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On January 01 2012 12:44 Pitto wrote:
ive been looking for a while and havent been able to find anything which really properly answers my question
in one of the most recent day9 dailies he talks about terran not using mules late game because scans are more valuable. when do mules become less viable in the game? my thought processes are that if you can scan then the information u gain from the scouting is worth more than the extra minerals the mules would get you. but also it is important to have that mineral surplus late game as T to remax asap after a big engagement.
does this scan >>>> mule idea only hold true for gas heavy builds (eg mech) or is it always more valuable late game? is it as simple as there is no point getting more minerals faster when you have a lot of unspendable mins anyway? if so, what is the counter for the argument for the need to have lots of mins lategame for tech switches + remaxing?
ty <3
What match up are you asking about? Terran naturally get more OCs as we approach max, and dropping 15 mules....dropping 7 and using 8 scans...which is better. 15 mules will drain a mineral patch too fast, and the income is too choppy. Just a few here and there with scvs is enough to supplement a nice income.
Scans are a positioning force, believe it or not. Scan a protoss natural ramp one time. Watch those units split and position up . TvT? scan his tanks when there's no one with air dominance, and he will be forced to scan you, or unsiege and pull back. Scans keep you in the loop, and let you know where and what another race is going.
Optimally, you'll keep mining at least 1-2 bases at all times to support all your 'remaxing' needs. However, there's no more depots, no more scvs, no more turrets usually, no more upgrades.. Just units. You'll find you have enough with only dropping a few mules here and there.
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whao my question set off a huge debate on how to play tvz
i was told by a player that sitting on 3 bases wasn't goign to get me through because i had no map control, which led me to ask that question xDDD
yes, it's true that with a fast third base, you can almost max out at the 15 minute mark. Besides, if the zerg sees you're turtling and then expands like 3 times, he's going to have spent a lot of resources on building hatcheries and no army.
ah, tvz is a confusing matchup indeed, of course, i'm supposing that everyone's just answering my question based on their own playstyle, lol.
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Speaking of TvZ, is full mech viable on all maps? I'm starting to play that style and I'm concerned on bigger maps like Tal Darim. Biggest map I actually play mech on is probably Antiga since it's a pretty easy 3rd and occupying the center watch tower with a censor tower there is essentially map hack.
I play a mech style very similar to the one IMHappy played against DRG in GSL November. LOTS of Hellions at the start hitting at a +1 attack and blue flame timing. Final push at +3 attack, Still working on possible Air / Ghost / Marauder transitions for Hive Tech.
Maps I do this build on: Antiga, Shakuras, Metalopolis
Vetoed maps: Entombed Valley, Arid Plateau, Shattered Temple
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On January 01 2012 05:26 Kakoon wrote:
ok so youre saying terrans should just stay put get a third.....
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.... im pretty sure zerg is the only race where they can get 5 drones at a time. guess what while youre 3 is getting set up the zerg has 3 good saturated bases.
You are taking all of this out of context, no one ever said turtle all game long. We are advocating defensive play when zerg has a high muta count and terran does not yet have a strong enough army to make a death push.
I usually start TvZ with a strong push around 9 minutes to deny a fast third, or any other form of greedy play. This will continue until the zerg is dead or the pushes stop being cost efficient. In the latter case it is time to play defensively for a while to build up an army that can engage head on in a cost efficient manner.
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Does anyone have good TvT guides or fpvods with commentary? I'm really struggling in this matchup and i get frustrated playing TvT's.
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Anyone knows what's the build order leading to MKP's 2reactor rax, 1fac for siege tank with an expo push? I'm trying several things to do early marine/tank pushes in TvP (got bored of pure bio) and I'd like to steal some pieces of his build.
Thanks a lot.
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Hey
Can anyone link me some vods or replays of 12/14 rax with bunker rush TvZ? I'm talking about pro matches, I know the build but I'd like to learn how to execute the rush best (scout, timing, placement, micro, etc.).
Thank you
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME.... im pretty sure zerg is the only race where they can get 5 drones at a time. guess what while youre 3 is getting set up the zerg has 3 good saturated bases. and all they have to do is jsut attack the terran cause they can remax their army iwht a superior economy early on. I mean i have never seen a terran win when they let zerg macro.
MVP
Anyone knows what's the build order leading to MKP's 2reactor rax, 1fac for siege tank with an expo push? I'm trying several things to do early marine/tank pushes in TvP (got bored of pure bio) and I'd like to steal some pieces of his build.
I've seen MKP do similar stuff as well, like an Expansion into 1/1/1 build that hits before colossus.
Don't forget though that Adebisi makes mistakes as well. He's a great terran to watch to see what an average Masters league Terran looks like, and to think about what he could have done better, and what went wrong.
in one of the most recent day9 dailies he talks about terran not using mules late game because scans are more valuable. when do mules become less viable in the game? my thought processes are that if you can scan then the information u gain from the scouting is worth more than the extra minerals the mules would get you. but also it is important to have that mineral surplus late game as T to remax asap after a big engagement.
That only applies if you don't know what the opponent is doing, and you are missing some vital information (Like where his army is). If you somehow know a lot of scouting information, don't use too many scans. You'll see players like Bomber on his stream not use his OC energy for a long time in the late game because he knows everything the opponent is doing through skilled Watchtower control and constant army movement.
The tip of controlling your units better is a serious, not trolling statement. I've noted the better I get at preseplitting, making concaves, and split harassing while pushing the better my TvZ has gotten. I used to die to ling bane with a ~9 min timing push of stim mara marine hellion... now I just mass split and handle it calmly and comfortably, and continue the aggression.
That is true. I almost entirely lose all my TvZ games because of army mismanagement, not because of macro errors. Learning to react immediately to what you see in TvZ is a requirement, and taking of your army is what wins you the game: Past gold league, you can macro all you want better than that Zerg, if you forget to siege up and split those marines you cannot win a single TvZ game.
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whats the best respond after you see a protoss one base all ining you f.e i have alot of trouble with the warpprism all in. i 1 rax fe every game against protoss and i lose alot to all ins like this.most of the time i dont have enough units to defend at 2 fronts and im clueless what to do in a situation like this.
im diamond terran
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I've been starting with Terran letely, after mainly playing Protoss and have so far reached Rank 2 in Bronze League (That's something atleast, right? lol).
I still struggle with the TvT Matchup.
Either my opponent is going Siege Tank / MMM, and I crush him with Thors / MMM, or
My Opponent is going Banshee Harass, and I can't get them. I try to push out (basically ignoring the Banshees as I already had 3 more expansions), but get beaten by MMM / Siege Tank / Thor.
My huge problem is the Banshee Harass. I only had it in 2 matches or so, and in one match I even saw the Banshee and went Mass Marines; Basically, I'm not too sure whether I should quickly go for an Engineering Bay and then build alot of Missile Turrets, rather than going Mass Marines and maybe not have the ability to scan and let him wreck my economy.
The thing about Missile Turrets is I'm pretty scared of it, as I'm mostly going MMM, even in TvT (I still haven't found a better strategy tbh), and Engineering Bay seems like a waste of ressources until Mid Game / Late Game as I mostly don't need the upgrades.
So yeah, I'm wondering if it's really worth it going Engineering Bay early in the game and build a few Missile Turrets once I see a Starport?
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Simply build turrets at the 6min mark, one in the mineal line and maybe next to the production, if you want. Then, either have at least one viking or some marines to dispel the banshee.
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Just use a 1-1-1 build and get viking/raven to deal with bancheese
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On January 02 2012 05:16 tryteyker wrote:
I've been starting with Terran letely, after mainly playing Protoss and have so far reached Rank 2 in Bronze League (That's something atleast, right? lol).
I still struggle with the TvT Matchup.
Either my opponent is going Siege Tank / MMM, and I crush him with Thors / MMM
Thors are not really a good idea, they're slow, don't add much and take too much space on the battle field. You'd do better with Tanks of your own, or just pure bio.
On January 02 2012 05:16 tryteyker wrote:
The thing about Missile Turrets is I'm pretty scared of it, as I'm mostly going MMM, even in TvT (I still haven't found a better strategy tbh), and Engineering Bay seems like a waste of ressources until Mid Game / Late Game as I mostly don't need the upgrades.
So yeah, I'm wondering if it's really worth it going Engineering Bay early in the game and build a few Missile Turrets once I see a Starport?
You should research your upgrades as soon as possible, and you need an EB anyway if you don't build a Raven to provide detection (the problem with scans is, the Banshee can simply go away, wait for the Scan to fade, then come back). So if you scout or suspect Banshee play, get an EB. One or two turrets in the mineral line should do if you have Marines, perhaps one too around your production facilities so the cloaked Banshee cannot snipe your add-ons.
About TvT strategies, Marine/Tanks (without Marauders, unless your opponent plays mech) is probably the most common composition in TvT. Pure bio and mech are of course playable too.
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This isn't more of a question, but I just want to get and idea on other Terran's opinions on how you should get the right unit composition for a maxed out army.
While watching replays of my losing games, sometimes i'll have an advantage/equal economy on my opponent, and i'll just straight up lose the main engagement and get run over. I know my unit control is part of the problem, but i'll play against protoss/zergs that will engage just as poorly as myself, and they will still come out ahead (blowing up banelings on tanks/having stalkers infront of zealots, etc.)
I wondered to myself, "I make just as much army than my opponent, I have a better economy, why am I still losing?" Recently, I watched a losing TvZ replay of myself, and it struck me. I made TOO MANY marines (yes, its possible apparently). I then noticed in my other games, that its completely normal for me to have 90+ marines in my games. I end up with an army of only 5-6 tanks, a few medivacs, and the rest marines. I get overrun by ling/bling/infestor and a sprinkle of higher tech units quite often.
Of course, if I had the multitasking to drop 2-3 medivacs at a time, or the army control to split my marines like a korean terran, it wouldn't be of a big issue. But myself, i'm in diamond league, I need a composition that won't instantly get overrun by my opponents army.
Sorry for a bit of a read, but heres my question to you all. How do you guys go about making a good army?
I've come to think that, when i'm reaching near maxed (170-180 supply), I should just stop and think about what I should add to my current composition, rather than spamming out more marines. There are probably better ways of course to go about this, such as making an earlier second factory so i'll have more tanks mixed in, but that might also prevent me from having enough marines spread out to defend mutas and such.
So whats your way of getting a good composition, and also, what number of what units do you need to be comfortable engaging the opponent?
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Against a Zerg going lings/banelings/mutas, for your maxed army, I'd say get ~10+ Tanks, 2 Thors, 5-8 Medivacs and Marines for the rest. Skip Thors and get more Medivacs/Tanks if he goes Infests.
Against Protoss, it depends on what they go; you'll want to be more Marine-heavy against Zealots-heavy compositions, and obviously you'll want Vikings against Colossi (~3 Vikings per Colossus) and Ghosts against Archons/HTs. Against Protoss, you should always have Ghosts in your maxed army, anyway.
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I was watching the GSL recently and the casters were talking about a new aggressive TvP build going around in Korea. It's a marauder hellion push. I've done a couple times myself with good success but I haven't figured out exactly what to do after the push. I only saw the one game where it was done so I am essentially free-styling it. I was wondering if any one was familiar with this build and could point me to some replays or other resources about it.
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On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:
Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that;
a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack
b) It is harder for the zerg to expand
c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases.
d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep
e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward
Okay, so exactly how do you go about doing that xD. I have no clue how I made it to Plat without knowing this at all. Could you like, provide an example, a diagram, or a replay? I'm not understanding how you do that and accomplish those five things.
Perhaps there is some commentated VOD or tutorial that explains this concept well?
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I need some help TvZ. Whenever I play this matchup I feel like there's nothing I can do. Whenever I push out of my base it feels like an all in attack to me, since mutas can swoop in and kill the production off. Drops get shut down because of mutas and lings, and when I push with my main army they just seem to have way more units than me, not to mention creep spread allowing for vision and easier surrounds. It feels like all I can do is hole up in my base and try to max like a protoss does, but this doesn't really work as terran since the units aren't as good. Any help?
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On January 02 2012 07:48 deathtrance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 03:29 Absentia wrote:
Ideally you NEVER want to be in your base in TvZ for too long. If you're sitting in your base for an extended period of time then you're simply playing the matchup wrong. You want to control the main attack paths so that;
a) It is harder for the zerg to counter-attack
b) It is harder for the zerg to expand
c) It is harder for the zerg to defend his existing bases.
d) It is harder for the zerg for extend his creep
e) It is harder for the zerg to create his ideal army because he has to worry about you pushing forward
Okay, so exactly how do you go about doing that xD. I have no clue how I made it to Plat without knowing this at all. Could you like, provide an example, a diagram, or a replay? I'm not understanding how you do that and accomplish those five things. Perhaps there is some commentated VOD or tutorial that explains this concept well?
You could check ThorZaiN's games, he usually does slow pushes (spoon terran FTW).
The best exemple is Xel Naga Caverns, and why the planetary on the gold is really powerful. Between the two nats there are two xel naga covering almost all the attack paths. Then there are 4 other bases available. Once you put your lovely pf on the gold, in TvZ you just take one xel naga, wall one side and then there is only one path of attack for everyone. You're on the middle of the freaking map with a pf behind you, a xel naga tower for the vision and 3 of the 4 possible map for the zerg are easily accesible, you just have to unsiege once.
The other solution is to play an hyper aggressive style either with constant attacks (like MKP) or constant harass (Mvp, MMA). You talked about drop being shutdown by zerglings/mutas. First of all once mutas are out you should multi drop, then the main point of dropping si that it allows you to advance your main army in late game, take xel nagas or a good position, do annoying stuff like dropping tanks on cliffes or simply attacking another expansion.
MMA vs DRG at the Blizz cup, game 7, is the best exemple, the drops did not so much damage but they constantly allowed MMA to take good spots on the map.
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EPT
