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On October 30 2011 09:48 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:29 Spammish wrote:
Does anyone have any recent-ish pro replays of 6 gates vZ, I've been having some trouble with mutas and putting on early aggression in PvZ (probably related) and I'd like to study some pro 6 gates so I have something to trot out if I suspect the Zerg is going mutas as well as helping me with my "fear" of early aggression in PvZ. Sorry i don't have a replay but I can tell you that 6gate is made to kill tech or a fast third. This includes mutas so you shouldn't really have any problem. Maybe you make too many/few probes or the wrong units. If you want to learn early aggression I'd rather suggest you try to put pressure on with a few stalkers before zergling speed is done.
I know, in theory, how to stop mutas, but whenever I play it just never seems to work out, I think mostly due to my multitasking and lack of aggression. I killed a Zerg that I knew was going mutas with a 6 gate I made up on the fly today and that's the primary reason I want to study some pro replays, I play a lot of games where I know the Zerg is going mutas, but my improvised 6 gates either come out too late or too slow and I spend the rest of the game pinned in my base in fear of mutas moving in. I'm slowly getting better and I've learnt how effective cannons and 1 HT can be at dealing with the harass, but I would like to just be able to kill (or at least damage considerably) a Zerg of which I am sure is going mutas. If nothing else, that kind of early attack often gives me the momentum to go into the rest of the game.
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Can someone post/pm me guidelines for pvz that does not evolves from FFE?
im completely lost on this match up (REALLY lost D: ). Everything i try fails ( 8 gate, 3 gate expo, any fast expand build)
thanks!
EDIT : typo
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On October 30 2011 08:55 Utaheka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 08:33 Tekakan wrote:
Does anyone have pro replays they can recommend of someone opening 1 gate FE, going for Zealot/Archon with a quick Charge and taking your 3d base ASAP. Preferably before you take your 3 and 4 th gas. I know it's very specifik but I've heared it's a new P vs T build. I've tried it out, liked it but do need to perfect it. Hey man. I have a replay of myself doing this new "PvT" build if you are interested?^^ - It's basically charge and +1 armor timed with a 1gate expo. - Just write here if you're interested  - otherwise try and look at White-Ra stream, he does it ALOT^^ - Best of luck, Utaheka
Yeah sure your replay will do just fine and thanks for the tip. I'll keep an eye on his stream. 
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Anyone else notice the completely annoying metagame of Muta's in PvZ? At least on the NA server.
My games generally start with me FFE/3 gate expand (depends on map), into a general macro game. I'll scout they're going Mutas so i get a ton of blink stalker and eventually HT.
My problem is that It is so difficult to take a 3rd when they go Muta, as well as having to cannon up and being stuck in my base pretty much all damn game. Then, when i have finally macro'd up 200/200 off 3 base, every time i move out i'm counter attacked - which results in a base race or me retreating and generally losing.
I really don't want to start 6-7 gating every Zerg but i cannot stand playing like this against a Muta style. Any advice on how to deal with this?
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On October 30 2011 10:29 Noktix wrote:
Anyone else notice the completely annoying metagame of Muta's in PvZ? At least on the NA server.
My games generally start with me FFE/3 gate expand (depends on map), into a general macro game. I'll scout they're going Mutas so i get a ton of blink stalker and eventually HT.
My problem is that It is so difficult to take a 3rd when they go Muta, as well as having to cannon up and being stuck in my base pretty much all damn game. Then, when i have finally macro'd up 200/200 off 3 base, every time i move out i'm counter attacked - which results in a base race or me retreating and generally losing.
I really don't want to start 6-7 gating every Zerg but i cannot stand playing like this against a Muta style. Any advice on how to deal with this?
Bace racing is a pretty good idea in this situation. Not always, but they often wont have enough army to kill you if they got mutas, which are pretty terrible in straight up battles (especially if you have lots of blink stalkers / archons)
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How do you guys pressure the zerg on big map like tal'darim altar? The distance is large, the space is wide open -- I'm feeling very insecure every time I move out.
It seems like there is no reliable to stop the zerg from droning up on 2 bases. The only time I managed to kill them is when they take a too early third. Otherwise, I always feel roach ling is more than enough to hold my gateway pressure.
I try warp prism, but find that it can do little damage  unlike what I saw on pro stream, zerg on ladder just makes 2 spines every bases to hold off my zealot until their roaches come no damage at all
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On October 30 2011 14:44 Quochobao wrote:How do you guys pressure the zerg on big map like tal'darim altar? The distance is large, the space is wide open -- I'm feeling very insecure every time I move out. It seems like there is no reliable to stop the zerg from droning up on 2 bases. The only time I managed to kill them is when they take a too early third. Otherwise, I always feel roach ling is more than enough to hold my gateway pressure. I try warp prism, but find that it can do little damage unlike what I saw on pro stream, zerg on ladder just makes 2 spines every bases to hold off my zealot until their roaches come no damage at all
Earlier in the game, warp prism is fine since even if you force static defence, it's good. It also threatens zerg and makes them stop droning very hard. Later in the game, you should be able to warp in enough zealots to deal with spines and push forward to bait his army forward while your zealots do lots of damange.
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Recently I have had the most frustrating time beyond the early game in PvZ. I have the hardest time dealing with the roach hydra comp, it makes me want to break this keyboard over a babies face.
I'm come to the conclusion that heavy gateway in no way can overcome roach hydra. I also have not had really any luck with using collosus either. I feel like the only way I can beat it is by going something like Void Ray Immortal Collosus Stalker. Also in my past three games I've tried 3 gate expos into star tech in order to maintain control of the third. I've found that to be the most comfortable playstyle for me.
Anyway my real question, can anybody break down the fundamentals of playing against roach hydra. My worst match up has swung back to PvZ and I can't seem to wrap my head around the mid-late game. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can upload a few reps, but the games are essentially me not having any idea whats going on and always having a smaller army and getting crushed. (diamond level)
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On October 30 2011 17:23 Lemonayd wrote:
Recently I have had the most frustrating time beyond the early game in PvZ. I have the hardest time dealing with the roach hydra comp, it makes me want to break this keyboard over a babies face.
I'm come to the conclusion that heavy gateway in no way can overcome roach hydra. I also have not had really any luck with using collosus either. I feel like the only way I can beat it is by going something like Void Ray Immortal Collosus Stalker. Also in my past three games I've tried 3 gate expos into star tech in order to maintain control of the third. I've found that to be the most comfortable playstyle for me.
Anyway my real question, can anybody break down the fundamentals of playing against roach hydra. My worst match up has swung back to PvZ and I can't seem to wrap my head around the mid-late game. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can upload a few reps, but the games are essentially me not having any idea whats going on and always having a smaller army and getting crushed. (diamond level)
Colossus.
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On October 30 2011 10:29 Noktix wrote:
Anyone else notice the completely annoying metagame of Muta's in PvZ? At least on the NA server.
My games generally start with me FFE/3 gate expand (depends on map), into a general macro game. I'll scout they're going Mutas so i get a ton of blink stalker and eventually HT.
My problem is that It is so difficult to take a 3rd when they go Muta, as well as having to cannon up and being stuck in my base pretty much all damn game. Then, when i have finally macro'd up 200/200 off 3 base, every time i move out i'm counter attacked - which results in a base race or me retreating and generally losing.
I really don't want to start 6-7 gating every Zerg but i cannot stand playing like this against a Muta style. Any advice on how to deal with this?
Without any replays I can only guess but I find that one weakness of a lot of protoss builds is getting too many sentries. While sentries are great against standard roach or roach/ling play, they're not very good (or there are better options to spend your gas on) against anything else, especially spire. My favorite versatile PvZ opening is robo twilight with a low sentry count (like 1-3). Then you'll easily have enough gas to get blink stalkers and zealots so that you can take your 3rd against mutas.
During mid-late game just leave a high templar in each base to help ward off counter attacks. It won't defend you completely but storms do a ton of damage to muta clouds especially when they get really big so that they can be cleaned up by warped in stalkers and archons.
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On October 30 2011 10:00 Spammish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:48 Latedi wrote:On October 30 2011 09:29 Spammish wrote:
Does anyone have any recent-ish pro replays of 6 gates vZ, I've been having some trouble with mutas and putting on early aggression in PvZ (probably related) and I'd like to study some pro 6 gates so I have something to trot out if I suspect the Zerg is going mutas as well as helping me with my "fear" of early aggression in PvZ. Sorry i don't have a replay but I can tell you that 6gate is made to kill tech or a fast third. This includes mutas so you shouldn't really have any problem. Maybe you make too many/few probes or the wrong units. If you want to learn early aggression I'd rather suggest you try to put pressure on with a few stalkers before zergling speed is done. I know, in theory, how to stop mutas, but whenever I play it just never seems to work out, I think mostly due to my multitasking and lack of aggression. I killed a Zerg that I knew was going mutas with a 6 gate I made up on the fly today and that's the primary reason I want to study some pro replays, I play a lot of games where I know the Zerg is going mutas, but my improvised 6 gates either come out too late or too slow and I spend the rest of the game pinned in my base in fear of mutas moving in. I'm slowly getting better and I've learnt how effective cannons and 1 HT can be at dealing with the harass, but I would like to just be able to kill (or at least damage considerably) a Zerg of which I am sure is going mutas. If nothing else, that kind of early attack often gives me the momentum to go into the rest of the game.
Yeah okay. Just watch any tournament and you are bound to see someone 6gate haha. This build is used in PvT as well but it uses more sentry stalker than a mix of gateway units like in PvZ. You could also link a replay here if you'd like some help with your build. I know it's kind of hard to scout mutas in time to perform a perfect 6gate and it kind of depends on your opening. 1-3gate FE with hallucination is your best bet in my opinion but it doesn't work on some maps.
On October 30 2011 10:04 Aookami wrote:
Can someone post/pm me guidelines for pvz that does not evolves from FFE?
im completely lost on this match up (REALLY lost D: ). Everything i try fails ( 8 gate, 3 gate expo, any fast expand build)
thanks!
EDIT : typo
First you need to scout. Usually hallucination is pretty good to see if a roach ling all in is coming or not and it will let you know if the zerg is teching or going for a fast third. If he's teching you can either all in if his defenses are weak or you tech yourself and if he is expanding you can either pressure or take it out or you can just expand yourself. Don't be afraid if his expansions are faster than yours, that's normal. Normally when you tech on 2 bases you want to go for robo and colossus but it's not always you can do that. For example if zerg techs mutas you need to get a twilight council which naturally ends up with HTs. The standard army you are going for on three bases is sentries from the early game, a bunch of colossus and the rest is stalkers with blink. And lots of attack upgrades. Then you are basically in late game where the most important things are scouting for hive tech, taking/defending expansions and denying expansions.
On October 30 2011 11:45 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 10:29 Noktix wrote:
Anyone else notice the completely annoying metagame of Muta's in PvZ? At least on the NA server.
My games generally start with me FFE/3 gate expand (depends on map), into a general macro game. I'll scout they're going Mutas so i get a ton of blink stalker and eventually HT.
My problem is that It is so difficult to take a 3rd when they go Muta, as well as having to cannon up and being stuck in my base pretty much all damn game. Then, when i have finally macro'd up 200/200 off 3 base, every time i move out i'm counter attacked - which results in a base race or me retreating and generally losing.
I really don't want to start 6-7 gating every Zerg but i cannot stand playing like this against a Muta style. Any advice on how to deal with this? Bace racing is a pretty good idea in this situation. Not always, but they often wont have enough army to kill you if they got mutas, which are pretty terrible in straight up battles (especially if you have lots of blink stalkers / archons)
You can't baserace against muta ling because they are going to be in your base the moment you take a step outside. Also the muta player is going to have like 4-5 bases while you are on 2-3. If you want to this you pretty much have to make 15-20+ cannons.
On October 30 2011 14:51 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 14:44 Quochobao wrote:How do you guys pressure the zerg on big map like tal'darim altar? The distance is large, the space is wide open -- I'm feeling very insecure every time I move out. It seems like there is no reliable to stop the zerg from droning up on 2 bases. The only time I managed to kill them is when they take a too early third. Otherwise, I always feel roach ling is more than enough to hold my gateway pressure. I try warp prism, but find that it can do little damage unlike what I saw on pro stream, zerg on ladder just makes 2 spines every bases to hold off my zealot until their roaches come no damage at all Earlier in the game, warp prism is fine since even if you force static defence, it's good. It also threatens zerg and makes them stop droning very hard. Later in the game, you should be able to warp in enough zealots to deal with spines and push forward to bait his army forward while your zealots do lots of damange.
In my opinion the only use for warp prism harass in the early mid game is sentry drops. I don't see how warping in stuff could possibly kill more then 1-2 drones. The best pressure is air I think. The voidrays lets you deny any third base on this map because it's so big and zerg won't be able to get queens there in time. You can then proceed to kill any stray overlords, pick of any queens or drones not defended by spore crawlers and sometimes even kill off some tech. The phoenixes are fast and can scout what the zerg is doing so you will be able to react correctly. Most of the time this means they are forced to make hydras which some colossi will easily kill off. The only thing this build is weak to is some kind of 2base hydra supported by either drops or nydus.
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On October 30 2011 09:30 Darkness2k11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:06 BoBiNoU wrote:How do you deal with a 3rax/stim/ghost push ? I'm seriously clueless about that... if you spread your units they evaporate to the small stimmed force and as soon as you attack, emp kicks in http://replayfu.com/download/pgzDxcok this is not the best example as I alt-tab'd a lot in the early game Well first your BO was pretty badly executed and 1 gate robo expand is the kind of stuff you want to do against 1/1/1 or for really fast collosus, it isn't that great when used for other stuff. You didn't poke with your scouting probe or with a stalker to see whether or not he was getting an add on, does he have a bunker, how many marines does he have, does he have marauders, etc etc etc. to hold that timing push you need to get additional gates earlier, spread your sentries, forcefield and micro, or rush for collosus, use force fields, and again, micro, pull some probes if needed but not more than 5-6.
I did see a marauder so ... if I poke with a stalker and he has cc, it's a free unit lost.
I agree the 1gate robo expand is not the best but if I dont expand, he expands behind this push which is very unlikely to be crushed
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Can anyone link me a replay of a pro pvz: whereby the zerg goes for mutas and the protoss wins? I have seriously no clue how to deal with mutas.
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On October 30 2011 22:56 Anomandaris wrote:
Can anyone link me a replay of a pro pvz: whereby the zerg goes for mutas and the protoss wins? I have seriously no clue how to deal with mutas.
I'm having the same exact problem vs Zerg. If anyone finds a replay post it here or even if you wouldn't mind PM me because it would help alot. In case noone can find a replay here's a game that I played against a muta/roach/ling comp and if you could tell me what I did wrong here I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14816
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As a gold player who is just starting to learn the FFE, should I always be getting two cannons down just to be on the safe side? I've seen some higher level players go for a single cannon only, but I'm assuming it's because they made a read during scouting.
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Hey there guys, I'm a gold protoss that recently switched from zerg. And I'm having a lot of trouble with PvZ, oddly. I usually just FFE. But then I just can't do anything to the zerg, and when I do move out my army just gets completely crushed and I lose the game.
I can pick apart what I'm doing wrong, I'm just attacking too late. But what can I do to put on fast pressure out of a FFE? Or should I just switch openings?
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On October 31 2011 01:11 awwnuts07 wrote:
As a gold player who is just starting to learn the FFE, should I always be getting two cannons down just to be on the safe side? I've seen some higher level players go for a single cannon only, but I'm assuming it's because they made a read during scouting.
You are fine with one cannon if you see the zerg:
1. only get 100 gas
2. expand
3. make drones
If any of these statements are incorrect you need to think about getting more defenses, but you don't necessarily need to make only defenses depending on how hard he commits. For example mayeb he opted for one round of speedlings to see if he can do any damage and if that's the case all you need is a tight wall and a cannon. If he gathers more gas that is most likely banelings, roaches, a nydus or mayeb even some weird fast lair build (mutas or spines). If he makes many lings that's probably a speedling all in (make sure you wall off) or banelings. No expansion means he's gonna one base all in pretty hard. Note thoguh that an expansion can still all in with roach ling etc. So yeah... deciding on how many cannons you want is quite hard, it's all abuot scouting.
On October 31 2011 01:18 FrostyYeti wrote:
Hey there guys, I'm a gold protoss that recently switched from zerg. And I'm having a lot of trouble with PvZ, oddly. I usually just FFE. But then I just can't do anything to the zerg, and when I do move out my army just gets completely crushed and I lose the game.
I can pick apart what I'm doing wrong, I'm just attacking too late. But what can I do to put on fast pressure out of a FFE? Or should I just switch openings?
There are many ways of pressuring the zerg after a forge FE but none of them are really safe. You can tech DTs, go air, chronoboost 2-3 zealots from your first gate, 5-6 gate etc. If you don't want to forge FE you can still go for a 1-3gate FE.
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On October 31 2011 01:11 awwnuts07 wrote:
As a gold player who is just starting to learn the FFE, should I always be getting two cannons down just to be on the safe side? I've seen some higher level players go for a single cannon only, but I'm
assuming it's because they made a read during scouting.
Single cannon is fine. But you have to scout at multiple intervals. First with your initial probe: KEEP IT ALIVE. Scout for pool timing, gas timing and expo. Late or no gas means probably no roaches or banes. Speed might come, but it'll be late. Semi-early pool + gas usually means roaches or banes. Gas before pool is a speedling build. A lot of things are iffy ESPECIALLY at gold level, so just look out for no gas or late gas. After your gateway finishes, AFTER your forge and nexus, chrono out a zealot and scout with it. You should be able to see things before he gets speed. Then react or cannon accordingly.
On October 31 2011 01:18 FrostyYeti wrote:
Hey there guys, I'm a gold protoss that recently switched from zerg. And I'm having a lot of trouble with PvZ, oddly. I usually just FFE. But then I just can't do anything to the zerg, and when I do move out my army just gets completely crushed and I lose the game.
I can pick apart what I'm doing wrong, I'm just attacking too late. But what can I do to put on fast pressure out of a FFE? Or should I just switch openings?
I don't really like stargate after FFE. Why do you get crushed when you move out? What time do you move out? What're your upgrades, supply count, unit composition? Replay pleaseee, too many ifs.
You're not supposed to be able to put on fast pressure after a FFE. That's the point of the build, to get an economic advantage so you can get a nice timing attack with a strong army. But then again, it depends on scouting, etc. REPLAYS.
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I think the safest build post ffe involves getting a robo and a twilight that way you can scout and decide what tech you want to go for : if you see spire tech get blink and +1 armour with a bunch more gateways, if you see quick hydras or infestor go for collosus or ht with some gateways added in. If you see they have taken a quick third you can do a quick dt rush there are various options with this sort of opening with good scouting options from the early robo.
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EPT
