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On October 30 2011 22:14 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:30 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 30 2011 09:06 BoBiNoU wrote:How do you deal with a 3rax/stim/ghost push ? I'm seriously clueless about that... if you spread your units they evaporate to the small stimmed force and as soon as you attack, emp kicks in http://replayfu.com/download/pgzDxcok this is not the best example as I alt-tab'd a lot in the early game Well first your BO was pretty badly executed and 1 gate robo expand is the kind of stuff you want to do against 1/1/1 or for really fast collosus, it isn't that great when used for other stuff. You didn't poke with your scouting probe or with a stalker to see whether or not he was getting an add on, does he have a bunker, how many marines does he have, does he have marauders, etc etc etc. to hold that timing push you need to get additional gates earlier, spread your sentries, forcefield and micro, or rush for collosus, use force fields, and again, micro, pull some probes if needed but not more than 5-6. I did see a marauder so ... if I poke with a stalker and he has cc, it's a free unit lost. I agree the 1gate robo expand is not the best but if I dont expand, he expands behind this push which is very unlikely to be crushed
you def had time to poke with a stalker, you just took like 20 secs before starting it after your cybernetics core finished, the guy made a couple of marines before even starting the tech lab ;;
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On October 31 2011 01:30 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 01:18 FrostyYeti wrote:
Hey there guys, I'm a gold protoss that recently switched from zerg. And I'm having a lot of trouble with PvZ, oddly. I usually just FFE. But then I just can't do anything to the zerg, and when I do move out my army just gets completely crushed and I lose the game.
I can pick apart what I'm doing wrong, I'm just attacking too late. But what can I do to put on fast pressure out of a FFE? Or should I just switch openings? I don't really like stargate after FFE. Why do you get crushed when you move out? What time do you move out? What're your upgrades, supply count, unit composition? Replay pleaseee, too many ifs. You're not supposed to be able to put on fast pressure after a FFE. That's the point of the build, to get an economic advantage so you can get a nice timing attack with a strong army. But then again, it depends on scouting, etc. REPLAYS.
Alright, here's 2 replays. I can spot the main errors, I get a nasty supply block, I don't get my collosi tech asap, but the main thing that sticks out to me is that I just let my army get wiped out then if he has mutas he just harrasses me too hard.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14821
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14822
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opening however, I cannot seem to deal with mmm in pvt and roaches in pvz
the only time I win vs these things is when I'm super ahead/wayyy better than my opponent
I know in theory i can get chargelots/cols/temps(late) for mmm and ffs/immos/voids for roaches
but in practice this never seems to work
now that I'm typing this I guess my response vs terran should be double forge and vs zerg double robo as it's way more solid than stargate.. void rays are terrible vs roach as funny as that sounds...
maybe my root problem is too many gateway units... but vs terran the stim timing is ridiculously hard to deal with without charge/cols but also hard to get in time without rushing blind.. actually I guess I need to work on my builds/timings in the midgame... my midgame is usually more like a macro or die scenario than an actual plan I'm usually solely focused on keeping all my structures building, expanding, and denying cheese... which should be automatic i guess.... which i guess all circles back to i need to practice more... vs zerg double robo could actually be good when not against mass roach with wp/obs play and then obv cols..
/rant/ I'll still post this so maybe i remember it
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On October 31 2011 02:12 FLiP491 wrote:
opening however, I cannot seem to deal with mmm in pvt and roaches in pvz
the only time I win vs these things is when I'm super ahead/wayyy better than my opponent
I know in theory i can get chargelots/cols/temps(late) for mmm and ffs/immos/voids for roaches
but in practice this never seems to work
now that I'm typing this I guess my response vs terran should be double forge and vs zerg double robo as it's way more solid than stargate.. void rays are terrible vs roach as funny as that sounds...
maybe my root problem is too many gateway units... but vs terran the stim timing is ridiculously hard to deal with without charge/cols but also hard to get in time without rushing blind.. actually I guess I need to work on my builds/timings in the midgame... my midgame is usually more like a macro or die scenario than an actual plan I'm usually solely focused on keeping all my structures building, expanding, and denying cheese... which should be automatic i guess.... which i guess all circles back to i need to practice more... vs zerg double robo could actually be good when not against mass roach with wp/obs play and then obv cols..
/rant/ I'll still post this so maybe i remember it
Yes practice is always good  Come back if it doesn't work.
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Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it.
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why?
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On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it.
Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation).
On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why?
because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; .
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On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; .
wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling?
you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball.
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On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball.
This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons.
But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment.
Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost.
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On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost.
voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta...
you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg.
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On October 31 2011 01:53 FrostyYeti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 01:30 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 01:18 FrostyYeti wrote:
Hey there guys, I'm a gold protoss that recently switched from zerg. And I'm having a lot of trouble with PvZ, oddly. I usually just FFE. But then I just can't do anything to the zerg, and when I do move out my army just gets completely crushed and I lose the game.
I can pick apart what I'm doing wrong, I'm just attacking too late. But what can I do to put on fast pressure out of a FFE? Or should I just switch openings? I don't really like stargate after FFE. Why do you get crushed when you move out? What time do you move out? What're your upgrades, supply count, unit composition? Replay pleaseee, too many ifs. You're not supposed to be able to put on fast pressure after a FFE. That's the point of the build, to get an economic advantage so you can get a nice timing attack with a strong army. But then again, it depends on scouting, etc. REPLAYS. Alright, here's 2 replays. I can spot the main errors, I get a nasty supply block, I don't get my collosi tech asap, but the main thing that sticks out to me is that I just let my army get wiped out then if he has mutas he just harrasses me too hard. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14821http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14822
Here's an example of myself using FFE stargate to harass and take another base.
http://drop.sc/39760
Shakuras plateau PvZ - diamond league.
I opened stargate to pressure the third, than used a warp prism +1 zealot drop with my voids to harass the third and occupy his army while pushing the natural with my gateway force. Not very hard to execute, and is a pretty standard PvZ timing. My in battle macro slipped, and as such the game appeared closer at the end than it should have.
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On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg.
Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works.
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On November 01 2011 01:08 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg. Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works.
I can't say I've actually tried it but...how on earth does that work?
Immortals can't shoot air and don't do splash damage so both lings and mutas should eat them alive.
Void Rays similarly aren't so good against lots of small, weak targets and can get picked off fairly effectively by mutas.
The mothership takes ages to tech to and build and is expensive, and again isn't very effective against zerglings. About the only thing I could think of being useful on the mothership is using vortex to cut the size of the zerg army. But again you've just got no splash at all so you just can't take out the numbers effectively (keeping in mind how fast zerg can remax off the four or five bases he'll have by the time you have this composition).
And all of the above is just assuming you can actually build up your force and engage in the first place rather than being harrassed to death by his growing muta ball. If you're able to get this kind of composition in the first place you must be facing the most passive zerg I've ever seen. And then I honestly can't see how on earth you can win an engagement against ling/muta with this composition. Surely the mutas will just wipe the mothership and clean up the void rays whilst the lings wipe out the immortals? Even if you kill all the lings with your immortals the mutas can finish off the immortals who can't fight back and then the zerg remaxes on a ton of zerglings and just a-moves your bases.
More details and a replay would be nice as proof of concept, because I honestly flat out can't see how you can even make this even slightly feasible to suggest it as a strategy for people. If its correct then all credit to you, but I'm honestly not convinced by what you've described.
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On November 01 2011 01:59 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:08 Latedi wrote:On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg. Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works. I can't say I've actually tried it but...how on earth does that work? Immortals can't shoot air and don't do splash damage so both lings and mutas should eat them alive. Void Rays similarly aren't so good against lots of small, weak targets and can get picked off fairly effectively by mutas. The mothership takes ages to tech to and build and is expensive, and again isn't very effective against zerglings. About the only thing I could think of being useful on the mothership is using vortex to cut the size of the zerg army. But again you've just got no splash at all so you just can't take out the numbers effectively (keeping in mind how fast zerg can remax off the four or five bases he'll have by the time you have this composition). And all of the above is just assuming you can actually build up your force and engage in the first place rather than being harrassed to death by his growing muta ball. If you're able to get this kind of composition in the first place you must be facing the most passive zerg I've ever seen. And then I honestly can't see how on earth you can win an engagement against ling/muta with this composition. Surely the mutas will just wipe the mothership and clean up the void rays whilst the lings wipe out the immortals? Even if you kill all the lings with your immortals the mutas can finish off the immortals who can't fight back and then the zerg remaxes on a ton of zerglings and just a-moves your bases. More details and a replay would be nice as proof of concept, because I honestly flat out can't see how you can even make this even slightly feasible to suggest it as a strategy for people. If its correct then all credit to you, but I'm honestly not convinced by what you've described.
Look, mothership/void ray and inmortals are for LATE GAME as a response to the fact the zerg is gonna transition into roach/brood lord/left over mutas from mid game (this composition might or might not include ultras, infestors and/or baneling bombs), if the zerg does not transition and gets maxed out with ling/muta(bling?) you just go kill him with your 4-5 base archon/blink stalker/HT ball and you win the game easily (EVEN if he decides to backstab you should have around 6-10 cannons + 1-2 HTs per base so you will win anyways).
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On November 01 2011 04:34 Darkness2k11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:59 Lightspeaker wrote:On November 01 2011 01:08 Latedi wrote:On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg. Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works. I can't say I've actually tried it but...how on earth does that work? Immortals can't shoot air and don't do splash damage so both lings and mutas should eat them alive. Void Rays similarly aren't so good against lots of small, weak targets and can get picked off fairly effectively by mutas. The mothership takes ages to tech to and build and is expensive, and again isn't very effective against zerglings. About the only thing I could think of being useful on the mothership is using vortex to cut the size of the zerg army. But again you've just got no splash at all so you just can't take out the numbers effectively (keeping in mind how fast zerg can remax off the four or five bases he'll have by the time you have this composition). And all of the above is just assuming you can actually build up your force and engage in the first place rather than being harrassed to death by his growing muta ball. If you're able to get this kind of composition in the first place you must be facing the most passive zerg I've ever seen. And then I honestly can't see how on earth you can win an engagement against ling/muta with this composition. Surely the mutas will just wipe the mothership and clean up the void rays whilst the lings wipe out the immortals? Even if you kill all the lings with your immortals the mutas can finish off the immortals who can't fight back and then the zerg remaxes on a ton of zerglings and just a-moves your bases. More details and a replay would be nice as proof of concept, because I honestly flat out can't see how you can even make this even slightly feasible to suggest it as a strategy for people. If its correct then all credit to you, but I'm honestly not convinced by what you've described. Look, mothership/void ray and inmortals are for LATE GAME as a response to the fact the zerg is gonna transition into roach/brood lord/left over mutas from mid game (this composition might or might not include ultras, infestors and/or baneling bombs), if the zerg does not transition and gets maxed out with ling/muta(bling?) you just go kill him with your 4-5 base archon/blink stalker/HT ball and you win the game easily (EVEN if he decides to backstab you should have around 6-10 cannons + 1-2 HTs per base so you will win anyways).
But you missed the step where you have to survive the protoss on 2 base, zerg on 3 base and harassing part.
Which is probably the crux of the PvZ muta ling problem, right now.
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On November 01 2011 04:34 Darkness2k11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:59 Lightspeaker wrote:On November 01 2011 01:08 Latedi wrote:On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg. Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works. I can't say I've actually tried it but...how on earth does that work? Immortals can't shoot air and don't do splash damage so both lings and mutas should eat them alive. Void Rays similarly aren't so good against lots of small, weak targets and can get picked off fairly effectively by mutas. The mothership takes ages to tech to and build and is expensive, and again isn't very effective against zerglings. About the only thing I could think of being useful on the mothership is using vortex to cut the size of the zerg army. But again you've just got no splash at all so you just can't take out the numbers effectively (keeping in mind how fast zerg can remax off the four or five bases he'll have by the time you have this composition). And all of the above is just assuming you can actually build up your force and engage in the first place rather than being harrassed to death by his growing muta ball. If you're able to get this kind of composition in the first place you must be facing the most passive zerg I've ever seen. And then I honestly can't see how on earth you can win an engagement against ling/muta with this composition. Surely the mutas will just wipe the mothership and clean up the void rays whilst the lings wipe out the immortals? Even if you kill all the lings with your immortals the mutas can finish off the immortals who can't fight back and then the zerg remaxes on a ton of zerglings and just a-moves your bases. More details and a replay would be nice as proof of concept, because I honestly flat out can't see how you can even make this even slightly feasible to suggest it as a strategy for people. If its correct then all credit to you, but I'm honestly not convinced by what you've described. Look, mothership/void ray and inmortals are for LATE GAME as a response to the fact the zerg is gonna transition into roach/brood lord/left over mutas from mid game (this composition might or might not include ultras, infestors and/or baneling bombs), if the zerg does not transition and gets maxed out with ling/muta(bling?) you just go kill him with your 4-5 base archon/blink stalker/HT ball and you win the game easily (EVEN if he decides to backstab you should have around 6-10 cannons + 1-2 HTs per base so you will win anyways).
And yet zerg can transition remax way faster than Protoss can. Can nobody explain how on earth you actually GET to this composition fast enough? Late game Zerg can just suicide his army onto yours and remaxing with roach/corruptor>broodlord off the five bases minimum he'll have late game. Do you build a dozen robos and stargates or something?
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How are you guys scouting for proxies in PvP on shattered and metal?
I've been 12 scouting, hitting gold, third and watch tower but the scout gets to their base so late.
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On November 01 2011 19:28 JonnyLaw wrote:
How are you guys scouting for proxies in PvP on shattered and metal?
I've been 12 scouting, hitting gold, third and watch tower but the scout gets to their base so late.
It's easy now without close positions. Just go to the base, don't scout for the actual proxy.
Once you see nothing, throw down a second gate. The only base you NEED to scout for proxies is TDA.
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I don't think a 12 scout can get to see anything in time on cross positions metal.
It won't arrive until core's already down and they have zealots in your base.
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On November 01 2011 19:54 JonnyLaw wrote:
I don't think a 12 scout can get to see anything in time on cross positions metal.
It won't arrive until core's already down and they have zealots in your base.
Why are you 12 scouting?
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On November 01 2011 19:10 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:34 Darkness2k11 wrote:On November 01 2011 01:59 Lightspeaker wrote:On November 01 2011 01:08 Latedi wrote:On November 01 2011 00:12 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 20:56 Latedi wrote:On October 31 2011 16:04 mizU wrote:On October 31 2011 09:08 Darkness2k11 wrote:On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
Hi guys i have 2 questions
1) How to fight muta/ling or muta/ling/roach mid to late game. I found out that +2 weapons is pretty critical and owns muta but lings kill me. Archons just get magicboxed, and then all stuff dies. I am clueless to how to stop it. Man everyone is asking the same question again and again (how to deal with mutas), yes +2 wweapons is really important but so are the armor upgrades (its really good vs both lings and mutas), you have to defend, expand, scout with hallucinations/a phoenix/obs, and maybe use a warp prism to harass (really careful tho mutas can go snipe it and that would be the end of your only form of harass), then attack with a huge deathball (archon/storm/void ray/stalker/(void rays/inmortal/mothership are also pretty good, collosus are good too but I never really use them in this situation). On October 31 2011 08:57 Corsica wrote:
2) Recently I've seen Protoss players dropping Twilight Citadel and Forge at the same time, if I remember before liek (up to may) I've never seen it before but now everyone is doing it why? because charge or blink will finish around the same time +1 weapon/armor does giving you a nice timing and then you can start +2 right away ^^. (plz someone elaborate more on this ; . wait... why are you suggesting voidray immortal mothership against muta ling? you will get outmacroed if you try to macro up a 200/200 deathball. This is a valid strategy and I have used similar ones myself but I doubt it works at the highest level of play. What you do is creating an army capable of trashing every zerg base along with the weak muta ling army and any remaxes that might follow such as infestor brood lord roach etc. Then you cannon up your bases like mad and go attack. The cannons will force the muta ling army to engage instead because they cannot afford a base race against that amount of cannons. But yeah, if you are making a deathball and expanding as well, you're pretty much going to die to harassment. Edit: Ooh and also about the forge and twilight council, if you drop the twilight council when the first upgrade is at about 50% they will finish roughly at the same time depending on how much you chronoboost. voidray immortal mothership will kill broodlord or roach remaxes... but it dies to ling muta... you cannot tech to voidray mothership and immortal against a ling mutaing zerg. Well yeah the army composition might not be optimal but the strategy works. I can't say I've actually tried it but...how on earth does that work? Immortals can't shoot air and don't do splash damage so both lings and mutas should eat them alive. Void Rays similarly aren't so good against lots of small, weak targets and can get picked off fairly effectively by mutas. The mothership takes ages to tech to and build and is expensive, and again isn't very effective against zerglings. About the only thing I could think of being useful on the mothership is using vortex to cut the size of the zerg army. But again you've just got no splash at all so you just can't take out the numbers effectively (keeping in mind how fast zerg can remax off the four or five bases he'll have by the time you have this composition). And all of the above is just assuming you can actually build up your force and engage in the first place rather than being harrassed to death by his growing muta ball. If you're able to get this kind of composition in the first place you must be facing the most passive zerg I've ever seen. And then I honestly can't see how on earth you can win an engagement against ling/muta with this composition. Surely the mutas will just wipe the mothership and clean up the void rays whilst the lings wipe out the immortals? Even if you kill all the lings with your immortals the mutas can finish off the immortals who can't fight back and then the zerg remaxes on a ton of zerglings and just a-moves your bases. More details and a replay would be nice as proof of concept, because I honestly flat out can't see how you can even make this even slightly feasible to suggest it as a strategy for people. If its correct then all credit to you, but I'm honestly not convinced by what you've described. Look, mothership/void ray and inmortals are for LATE GAME as a response to the fact the zerg is gonna transition into roach/brood lord/left over mutas from mid game (this composition might or might not include ultras, infestors and/or baneling bombs), if the zerg does not transition and gets maxed out with ling/muta(bling?) you just go kill him with your 4-5 base archon/blink stalker/HT ball and you win the game easily (EVEN if he decides to backstab you should have around 6-10 cannons + 1-2 HTs per base so you will win anyways). But you missed the step where you have to survive the protoss on 2 base, zerg on 3 base and harassing part. Which is probably the crux of the PvZ muta ling problem, right now.
leave your zealots and sentries at the wall, split your stalkers between your bases, make 2-3 cannons per base and tech blink, HTs and attack/armor. Also you want to expand when you feel safe enough.
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EPT
