy these. instead of having my whole army for the big engagement having a small medivac to drop when it happens to try and get him to warp in as defense far away so by the time he warps in to deal with that i can get near remax.
Yes, PFs are the key, along with macro OCs to reduce your SCV count in order to have a bigger army size. If you don't have that defensive position to fall back on, warp-ins will overwhelm you.
On January 14 2012 03:56 ThePianoDentist wrote:
anybody else play other unit combinations superlategame when have a massive bank, e.g. banshees, thors? without mech upgrades maybe not thors but you have air attack upgrade for vikings so would banshees be good. or is a banshee out of a starport just a waste as an extra medivac or viking would have been more helpful?
I remember a game in GSL Ups & Downs (I think) in which one Terran player went a few Battlecruisers by lategame. It forces more Stalkers than the Protoss would like to make, as Archons alone are not enough to take them out, but I guess he could have won the game without them, so... About Banshees, they're simply too frail, and Protoss won't have trouble to deal with Thors, especially as they won't have any upgrades. If the situation arose in which I could afford them, I think I'd try something like 3 Battlecruisers, but I don't know if that would be really more effective than 18 supply in standard MMMGV.
On January 14 2012 03:56 ThePianoDentist wrote:
also why do we rarely see marauders in TvZ unless opponent gets roaches or ultras. I know you want most barracks to have reactors but still from the one tech lab rax why not? is it you want all gas going towards tanks, medivacs and upgrades?
Marauders are not effective against Zerglings, and of course are helpless against Mutalisks, so it's better to have 2 Marines instead.
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On January 14 2012 00:51 tryteyker wrote:
Okay, I just had a very weird Match.
TvR, he was Terran. Bronze, Top 8.
I scouted him, and as my scoute arrived (minute 2) he basically had an expansion up and a Barracks.
My opponent also tried to build a Rax behind my mineral line (O_O), obviously I destroyed it in time.
He went Mass Marines, but I'm wondering if it's really possible;
1. How did he get a CC at the 2 minute mark with a Rax and 1 supply depot?
2. He eventually won with mass marines at the 9 minute mark
3. How am I supposed to counter Mass Marines? Siege Tech wasn't up at that point, and I barely had marines out (went more on economy)
Hey tryteyker, I didn't see anyone else answer your questions so I will really quickly. First of all, it's difficult to tell you for-sure concrete answers because you haven't posted a replay and those questions are very specific to one game. It is literally impossible to have a depot rax and a second cc up by the 2 min mark, are you sure you have your game timer turned on in game? By cc do you mean his first cc in his original base lol? This game that you described seems really weird; perhaps you or your opponent was using really weird build timings? If you're losing to mass marine in TvT you need to probably scout it better because it may have been an all-in, or maybe his macro was simply superior to yours and he just had more stuff. Try to take watchtowers and park a marine outside his base, scan every now and again, that type of thing to see these things coming before they hit your base. A few bunkers with your own marines and siege tanks should do fine against it. Also, mass marine attacks can hit at very different times, again its difficult to advise you without a replay of that specific game.
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On January 13 2012 23:32 cunningstunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:14 M4nkind wrote:
I watched some streams of pros paying andd I have question
Normaly I myself have to select scv > press build something > rally to minerals, but pros when I watch their vods just build stuff and scvs seems to return to minerals on themselves. How do they do that? Or are they just so insanely fast on pressing on minerals?
And most of the time they snipe so insanely fast, do they just hold snipe button and spam m1? so when you select a scv to build a barracks, (click B,B) you then hold the shift key and right click on a mineral patch, that way once the scv has built the building it will go to the mineral patch instantly.
Thats what I am doing, but when watching vods of good players I never see them clicking minerals, are they doing that too fast or is there some other way to make them mine after building?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:42 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:32 cunningstunt wrote:On January 13 2012 23:14 M4nkind wrote:
I watched some streams of pros paying andd I have question
Normaly I myself have to select scv > press build something > rally to minerals, but pros when I watch their vods just build stuff and scvs seems to return to minerals on themselves. How do they do that? Or are they just so insanely fast on pressing on minerals?
And most of the time they snipe so insanely fast, do they just hold snipe button and spam m1? so when you select a scv to build a barracks, (click B,B) you then hold the shift key and right click on a mineral patch, that way once the scv has built the building it will go to the mineral patch instantly. Thats what I am doing, but when watching vods of good players I never see them clicking minerals, are they doing that too fast or is there some other way to make them mine after building?
They're probably just too fast. Some players use an scv holding a mineral then hit "Return Resources" so afterwards the scv returns the minerals, then starts mining again-- but it's more efficient just to queue up a right-click on the mineral.
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On January 14 2012 03:56 ThePianoDentist wrote:
so lategame TvP. seems nearly every terran struggles with it. I am okay at the engagements emping correctly and stuff but it seems protoss just reinforces so fast even with a shit-ton of barracks they are in your production facilities before you can get a second round of units out. Any ways to handle this, just more barracks? if I have excess minerals a planetary fortress or two kind of defending my half of map to buy me time to regroup an army as he has to destroy these. instead of having my whole army for the big engagement having a small medivac to drop when it happens to try and get him to warp in as defense far away so by the time he warps in to deal with that i can get near remax.
anybody else play other unit combinations superlategame when have a massive bank, e.g. banshees, thors? without mech upgrades maybe not thors but you have air attack upgrade for vikings so would banshees be good. or is a banshee out of a starport just a waste as an extra medivac or viking would have been more helpful?
also why do we rarely see marauders in TvZ unless opponent gets roaches or ultras. I know you want most barracks to have reactors but still from the one tech lab rax why not? is it you want all gas going towards tanks, medivacs and upgrades?
Upgrade your sky weapons and then armor all game. At the super late game, you can add on a couple of battlecruisers in conjunction with your vikings. Protoss AA is pretty bad outside of void rays, (and HTs in this case for feedbacks). With ghosts and MMM to accompany as well as PFs spread across the map you should have an easier time clearing up.
The tech switch is really difficult though and needs a significant economy to fund.
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On January 14 2012 02:11 perser84 wrote:
high diamond terran here
i play right now 2 rax agrression/poke into 3 rax ghost timing attack
or marauder hellion timing attack
i give up on 2 rax agression and built behind expo and make standart game
because of 3 gate or 4 gate immortal all in or warprism play
i am not a fan of 1/1/1
so my question is there any good built that i should make where i increase my chances more then the builts i mentioned
1 rax expand...? I use Drewbies version: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293252 (worth reading if you haven't done it yet)! Defending all-ins will be hard in the beginning, but with some practice you should be able to hold all of them. The key is scouting, army-control and not losing your macro when you're under attack. This build will be very rewarding once you learn its strengths.
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On January 14 2012 02:11 perser84 wrote:
high diamond terran here
i play right now 2 rax agrression/poke into 3 rax ghost timing attack
or marauder hellion timing attack
i give up on 2 rax agression and built behind expo and make standart game
because of 3 gate or 4 gate immortal all in or warprism play
i am not a fan of 1/1/1
so my question is there any good built that i should make where i increase my chances more then the builts i mentioned
In TvP I assume. I'd suggest reaper FE into 4-5 rax. Earlier expo, safe to most, if not all, all ins pending the reaper/scv scout pattern and timing. Then, your own reactionary ability.
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also if you are gasless rax expanding in TvP if you see them 1 gate expoing rather than throwing down an extra 3 or 4 rax when before gas do you get gas faster with less rax to let you tech to medivacs and upgrades and stuff...or do you get the extra rax early anyway to defend against 6 gates?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 14 2012 06:29 ThePianoDentist wrote:
also if you are gasless rax expanding in TvP if you see them 1 gate expoing rather than throwing down an extra 3 or 4 rax when before gas do you get gas faster with less rax to let you tech to medivacs and upgrades and stuff...or do you get the extra rax early anyway to defend against 6 gates?
When I 1 rax FE I go up to 3 rax, then tech to starports while getting single ups. I hit starport tech and make an armory and a 2nd engi bay as my fourth gas comes up and go for a quick 2/2. Against a 1 gate expo I do the same thing. I get quick medivacs then take my third.
I would be hesitant to build upwards of 5 rax on 2 base just because it'll slow down your tech, expo etc a great deal. If you're worried about a 6gate, I'd add on a couple more bunkers. You'll be fine with repair.
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On January 14 2012 06:29 ThePianoDentist wrote:
also if you are gasless rax expanding in TvP if you see them 1 gate expoing rather than throwing down an extra 3 or 4 rax when before gas do you get gas faster with less rax to let you tech to medivacs and upgrades and stuff...or do you get the extra rax early anyway to defend against 6 gates?
No, not in my opinion at least. Always add at least 2 rax before refineries, everything else is gambling if you ask me.
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Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here.
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On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here.
Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in?
I think that against a potential pressure you gotta go rax-> cc -> extra rax (as cc builds) -> gas with your 1 rax fe just because otherwise you won't have enough marines and stuff.
EDIT: I guess on like Shakuras Plateau this could be a non-issue though. Or if you can confirm some sort of greedy build from the protoss rather than the extremely common 2-base allin play I see on the ladder.
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On January 14 2012 06:49 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in? I think that against a potential pressure you gotta go rax-> cc -> extra rax (as cc builds) -> gas with your 1 rax fe just because otherwise you won't have enough marines and stuff.
I think so too, that's why I asked him.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 14 2012 06:51 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:49 Blazinghand wrote:On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in? I think that against a potential pressure you gotta go rax-> cc -> extra rax (as cc builds) -> gas with your 1 rax fe just because otherwise you won't have enough marines and stuff. I think so too, that's why I asked him.
The big concern I have is that Protosses on the ladder tend to go for very aggressive 2-base allin plays-- 6gate, 6gate with warp prism, etc. Unless you can confirm they're double forging or taking a quick third (or doing some quick tech) fast teching yourself is dangerous unless you can like do it for map control.
EDIT: InflowYen makes a couple bunkers while rushing for cloak banshees to keep the protoss in his base. This is one way the extra gas could be good-- even though he can't win a direct engagement or even defend, the protoss is unable to leave home. The big issue is if you spend the quicker gas on speeding up your stim or something, you have a wonderful window where you don't have much stuff and protoss might just blindly attack you and win.
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On January 14 2012 06:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:51 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:49 Blazinghand wrote:On January 14 2012 06:48 Bwall wrote:On January 14 2012 06:45 Willzzz wrote:
Fast gas for me, not getting gas is the risk here. Do you mean that you go rax->cc->gas->extra rax instead of rax->cc->extra rax->gas? Do you have problems with defending? If not, what league are you in? I think that against a potential pressure you gotta go rax-> cc -> extra rax (as cc builds) -> gas with your 1 rax fe just because otherwise you won't have enough marines and stuff. I think so too, that's why I asked him. The big concern I have is that Protosses on the ladder tend to go for very aggressive 2-base allin plays-- 6gate, 6gate with warp prism, etc. Unless you can confirm they're double forging or taking a quick third (or doing some quick tech) fast teching yourself is dangerous unless you can like do it for map control.
I'm agreeing with you, he's the guy you should argue against...
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EPT
