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On January 01 2012 02:38 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 00:52 deathtrance wrote:
Ok, so my TvZ is severely suffering right now, and it's only against muta players. My question is, exactly how do you wrestle back map control from mass muta players while playing the marine/tank style? I mean, every time, their mutas stroll in, kill all my turrets, couple of scvs, run from my marines with minimal casualties, then expand like no tomorrow, while I'm stuck on three base.
D: halp plz Midgame TvZ is kinda like PvT, you just sit back on 3 base making your ultimate terran army while defending harassment and then you just take your 200/200 army and splat them. This doesn't mean you aren't doing some harassment of your own, but you should have plenty of marines back at base to defend mutas. Don't worry if zerg has an extra base, they are allowed to because your army is more efficient than theirs. Their mutas can't be everywhere at once. if all they kill is a couple of turrets and a couple of SCV for a couple of mutas, that is nothing to worry about. Meanwhile that medivac drop you sent out is safe in the knowledge that the mutas are elsewhere.
This is really not the best way to play TvZ at all.
Turtling is what you do if you somehow get yourself behind in a macro game. If you're about even with the zerg you want to be as offensive as possible. If you decide to turtle on even terms, the zerg is going to expand and use their remaining supply to create their favoured army. They have no incentive to 'waste' resources/supply on units like zerglings and banelings if they don't need to defend.
Your mutalisk defence should consist of 8 - 12 marines and a medivac + 1/2 turrets in specific areas during the very early stages of harassment. Once their mutalisk flock increases to a number around 20+, that's when having a thor, (plus another in your main army) and about 4 turrets starts becoming what you need. You need to keep in mind this is a gradual progression that scales with the zergs mutalisk count. Add on approximately one turret per minute.
I'm personally not a fan of dropping vs lair tech zerg except on very large maps or when I am playing offensively. You CAN control mutalisk positioning with drops but you're doing it at the cost of 8 marines and a medivac.
Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that;
a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack
b) It is harder for the zerg to expand
c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases.
d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep
e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward
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On January 01 2012 01:35 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 00:52 deathtrance wrote:
Ok, so my TvZ is severely suffering right now, and it's only against muta players. My question is, exactly how do you wrestle back map control from mass muta players while playing the marine/tank style? I mean, every time, their mutas stroll in, kill all my turrets, couple of scvs, run from my marines with minimal casualties, then expand like no tomorrow, while I'm stuck on three base.
D: halp plz So, the thing is, you can't really have map control while the opponent has a significant number of mutas. So, what you need to do is both make sure that when you are in your base, you are adequately defended so you can minimize damage (good marine spread appropriate for the number of mutas, thors if he gets more than about 10-15, good zoning with your turrets (basically that means placing more turrets in places that are good outside attack angles, and using marines to cover the middle space). However, perhaps more importantly, you need to try to make the muta player use his mutas to actually fight you. If your opponent invests 1000 gas into 10 mutas at the 11:00 mark, his useful fighting army will be smaller. This means you can push out -- make sure you save a couple scans so you can move out and avoid flanks, then go and see if you can siege up in a good spot, around a third if he has one or near his natural if he's 2 basing. Most of the time, the muta player will need to bring back his mutas to help try to pick off tanks and stray marines, and this means he's not harassing your base. Build CC's at your main, then move out, then try to secure the next base, whether that's a 3rd, 4th, etc. Also, at some point you should be doing drops. They are harder when mutas are out, but you should still do them. If you fly past an overlord or scouting zergling, kill it so that future drops are more likely to be successful. Also, if your marine ups are good, you can usually bring a muta or two down with you, so the drops are not totally useless. Dropping, then moving out, then expanding, and then repeating is kind of the idea of TvZ. It's more important to do this well when mutas are out than infestors, which will tax your micro more but are easier to plan against because they are slow.
I just want to add that, when you are dropping against muta player do this when you know that his mutas are out of position, for example: if his mutas are in your main they cant be picking your drop ship same time, so just drop, if his mutas picking your drop ship on far away corner of the map just do other drop on his main on other side of the map, general idea with mutas is that you dont want to spread your flock into smaller groups, as the power of mutas are in their numbers on one flock.
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On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 02:38 Willzzz wrote:On January 01 2012 00:52 deathtrance wrote:
Ok, so my TvZ is severely suffering right now, and it's only against muta players. My question is, exactly how do you wrestle back map control from mass muta players while playing the marine/tank style? I mean, every time, their mutas stroll in, kill all my turrets, couple of scvs, run from my marines with minimal casualties, then expand like no tomorrow, while I'm stuck on three base.
D: halp plz Midgame TvZ is kinda like PvT, you just sit back on 3 base making your ultimate terran army while defending harassment and then you just take your 200/200 army and splat them. This doesn't mean you aren't doing some harassment of your own, but you should have plenty of marines back at base to defend mutas. Don't worry if zerg has an extra base, they are allowed to because your army is more efficient than theirs. Their mutas can't be everywhere at once. if all they kill is a couple of turrets and a couple of SCV for a couple of mutas, that is nothing to worry about. Meanwhile that medivac drop you sent out is safe in the knowledge that the mutas are elsewhere. This is really not the best way to play TvZ at all. Turtling is what you do if you somehow get yourself behind in a macro game. If you're about even with the zerg you want to be as offensive as possible. If you decide to turtle on even terms, the zerg is going to expand and use their remaining supply to create their favoured army. They have no incentive to 'waste' resources/supply on units like zerglings and banelings if they don't need to defend. Your mutalisk defence should consist of 8 - 12 marines and a medivac + 1/2 turrets in specific areas during the very early stages of harassment. Once their mutalisk flock increases to a number around 20+, that's when having a thor, (plus another in your main army) and about 4 turrets starts becoming what you need. You need to keep in mind this is a gradual progression that scales with the zergs mutalisk count. Add on approximately one turret per minute. I'm personally not a fan of dropping vs lair tech zerg except on very large maps or when I am playing offensively. You CAN control mutalisk positioning with drops but you're doing it at the cost of 8 marines and a medivac. Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that; a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack b) It is harder for the zerg to expand c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases. d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward
Indeed, if Zerg sees that you are just maxing out and turtling off the 2 bases, they just can tech up to broodlords and expand everywhere with out any pressure or danger, good luck with your 200/200 marine/tank/medivac army against broodlord/infestor/baneling
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 01 2012 03:48 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:On January 01 2012 02:38 Willzzz wrote:On January 01 2012 00:52 deathtrance wrote:
Ok, so my TvZ is severely suffering right now, and it's only against muta players. My question is, exactly how do you wrestle back map control from mass muta players while playing the marine/tank style? I mean, every time, their mutas stroll in, kill all my turrets, couple of scvs, run from my marines with minimal casualties, then expand like no tomorrow, while I'm stuck on three base.
D: halp plz Midgame TvZ is kinda like PvT, you just sit back on 3 base making your ultimate terran army while defending harassment and then you just take your 200/200 army and splat them. This doesn't mean you aren't doing some harassment of your own, but you should have plenty of marines back at base to defend mutas. Don't worry if zerg has an extra base, they are allowed to because your army is more efficient than theirs. Their mutas can't be everywhere at once. if all they kill is a couple of turrets and a couple of SCV for a couple of mutas, that is nothing to worry about. Meanwhile that medivac drop you sent out is safe in the knowledge that the mutas are elsewhere. This is really not the best way to play TvZ at all. Turtling is what you do if you somehow get yourself behind in a macro game. If you're about even with the zerg you want to be as offensive as possible. If you decide to turtle on even terms, the zerg is going to expand and use their remaining supply to create their favoured army. They have no incentive to 'waste' resources/supply on units like zerglings and banelings if they don't need to defend. Your mutalisk defence should consist of 8 - 12 marines and a medivac + 1/2 turrets in specific areas during the very early stages of harassment. Once their mutalisk flock increases to a number around 20+, that's when having a thor, (plus another in your main army) and about 4 turrets starts becoming what you need. You need to keep in mind this is a gradual progression that scales with the zergs mutalisk count. Add on approximately one turret per minute. I'm personally not a fan of dropping vs lair tech zerg except on very large maps or when I am playing offensively. You CAN control mutalisk positioning with drops but you're doing it at the cost of 8 marines and a medivac. Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that; a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack b) It is harder for the zerg to expand c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases. d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward Indeed, if Zerg sees that you are just maxing out and turtling off the 2 bases, they just can tech up to broodlords and expand everywhere with out any pressure or danger, good luck with your 200/200 marine/tank/medivac army against broodlord/infestor/baneling
Yeah being passive against zerg is pretty fatal. Once creep and expansions are all over the map, zerg can greatly abuse better army mobility. Denying expansions and creep spread makes for a lot easier game.
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On January 01 2012 03:48 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:On January 01 2012 02:38 Willzzz wrote:On January 01 2012 00:52 deathtrance wrote:
Ok, so my TvZ is severely suffering right now, and it's only against muta players. My question is, exactly how do you wrestle back map control from mass muta players while playing the marine/tank style? I mean, every time, their mutas stroll in, kill all my turrets, couple of scvs, run from my marines with minimal casualties, then expand like no tomorrow, while I'm stuck on three base.
D: halp plz Midgame TvZ is kinda like PvT, you just sit back on 3 base making your ultimate terran army while defending harassment and then you just take your 200/200 army and splat them. This doesn't mean you aren't doing some harassment of your own, but you should have plenty of marines back at base to defend mutas. Don't worry if zerg has an extra base, they are allowed to because your army is more efficient than theirs. Their mutas can't be everywhere at once. if all they kill is a couple of turrets and a couple of SCV for a couple of mutas, that is nothing to worry about. Meanwhile that medivac drop you sent out is safe in the knowledge that the mutas are elsewhere. This is really not the best way to play TvZ at all. Turtling is what you do if you somehow get yourself behind in a macro game. If you're about even with the zerg you want to be as offensive as possible. If you decide to turtle on even terms, the zerg is going to expand and use their remaining supply to create their favoured army. They have no incentive to 'waste' resources/supply on units like zerglings and banelings if they don't need to defend. Your mutalisk defence should consist of 8 - 12 marines and a medivac + 1/2 turrets in specific areas during the very early stages of harassment. Once their mutalisk flock increases to a number around 20+, that's when having a thor, (plus another in your main army) and about 4 turrets starts becoming what you need. You need to keep in mind this is a gradual progression that scales with the zergs mutalisk count. Add on approximately one turret per minute. I'm personally not a fan of dropping vs lair tech zerg except on very large maps or when I am playing offensively. You CAN control mutalisk positioning with drops but you're doing it at the cost of 8 marines and a medivac. Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that; a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack b) It is harder for the zerg to expand c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases. d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward Indeed, if Zerg sees that you are just maxing out and turtling off the 2 bases, they just can tech up to broodlords and expand everywhere with out any pressure or danger, good luck with your 200/200 marine/tank/medivac army against broodlord/infestor/baneling
...Are you all serious?
Fast third base, turtle style with tanks sieged, turrets up, and bunkers is what about any zerg fears. 3 base terran, even passive, can do devastating damage. You know... You can scan and scout hive tech, and do a strong push well before 200/200. Just because you take a defensive stance, doesn't mean you must hold that stance. Imagine they get a flock up of 25-30 mutas... 2500-3000 gas, 50-60 food, plus their 75-90 drones and the lings they HAVE to have on the map for map control.... yeeaaa they don't have the supply to do a full on tech switch. They're going to HAVE to sac an army. The key is engaging well, not losing your ball when they trade with you on your side of the map.
I'm just saying. I have a few GM zerg friends on NA, each one when I ask what their least favorite TvZ style is it's reactor hellion into 3 OC fast third, defensive stance with tanks. You realize if you don't lose tanks, by the time you push you'll have like.. 10+ tanks, if not more.
What makes terrans lose game against zergs? Being over aggressive, and over extending. You lose your push army and you're so far behind (say you do a 2 base marine tank medic push) that zerg can now take base 3 and 4, and you cannot secure you're third base successfully, if ever.
I don't know where you all get this. You need to watch your TvZ replays, and play defensive, and see how much of a lead they truely have. Sure, he has 5 bases... check the saturation. Check his injects. Check everything. The thing is, if you sac their muta ball, and subsequent ling/bling army, they can ONLY remax on lings atm. Making corruptors into broods takes too long. Not to mention, once you swap armies and you still have marine tank medic left, and you clear most of their mutas, you now have an open window to start dropping as almost every damn zerg will now transition into infestor ling bling after the mutas are gone. Once the mutas are gone, you double drop main and 3rd or 4th, so he has to split his defensive army he remaxed to clear two bogus drops, as you move in for the kill.
Even if that doesn't end the game, you secured a time of map control, a 4th, and you can see in what direction he is going.
If you over extend, a zerg can easily just make zerglings, flank you, and he just cleared half your marine tank medic army with pure lings. You lost BADLY in the engagement. You NEED to keep your army alive, which is hard to do being constantly aggressive.
This is all coming from a guy who I don't think I know how to sit and play defensive. I'm saying the better the zergs get, the less constant aggression even phases them. Sure, 5 less drones, 10 more lings and boom your push is gone. You need to realize constant aggression is for before mutas pop, and before infestors pop. Then, it's macro time and time to play defensive.
An ideal composition against bling muta ling is marine tank medic with 2-3 thors. He cannot try to pick off tanks without having to magic box, and he WILL lose a muta or two per tank if he gets any at all.
The key is to just push safely, and soundly and keeping your tanks protected.
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Glad someone agrees with me, anyway I'm just going by what the pros do, but it makes good sense.
Yes, obviously it depends upon what the zerg is doing. The question I answered was talking about heavy mutalisk harass where the zerg has map control.
I also think people are underestimating how long it takes to max out, I'm pretty sure you can get 200/200 within 15 minutes if you don't lose too many units along the way.
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On January 01 2012 04:21 Willzzz wrote:
Glad someone agrees with me, anyway I'm just going by what the pros do, but it makes good sense.
Yes, obviously it depends upon what the zerg is doing. The question I answered was talking about heavy mutalisk harass where the zerg has map control.
I also think people are underestimating how long it takes to max out, I'm pretty sure you can get 200/200 within 15 minutes if you don't lose too many units along the way.
Exactly. Especially if you take a fast third, you can max on marine tank medic, or get to ~170 for a strong push well by 15 minutes. Hell, if I can reaper FE vs toss, and get up to 100 supply in 11 minutes with a fast third otw, I'm sure I could against zerg.
Willzzz stick to what you know man. People give some bad advice here, and it's not at all warranted or stopped. The pros go aggressive to passive in TvZ because of how mobile the mutas are, and how lings can backstab. If you sim city well, and scout and defend, you can actually fend off harasses and runbys with minimal losses.
And for me, against muta heavy, it's suicide to be aggressive and leave your base. It's 100% suicide. They don't need blings. They can run you over with muta ling.
Just imagine what's scarier...4 tanks, 4 medics, 30 marines? or 8 tanks, 6 medics, 45 marines... it's not but a few minutes later, and will probably have 2/2 or 3/3 instead of the earlier grade, and tanks will have at least +1 to negate zergling armor.
Ninja edit -- before some theorycraft pro, or GSL watching/stream watching all star comes in to negate what I said, and say an example of XXX v XXX in the last GSL on XXX map kinda shit. I'm not saying aggressive TvZ won't work. Infact, I can't play defensive TvZ, I can only advocate it. Infact, in my like entire gaming career in sc2, I don't think I've hit 200/200.
Watch me play. I'm the most aggressive person. I over extend. I take early undefended thirds. I try to constantly drop around. I always have a map presence... in my mind. However, let me tell you, the amount of control it takes to stay afloat like that is insane, and very hard to execute. Especially with recent mass upgrade ling trends, fast ultras, etc.. being aggressive is very hard and albeit rewarding, not worth it. If you don't know how to be aggressive, learn to be defensive and you will find more success and it'll help you in every MU being able to passively macro and defend until you get a strong upgrade advantage, or some other important timing to move out.
A great one, imo, is when 2/2 hits. Usually +1 on tanks just got done a min earlier or so, and when 2/2 finishes you have a great timing to push, before max.
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Like you, just trying to educate our other terran friends.
I have to say I absolutely love aggressive play vs zerg, but every player needs to recognise when the tide is turning against them and to switch tactics. I win many games with non stop aggressive pushes, but if it starts going wrong, you just end up throwing away your army piece-meal and eventually losing.
Playing defensive is never my plan A, but it's better to fall back on plan B than just lose. Plenty of pro players have won games simply by defending all game long. Hive tech isn't as scary as all that, especially if you can build up a nice number of ghosts. You can trade cost effectively vs any unit composition the zerg has.
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On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:
This is really not the best way to play TvZ at all.
Turtling is what you do if you somehow get yourself behind in a macro game. If you're about even with the zerg you want to be as offensive as possible.
No, this will only prevent you from building up your Tank count for your 170+ supply push which should hit whenever the Zerg tries to transition into tier3. Unless you make some massive micro/positionning blunder, any 170+ supply Terran army with a decent Tank count should win against 200 supply tier2 Zerg.
You're saying he will not have to build Zerglings and Banelings if you don't attack, so what will he do? Pure Mutas? 150 drones and Mutas? He will build Zerglings and Banelings anyway. But if you're over agressive, you will lose your Tanks here and there, and suddenly he'll be in front of your base with mass Banelings and his Muta flock, and not even MKP-like Marine splitting will save you.
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How should I react to this playstyle? This guy had 32 workers at the 18 minute mark of the game (...) and went for 6 gate, colossus tech, and 1/1, and still I lost every engagement. It seems like if a protoss can forcefield decently, terran just can't win. Any advice would be helpful -- my army just got split in half a couple of times and all of the sudden I was way behind.
http://drop.sc/81924
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Attacking with your army in a ball againt sentry-heavy units is the last thing you want to do. Get Medivacs earlier (your Starport was idle at first) and start dropping so he has to split his army. This way, you'll create opportunities to snipe Sentries.
Lift your Factory and use it to scout, by the way. There were many areas in his main in which he did not have sight, you could have used them.
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So don't over extend?
Being 'as offensive as possible doesn't mean you have to commit to killing his army with a push.
It can mean something as simple as 'push out a little towards a Xel Naga tower then pull back'.
Taking a third base and staying defensive fits perfectly with that philosophy because you ARE being as offensive as possible, (which is not at all).
Push out after taking a quick third with not enough tanks and you die. Sitting in your base when you DON'T need to, however, leads to a similar outcome.
Nor does 'being as offensive as possible' mean 'being aggressive constantly'. There's a pretty massive difference between the two.
I think you'll probably find that terrans also lose a lot of games because they're not aggressive enough and get rolled by superior economy.
Why would a zerg care about saccing their army when they can remax so effectively and with better units.
Sure, it can take time to do, but you'd have to trade ridiculously efficiently to destroy one zerg army and immediately be able to push further on.
Don't forget that all the while you're having to clear our creep/spines from having turtled for so long.
Your way of approaching TvZ is exactly why master terrans lose so much.
You're essentially advocating what can be considered some three base all in play where if zerg DOES end up rolling your army, they're up 5 bases against 2/3 with far more versatile tech switches.
Go watch some pro games and see how much they turtle on 3 bases cos I sure as hell don't see it very much in games they win.
DWF: You think a zerg who's not being attacked is really going to spend gas on banelings? No. He's going to be building more mutalisks, getting more upgrades, getting a faster hive etc. He can max out on zergling/baneling/muta but he can also go for a faster hive. At which point you can be forced into a position of 'oh shit well I better attack now or else I die to hive tech'. Have you seen how much difficulty mass muta styles like Idra and Leenock give terrans? How much difficulty do you think it gives the average terran in this thread? Being offensive with your units limits how much attention zergs can pay to making more mutalisks and harassing with them.
In short: Be offensive without overcommiting, (aka as offensive as possible) and you're dandy.
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Don't worry too much about the "superior economy" part, with 3 saturated bases and MULEs you have more than enough income to max out quickly and efficiently.
Zerg may have more bases, but unless they have spent way too much supply on drones their economy isn't that much greater.
In a big army engagement the terran player should have a decent amount left over, if not he has microed poorly.
Oh and there are loads of games Idra has lost by making too many mutas and then being forced to directly attack a terran army with them. Those games did not go well for Idra, not very cost efficient at all.
Here is a nice defensive game for you:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011wcg/vod/66683/?set=2&lang=
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...If terran is on 3 base, his surplus goes into more OCs and more barracks...You get more OCs, and econ is same, if you're not flying ahead by dropping 5+ mules at a time. All it takes is one good engagement, and you can take a 4th, put tanks and bunkers and turrets, and take the middle of the map.
And once you see hive tech, yes you do get offensive. You don't out right push to win, but you get a more forward position to try and force larva into something other than ultras, infestors, or broodlords. You take a base behind your aggression, and push forward safely as can be and get more barracks for ghost production.
Tier3 zerg is not nearly as scarey as people make it to be. Yes, it's very hard to play against, but I find more trouble in infestor ling bling than ultra ling infestor, or broodlord infestor...The better you get with ghosts, as I'm slowly finding out, the easier late game TvZ seems to become. You can negate almost all detectors in a few snipes and land better EMPs or snipes.
You do realize there are many things a terran can do to force a zerg players hand and force an attack?
TvZ to me feels like you have to earn every advancement on the map.
Sure, it can take time to do, but you'd have to trade ridiculously efficiently to destroy one zerg army and immediately be able to push further on.
Don't forget that all the while you're having to clear our creep/spines from having turtled for so long.
Playing defensively doesn't mean not being on the map... It just means you dedicate more tanks and marines to sitting at home to drop any kind of run by or muta harass. You still deny creep. It's not like there's a huge gap in time from a ~9 min timing push off two base, 12-13 minute follow up push with third established behind it, and a 15-16 minute push with better upgrades, off of three bases.
To be honest, everyone has their own styles. I prefer to be aggressive early, then sit back and push again, and again and I never max. Not well into 18+ minutes when I'm on 3-4 base, and 5-7 OCs.
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ok so youre saying terrans should just stay put get a third.....
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.... im pretty sure zerg is the only race where they can get 5 drones at a time. guess what while youre 3 is getting set up the zerg has 3 good saturated bases. and all they have to do is jsut attack the terran cause they can remax their army iwht a superior economy early on. I mean i have never seen a terran win when they let zerg macro.
And guess what you say "Zerg may have more bases, but unless they have spen tway too much supply on drones their economy isn't that much greater"
The the point of zerg having more bases is cause they dont have production buildigns they have larvae. how fast do you think zerg can remax on 5 bases with good injects???
2-3 flow of units and they are maxed right away. that is why terrans push. Not because we cant catch up on economy which iwth mules nothing is impossible, but because we dont want zerg to be rally units infinitely.
BTW mules are that great as you might think it is. (To a sense it hurts you in the very very late game where you will mine out faster and run out of mins but that is game dependent) I dont know if people realize that mules actually dont give you MORE money, it only gives you FASTER money flowing in.....but of course Mules are neccessary as terran ill always be behind in workers....
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On January 01 2012 05:26 Kakoon wrote:
ok so youre saying terrans should just stay put get a third.....
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.... im pretty sure zerg is the only race where they can get 5 drones at a time. guess what while youre 3 is getting set up the zerg has 3 good saturated bases. and all they have to do is jsut attack the terran cause they can remax their army iwht a superior economy early on. I mean i have never seen a terran win when they let zerg macro.
And guess what you say "Zerg may have more bases, but unless they have spen tway too much supply on drones their economy isn't that much greater"
The the point of zerg having more bases is cause they dont have production buildigns they have larvae. how fast do you think zerg can remax on 5 bases with good injects???
2-3 flow of units and they are maxed right away. that is why terrans push. Not because we cant catch up on economy which iwth mules nothing is impossible, but because we dont want zerg to be rally units infinitely.
BTW mules are that great as you might think it is. (To a sense it hurts you in the very very late game where you will mine out faster and run out of mins but that is game dependent) I dont know if people realize that mules actually dont give you MORE money, it only gives you FASTER money flowing in.....but of course Mules are neccessary as terran ill always be behind in workers....
Yawn, just as I expected. Yes, everyone has their own style. This infact works for many people, myself including lately. I play at a decently high level to at least advocate it to lesser terran players, as the zergs they play won't be able to match what I face.
You seem to be a solid TvZ rager, and I shall leave you be. But a tip, maybe just learn to control your units better and you will see you don't have to be so aggressive, you will retain more units after an engagement if you engage favorably and target well with tanks.
I am, and was, one of the worst ragers in TvZ. So I started cheesing a lot. I have since returned to macro playing them, to a degree, and it's very rewarding forcing superior zerg players to lose to me.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
Whoa guys I think we can relax here. There are a lot of ways to play TvZ, aggressively and defensively. On certain maps or with certain compositions, it's actually viable to not put on as much pressure. For example, I think Shakuras Plateau is a classic example of a map where terran can just expand a bunch and play defensively due to the map layout heavily favoring a tank-based army on the defensive. On the other hand, big maps like Tal'Darim altar make it more difficult for terran to play defensively as the game goes on (though on three base play you are rather safe).
Also, certain army compositions, like mech+ghost, are pretty solid at taking out multiple waves of zerg units without losing any strength. Others, like Marine/Tank, are lest cost-effective but have other advantages in terms of mobility, ability to remax, dropping, etc.
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On January 01 2012 05:32 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 05:26 Kakoon wrote:
ok so youre saying terrans should just stay put get a third.....
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.... im pretty sure zerg is the only race where they can get 5 drones at a time. guess what while youre 3 is getting set up the zerg has 3 good saturated bases. and all they have to do is jsut attack the terran cause they can remax their army iwht a superior economy early on. I mean i have never seen a terran win when they let zerg macro.
And guess what you say "Zerg may have more bases, but unless they have spen tway too much supply on drones their economy isn't that much greater"
The the point of zerg having more bases is cause they dont have production buildigns they have larvae. how fast do you think zerg can remax on 5 bases with good injects???
2-3 flow of units and they are maxed right away. that is why terrans push. Not because we cant catch up on economy which iwth mules nothing is impossible, but because we dont want zerg to be rally units infinitely.
BTW mules are that great as you might think it is. (To a sense it hurts you in the very very late game where you will mine out faster and run out of mins but that is game dependent) I dont know if people realize that mules actually dont give you MORE money, it only gives you FASTER money flowing in.....but of course Mules are neccessary as terran ill always be behind in workers.... Yawn, just as I expected. Yes, everyone has their own style. This infact works for many people, myself including lately. I play at a decently high level to at least advocate it to lesser terran players, as the zergs they play won't be able to match what I face. You seem to be a solid TvZ rager, and I shall leave you be. But a tip, maybe just learn to control your units better and you will see you don't have to be so aggressive, you will retain more units after an engagement if you engage favorably and target well with tanks. I am, and was, one of the worst ragers in TvZ. So I started cheesing a lot. I have since returned to macro playing them, to a degree, and it's very rewarding forcing superior zerg players to lose to me.
Im not saying TvZ is bad. or any other unbalanced word.Im just saying that the mechanic of Zerg favor more of a macro early and rally infinite unit kind of thing. Of course there are different ways of playing the game, and none of it is RIGHT, but leaving zerg as is is not a good way to play zerg (IMO).
TvZ Rager??? well i dont know what that means but no i love TvZ its my favorite match up and probably the most fun to watch. And like you mention late game TvZ is not as hard as it seems, I love all the gameplay of a TvZ but i think leaving ZErg to macro is not the right choice to make.
EDIT* To add about the comment of controlling my units better... Im pretty good at micro however some people arent. In fact most people are pretty bad at this game as of mechanics compared to the pros. only a small group of people in the masters league could probably play as well as a pro. That being said saying i should control my units better? Well i pretty good with micro and macro maybe not as good as you but decent enough to play zerg at diamond level and win. So im just saying I love TvZ and im not a player who just comes to forums to rage at zerg cause i suck... 
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Exactly my point. You come in with crass biased statements, that are frankly wrong, and defend them for some reason semi ragerishly...
And then come back and say I'm good enough to be at the diamond level and win tvz. Exactly my point. You can see it done, but you haven't truly faced many good zerg players.
The tip of controlling your units better is a serious, not trolling statement. I've noted the better I get at preseplitting, making concaves, and split harassing while pushing the better my TvZ has gotten. I used to die to ling bane with a ~9 min timing push of stim mara marine hellion... now I just mass split and handle it calmly and comfortably, and continue the aggression.
Simple fixes of unit control make a match up so much more bearable. Same in TvP. Pre scanning, and spreading as you enter a tosses natural so they cannot FF you off too effectively is key to deal with early game TvP pushes.
Don't take it all so shitty, as it was actually meant as a serious statement.
Also, certain army compositions, like mech+ghost, are pretty solid at taking out multiple waves of zerg units without losing any strength. Others, like Marine/Tank, are lest cost-effective but have other advantages in terms of mobility, ability to remax, dropping, etc.
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I somehow think per cost and time, marine tank is by far more cost effective against zerg than mech. I have yet to get on the mech train against zerg, I feel there are too many ways to abuse it, especially on some of the newer maps. However, that being said, some maps call for mech so easily. Shakuras. Xelnaga. Etc so it's not like a lost art or bad strategy.
Back to the control thing... the better you control, the more cost effective marine tank is. It's a composition that is rewarding based upon how well you handle them. You ball up and engage marines in front tanks in the back and don't stim/split, of course ling bling is imba.
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ive been looking for a while and havent been able to find anything which really properly answers my question
in one of the most recent day9 dailies he talks about terran not using mules late game because scans are more valuable. when do mules become less viable in the game? my thought processes are that if you can scan then the information u gain from the scouting is worth more than the extra minerals the mules would get you. but also it is important to have that mineral surplus late game as T to remax asap after a big engagement.
does this scan >>>> mule idea only hold true for gas heavy builds (eg mech) or is it always more valuable late game? is it as simple as there is no point getting more minerals faster when you have a lot of unspendable mins anyway? if so, what is the counter for the argument for the need to have lots of mins lategame for tech switches + remaxing?
ty <3
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EPT
