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Italy12248 Posts
On October 14 2011 21:55 monomo wrote:
I am wondering, why many (pro) players still 4gate in PvP after patch 1.4. I saw HuK and MC both do this (huk on antiga) on maps with tiny ramps that can now be forcefielded by any decent player. Since i never liked 4gating anyway, I have now been trying to do this build order/opening
9 pylon
13 gateway (scout now, 2x chrono)
15 assimilator
15 assimilator
16 pylon (super slight probe cut)
18 (not 17!) cybercore
when core finishes chrono 3 sentrys, do not chrono warpgate
around 19 1x crhono probes and pylon
from now on it becomes slightly fluid, i follow this up with 1 robo 2x immortal and another gate
expand at around 7:30, after that i usually transition into colossi going the route stalker/sentry/immortal -> colossus zealot stalker with charge and +1
i found it easy to hold any 4gate just because i can have 3 sentrys by the time it hits with WG almost finished and 2 gates worth of potential sentry production. If my opponent decides to expand behind the contain, i will most likely just destroy him with sentry/stalker immortal.
Anyway, does anything come to your mind, this build would just lose to or have a major disadvantage against?
I'm platinum btw.
Thanks in advance
If i see 2 fast gasses like that i will just 1gate expand while i fake a 4gate, and there's nothing you can do to punish me for it afaik, especially if you get all those sentries.
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On October 14 2011 21:57 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 21:55 monomo wrote:
I am wondering, why many (pro) players still 4gate in PvP after patch 1.4. I saw HuK and MC both do this (huk on antiga) on maps with tiny ramps that can now be forcefielded by any decent player. Since i never liked 4gating anyway, I have now been trying to do this build order/opening
9 pylon
13 gateway (scout now, 2x chrono)
15 assimilator
15 assimilator
16 pylon (super slight probe cut)
18 (not 17!) cybercore
when core finishes chrono 3 sentrys, do not chrono warpgate
around 19 1x crhono probes and pylon
from now on it becomes slightly fluid, i follow this up with 1 robo 2x immortal and another gate
expand at around 7:30, after that i usually transition into colossi going the route stalker/sentry/immortal -> colossus zealot stalker with charge and +1
i found it easy to hold any 4gate just because i can have 3 sentrys by the time it hits with WG almost finished and 2 gates worth of potential sentry production. If my opponent decides to expand behind the contain, i will most likely just destroy him with sentry/stalker immortal.
Anyway, does anything come to your mind, this build would just lose to or have a major disadvantage against?
I'm platinum btw.
Thanks in advance If i see 2 fast gasses like that i will just 1gate expand while i fake a 4gate, and there's nothing you can do to punish me for it afaik, especially if you get all those sentries.
Hmm yes that seems to make sense. Luckily my Diamond/Platinum opponents tend to just stay away from expanding in PvP. Thanks for your answer anyway!
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United States8477 Posts
On October 14 2011 22:38 monomo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 21:57 Teoita wrote:On October 14 2011 21:55 monomo wrote:
I am wondering, why many (pro) players still 4gate in PvP after patch 1.4. I saw HuK and MC both do this (huk on antiga) on maps with tiny ramps that can now be forcefielded by any decent player. Since i never liked 4gating anyway, I have now been trying to do this build order/opening
9 pylon
13 gateway (scout now, 2x chrono)
15 assimilator
15 assimilator
16 pylon (super slight probe cut)
18 (not 17!) cybercore
when core finishes chrono 3 sentrys, do not chrono warpgate
around 19 1x crhono probes and pylon
from now on it becomes slightly fluid, i follow this up with 1 robo 2x immortal and another gate
expand at around 7:30, after that i usually transition into colossi going the route stalker/sentry/immortal -> colossus zealot stalker with charge and +1
i found it easy to hold any 4gate just because i can have 3 sentrys by the time it hits with WG almost finished and 2 gates worth of potential sentry production. If my opponent decides to expand behind the contain, i will most likely just destroy him with sentry/stalker immortal.
Anyway, does anything come to your mind, this build would just lose to or have a major disadvantage against?
I'm platinum btw.
Thanks in advance If i see 2 fast gasses like that i will just 1gate expand while i fake a 4gate, and there's nothing you can do to punish me for it afaik, especially if you get all those sentries. Hmm yes that seems to make sense. Luckily my Diamond/Platinum opponents tend to just stay away from expanding in PvP. Thanks for your answer anyway!
Also, generally the fewer sentries you get, the more ahead you are in midgame PvP.
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So I don't know where to put this, so I figured that this would be the best place to post.
Before the new patch (are we at 1.4?), my win-rate in PvP would be around 80%. Being mid-diamond level, I would even feel very at ease taking out mid-master protosses. However, since the patch, my win-rate has been dipping below 50%. Now, my play style hasn't changed at all (generally I go for one-gate-robo and transition into one-based-collossus play if my opponent 4 gates or expands before me). I don't know whether this is due to the fact that 4 gate is getting less and less popular or whether it is because protoss has figured out a way to expand early and defend adequately. I really want to change my play style, but am afraid that mass collossus will still be unbeatable without collossus of my own. What do you guys think?
Poll: Are Collossi a must for late late game PvP's? (Late game = 18+ mins)Yes (12) 75% No (please explain why if you have time :) (4) 25% 16 total votes Your vote: Are Collossi a must for late late game PvP's? (Late game = 18+ mins) (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No (please explain why if you have time :)
Late game is hard to define in PvP. I guess you can consider late game as 3 operational bases?
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i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units !
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On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units !
I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat?
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On October 17 2011 12:35 RedFoxOne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units ! I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat?
Mass voids. I have seen Hero do this in late game PvP, very strong.
Phoenix is projectile based, and doesn't get bonus to void ray. Voidray is instant attack (like marine), so it has a big advantage in large numbers vs large numbers.
Also voidrays can kill your base, phoenix can't do anything even if they win the fight.
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I'm almost in the same boat: completely clueless as to what to do in PvP. I feel like if I go any route other than colossus, I will be under very heavy pressure to do something, anything before his colossus numbers get too big. And once you are behind colossus numbers, its difficult to catchup. I know I'm probably wrong to think in these terms, but I see most unit compositions that don't include colossus as basically dead ends. You better have a huge lead or be very good at base racing. But then again I'm just a noob and lose most of my PvPs these days.
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On October 17 2011 12:37 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:35 RedFoxOne wrote:On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units ! I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat? Mass voids. I have seen Hero do this in late game PvP, very strong. Phoenix is projectile based, and doesn't get bonus to void ray. Voidray is instant attack (like marine), so it has a big advantage in large numbers vs large numbers. Also voidrays can kill your base, phoenix can't do anything even if they win the fight.
But then with mass voidrays late game you are very vulnerable to storm.
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On October 17 2011 12:54 Contractor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:37 Trusty wrote:On October 17 2011 12:35 RedFoxOne wrote:On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units ! I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat? Mass voids. I have seen Hero do this in late game PvP, very strong. Phoenix is projectile based, and doesn't get bonus to void ray. Voidray is instant attack (like marine), so it has a big advantage in large numbers vs large numbers. Also voidrays can kill your base, phoenix can't do anything even if they win the fight. But then with mass voidrays late game you are very vulnerable to storm.
No one gets storm in PvP. Don't theorycraft.
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On October 17 2011 12:54 Contractor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:37 Trusty wrote:On October 17 2011 12:35 RedFoxOne wrote:On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units ! I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat? Mass voids. I have seen Hero do this in late game PvP, very strong. Phoenix is projectile based, and doesn't get bonus to void ray. Voidray is instant attack (like marine), so it has a big advantage in large numbers vs large numbers. Also voidrays can kill your base, phoenix can't do anything even if they win the fight. But then with mass voidrays late game you are very vulnerable to storm.
Yea but if he's going for storm he is prolly not going for mass collossus and you would've noticed it. If he's going for storm, he also probably has mass zealots. So in this case, hell yes I'm going for collossus.
On October 17 2011 12:44 eugalp wrote:
I'm almost in the same boat: completely clueless as to what to do in PvP. I feel like if I go any route other than colossus, I will be under very heavy pressure to do something, anything before his colossus numbers get too big. And once you are behind colossus numbers, its difficult to catchup. I know I'm probably wrong to think in these terms, but I see most unit compositions that don't include colossus as basically dead ends. You better have a huge lead or be very good at base racing. But then again I'm just a noob and lose most of my PvPs these days.
Collossus builds are very passif (very turtle-ly)e. I think that learning collossus builds is a very good way to start (if you're a noob). But once you get comfortable with it (like really comfortable and refined build), one should start finding ways to counter it and find new builds. I really like the idea of robo+blink with transition into archon zealot immortal because it's mobile and keeps enemy in his base while you pick him apart slowly. But it's very agressive and takes lots of refinement.
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So I'm clueless about PvZ too, and I have here a replay and my attempted analysis
I have been doing Time's 2 gate FE in PvZ, and it really does help bring an even mid-game with zerg. However I have difficulty dealing with zerg hatch first (I skip zealot and 1 gate FE as a response) then takes a really quick third (5:30ish).
I watched my replay and never understood at which time I could punish him. Could anyone please point out what I did wrong?
Replay is included here. Many thanks!
I would be glad to hear your comment on any non-strategy mistakes too.
Best,
http://drop.sc/44798
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Italy12248 Posts
On October 17 2011 12:06 RedFoxOne wrote:So I don't know where to put this, so I figured that this would be the best place to post. Before the new patch (are we at 1.4?), my win-rate in PvP would be around 80%. Being mid-diamond level, I would even feel very at ease taking out mid-master protosses. However, since the patch, my win-rate has been dipping below 50%. Now, my play style hasn't changed at all (generally I go for one-gate-robo and transition into one-based-collossus play if my opponent 4 gates or expands before me). I don't know whether this is due to the fact that 4 gate is getting less and less popular or whether it is because protoss has figured out a way to expand early and defend adequately. I really want to change my play style, but am afraid that mass collossus will still be unbeatable without collossus of my own. What do you guys think? Poll: Are Collossi a must for late late game PvP's? (Late game = 18+ mins)Yes (12) 75% No (please explain why if you have time  (4) 25% 16 total votes Your vote: Are Collossi a must for late late game PvP's? (Late game = 18+ mins) (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No (please explain why if you have time
Late game is hard to define in PvP. I guess you can consider late game as 3 operational bases?
With robo/blink into zealot archon immortal you can force the colossus player in a pretty bad spot: you will get both your nat and third faster. If he's turtling on 2 bases and not punishing your third, in my experience you can transition into 2-3 stargates worth of void rays to clean up his colossi, and then let your higher econ/gateway count kill whatever he has left on the ground.
Colossus is definitely a good option, but i don't think it's mandatory. I guess colossus vs zealot/archon is kinda like bio vs mech in tvt.
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Could someone who can access MLG vods pull Hero´s build order vs MC on Tal darim in group play? I really wantz it!
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Canada13431 Posts
On October 17 2011 13:03 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:54 Contractor wrote:On October 17 2011 12:37 Trusty wrote:On October 17 2011 12:35 RedFoxOne wrote:On October 17 2011 12:28 Fubnub wrote:
i think you can win games with mass gateway units when you have a huge eco lead (with blink and charge), but you really need colossi in late game, they are so strong against gateway units ! I agree. Apart from mass anti-air (which is not always cost-effective in PvP), there is very little (and by little I mean nothing) that can take down mass collossus. However, mass gates allows you to max out quicker and allows mobility. Can't I use that to keep my opponent in his base and prevent him from taking a third and maxing out? Or is a collossus deathball on two bases a viable strat? Mass voids. I have seen Hero do this in late game PvP, very strong. Phoenix is projectile based, and doesn't get bonus to void ray. Voidray is instant attack (like marine), so it has a big advantage in large numbers vs large numbers. Also voidrays can kill your base, phoenix can't do anything even if they win the fight. But then with mass voidrays late game you are very vulnerable to storm. No one gets storm in PvP. Don't theorycraft.
I've seen players on korean streams get storms before in PvP. But only when its zealot archon vs. Zealot archon. They get 2 or 3 storms and always keep them for that eventual engage storming the enemy zealots on approach to get a little bit of an advantage. But other than this specific situation it never happens.
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On October 17 2011 19:41 philippo wrote:Could someone who can access MLG vods pull Hero´s build order vs MC on Tal darim in group play? I really wantz it!
Just google "MLG Orlando replays". They usually release all the replays on their website one or two days after the end of the event.
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People can get storm in PvP late game. I've seen grubby do it in colo vs colo too. But especially if they are going voidrays, getting storm isn't that hard late game. You don't need that much to get it.
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Whenever it gets to lategame pvp (meaning no one attacked and we just made collosus all day) i tend to get a stargate, get maybe five or so phoenix, obs speed, and a mothership. They cant engage when you always snipe their obs and all your units are cloaked.
Credit to Plexa for that.
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Some times I try to go carrier late late late game PvP on like split map shakuras -
this happens after going chargelot archon into ? sometimes I go voids
I think voids would be a pretty good transition- it sounds stupid to do this against any robo opening that transitions into getting blink but you'd be surprised how well voids do in large numbers against blink stalkers on awkward terrain
but anyway aside from that tangent, I would go from voids (to somewhat deal with colo in larger numbers since you can't really touch him with zeal/archon/blinkstalkers) into carriers. However, colo/stalker beats stalker/carrier/mother ship so it's kind of a dead end.
Colo are definitely part of the END ALL pvp composition, with a chance of simply mass voids being it. I don't think ht's are.
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EPT
