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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On October 12 2011 18:38 Gattaca.usa wrote:
i cannot beat mass mutas. it seems absolutely IMPOSSIBLE. the only way I can beat a zerg that is doing this strat is if i can kill him before all his spine crawlers are up. other than that..... its over once the mutas just run around.
if i sit in my base, he will have a CRAP TON of bases and just make whatever he wants to OWN my army.
if i go attack, he rapes my base and expansions with mutas.
i feel so lost. it is so stupid. all zerg has to do is spam spine crawlers and mass muta = win v protoss. please somebody, help.
Mass blink stalkers and storm is your answer. Earlier on, you want to leave your stalkers in 2 groups, and put 1 group in each base. Try to secure your 3rd. When you have storm, leave a HT in each base. You want a composition that's mostly stalker/zealot/ht. Archons actually suck vs mutas contrary to popular belief (of course after you use storm you want to make archons. But generally the more storm the better, and don't keep all your HTs in 1 place).
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How do you guys deal with a 'doom drop' style terran? By doom drop I mean one who expands late, avoids any sort of fight on the map and just keeps most of his units in about five or more medivacs ready to drop into your base as soon as you move out. It's frustrating because I know I'm ahead of them but if I go to try and punish their relatively undefended natural they can just doom drop my main and force a base race in which they always have the advantage in being able to save their production buildings plus the mobility the medivacs give them. It seems to me like a base race is exactly what these kind of terran players are hoping for.
I feel like warping in a round of units off six gates does nothing against such big drops and I can't really split my army up or I won't be able to take down a PF getting mass-repaired or defend the drop efficiently. I know feedbacking the medivacs is possible but that's not going to outright kill them if they're not on full energy. I guess I could just try and take a third and keep macroing, but I feel it can be difficult to protect both the third and the main.
Is it ever worth getting some phoenixes just to try and stop the medivacs from camping out next to one's base or is there a better way to play against this style?
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On October 12 2011 19:09 tomatriedes wrote:
How do you guys deal with a 'doom drop' style terran? By doom drop I mean one who expands late, avoids any sort of fight on the map and just keeps most of his units in about five or more medivacs ready to drop into your base as soon as you move out. It's frustrating because I know I'm ahead of them but if I go to try and punish their relatively undefended natural they can just doom drop my main and force a base race in which they always have the advantage in being able to save their production buildings plus the mobility the medivacs give them. It seems to me like a base race is exactly what these kind of terran players are hoping for.
I feel like warping in a round of units off six gates does nothing against such big drops and I can't really split my army up or I won't be able to take down a PF getting mass-repaired or defend the drop efficiently. I know feedbacking the medivacs is possible but that's not going to outright kill them if they're not on full energy. I guess I could just try and take a third and keep macroing, but I feel it can be difficult to protect both the third and the main.
Is it ever worth getting some phoenixes just to try and stop the medivacs from camping out next to one's base or is there a better way to play against this style?
Don't feel like you need to "punish" them if you are ahead. You only need to punish someone if they are being greedy.
Feedback will work since, as you said, they will only drop you when you move out. Move out a little later when medivacs have more energy. They don't need to have full energy, just >150.
Last option is just to storm after they've unloaded. Watch White Ra vs MMA from IPL3.
EDIT: Are they making a PF at their natural?!
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On October 12 2011 19:09 tomatriedes wrote:
How do you guys deal with a 'doom drop' style terran? By doom drop I mean one who expands late, avoids any sort of fight on the map and just keeps most of his units in about five or more medivacs ready to drop into your base as soon as you move out. It's frustrating because I know I'm ahead of them but if I go to try and punish their relatively undefended natural they can just doom drop my main and force a base race in which they always have the advantage in being able to save their production buildings plus the mobility the medivacs give them. It seems to me like a base race is exactly what these kind of terran players are hoping for.
I feel like warping in a round of units off six gates does nothing against such big drops and I can't really split my army up or I won't be able to take down a PF getting mass-repaired or defend the drop efficiently. I know feedbacking the medivacs is possible but that's not going to outright kill them if they're not on full energy. I guess I could just try and take a third and keep macroing, but I feel it can be difficult to protect both the third and the main.
Is it ever worth getting some phoenixes just to try and stop the medivacs from camping out next to one's base or is there a better way to play against this style?
Feedback + a few stalkers.
You can't kill them outright with feedbacks, but if you have some stalkers to prevent drops (as you should) you should be able to deal with it nicely. Or HT plus a few cannons. If you have DTs, it's a good way to deal with drops too.
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On October 12 2011 19:06 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 18:38 Gattaca.usa wrote:
i cannot beat mass mutas. it seems absolutely IMPOSSIBLE. the only way I can beat a zerg that is doing this strat is if i can kill him before all his spine crawlers are up. other than that..... its over once the mutas just run around.
if i sit in my base, he will have a CRAP TON of bases and just make whatever he wants to OWN my army.
if i go attack, he rapes my base and expansions with mutas.
i feel so lost. it is so stupid. all zerg has to do is spam spine crawlers and mass muta = win v protoss. please somebody, help. Mass blink stalkers and storm is your answer. Earlier on, you want to leave your stalkers in 2 groups, and put 1 group in each base. Try to secure your 3rd. When you have storm, leave a HT in each base. You want a composition that's mostly stalker/zealot/ht. Archons actually suck vs mutas contrary to popular belief (of course after you use storm you want to make archons. But generally the more storm the better, and don't keep all your HTs in 1 place).
While it is true that archons are quite bad against magic boxed mutas I still think it's worth to have maybe one or two to really punish them when actually do stack. Sure you can storm but why not double the pain with both archons and storms.
On October 12 2011 22:44 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 19:09 tomatriedes wrote:
How do you guys deal with a 'doom drop' style terran? By doom drop I mean one who expands late, avoids any sort of fight on the map and just keeps most of his units in about five or more medivacs ready to drop into your base as soon as you move out. It's frustrating because I know I'm ahead of them but if I go to try and punish their relatively undefended natural they can just doom drop my main and force a base race in which they always have the advantage in being able to save their production buildings plus the mobility the medivacs give them. It seems to me like a base race is exactly what these kind of terran players are hoping for.
I feel like warping in a round of units off six gates does nothing against such big drops and I can't really split my army up or I won't be able to take down a PF getting mass-repaired or defend the drop efficiently. I know feedbacking the medivacs is possible but that's not going to outright kill them if they're not on full energy. I guess I could just try and take a third and keep macroing, but I feel it can be difficult to protect both the third and the main.
Is it ever worth getting some phoenixes just to try and stop the medivacs from camping out next to one's base or is there a better way to play against this style? Don't feel like you need to "punish" them if you are ahead. You only need to punish someone if they are being greedy. Feedback will work since, as you said, they will only drop you when you move out. Move out a little later when medivacs have more energy. They don't need to have full energy, just >150. Last option is just to storm after they've unloaded. Watch White Ra vs MMA from IPL3. EDIT: Are they making a PF at their natural?!
If your HT has a lot of energy you don't need a medivac with >150 energy actually. Just feedback and then storming it should be enough most of the time. And yeah if the terran is really just haing medivacs floating around... get a phoenix or two.
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I actually won a game recently, because my opponent didn't magic box his muta army..against perhaps 4 archons (we both had around a 200/200 army). And you have to remember that when your opponent goes mutaling, archons do extremely well against a ling surround.
Question: Best response to 3rax +1 timing, when 1gate FE'ing and assuming the choke at your natural is really wide? (edit: and what is the most obvious scouting intel seperating 2rax pressure from 3rax pressure?)
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:43 Xenocide_EU wrote:
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I actually won a game recently, because my opponent didn't magic box his muta army..against perhaps 4 archons (we both had around a 200/200 army). And you have to remember that when your opponent goes mutaling, archons do extremely well against a ling surround.
Question: Best response to 3rax +1 timing, when 1gate FE'ing and assuming the choke at your natural is really wide? (edit: and what is the most obvious scouting intel seperating 2rax pressure from 3rax pressure?)
Mostly i think it's the unit count when/if you poke up his ramp with 3gates worth of units. I do tend to do that off both 1gate and 3gate expand.
If i feel he has too many units (watch a replay of 2rax expo vs 3rax allin to know the difference), i add 1-2 gateways, stop teching up and prepare to hold his push. If he tries to expand too late, i just 6gate him.
The big thing about defending 3rax is just having solid forcefields, more so than having a good build. If things look really really iffy pull probes and try to get a surround: you are on 2 bases with 2 nexi, he only has one cc.
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how do you seriously beat the 111?
I usually open 2 gas 1 gate FE, fallowed by 2 more gates and a robo but even though i know a 111 is coming i don't know how i'm really supposed to stop it.
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United States8476 Posts
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:23 UmbeXCII wrote:
how do you seriously beat the 111?
I usually open 2 gas 1 gate FE, fallowed by 2 more gates and a robo but even though i know a 111 is coming i don't know how i'm really supposed to stop it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
First result from searching "defending 1-1-1". The search function is your friend 
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On October 13 2011 01:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:23 UmbeXCII wrote:
how do you seriously beat the 111?
I usually open 2 gas 1 gate FE, fallowed by 2 more gates and a robo but even though i know a 111 is coming i don't know how i'm really supposed to stop it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379First result from searching "defending 1-1-1". The search function is your friend
I searched "how to beat 111" and "111"...didn't think about "1-1-1" lol
Thank you, hope it will help
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Bit of a strange question this, more of requesting an opinion:
I was playing a game last night and my opponent was Zerg. I'd put down my pylon and my semi-wall gateway was building at the top of my main by the time I scouted him (was planning a three-gate expand). I found his position right before I built a core.
So I noticed that in his base it was a bit weird. His pool was only partly done and I already had a gateway literally finished. And he was simultaneously getting a hatchery, not early enough to be fast enough so that I couldn't do any aggression and not slow enough for him to get some lings out to help protect it.
As a result, quick think over what I could do to exploit this opening and immediately hit on cannon rushing his expansion. So I whacked a forge down instead of cyber core and kept all my probes on minerals. I set up a pylon outside of his vision and by the time his hatch was finished I had one defensive cannon up already and two more offensive ones almost done.
Skip to the end of the game ten-fifteen game minutes later where I've one-base blink-stalkered him to death after he's tried to take an expansion with nydus worm following his moving into roaches. And he quits out with a comment along the lines of "cannon rush...seriously...?"
Now for the question: it might seem odd but I feel kinda bad about this. I'm not one for cheese play and its not like I was deliberately going for it, he just left me a huge window and it seemed an optimal response. So...should I be looking to cut out this kinda play in future because it'll harm me in the long run or was it just the right decision and his fault for not protecting his natural?
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:47 Lightspeaker wrote:
Bit of a strange question this, more of requesting an opinion:
I was playing a game last night and my opponent was Zerg. I'd put down my pylon and my semi-wall gateway was building at the top of my main by the time I scouted him (was planning a three-gate expand). I found his position right before I built a core.
So I noticed that in his base it was a bit weird. His pool was only partly done and I already had a gateway literally finished. And he was simultaneously getting a hatchery, not early enough to be fast enough so that I couldn't do any aggression and not slow enough for him to get some lings out to help protect it.
As a result, quick think over what I could do to exploit this opening and immediately hit on cannon rushing his expansion. So I whacked a forge down instead of cyber core and kept all my probes on minerals. I set up a pylon outside of his vision and by the time his hatch was finished I had one defensive cannon up already and two more offensive ones almost done.
Skip to the end of the game ten-fifteen game minutes later where I've one-base blink-stalkered him to death after he's tried to take an expansion with nydus worm following his moving into roaches. And he quits out with a comment along the lines of "cannon rush...seriously...?"
Now for the question: it might seem odd but I feel kinda bad about this. I'm not one for cheese play and its not like I was deliberately going for it, he just left me a huge window and it seemed an optimal response. So...should I be looking to cut out this kinda play in future because it'll harm me in the long run or was it just the right decision and his fault for not protecting his natural?
It sounds like your opponent just went hatch first, in which case cannon rushing is an option. Usually it's done off forge fe, no idea if it's actually viable as a reaction as i never do it.
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On October 13 2011 01:34 UmbeXCII wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:32 Teoita wrote:On October 13 2011 01:23 UmbeXCII wrote:
how do you seriously beat the 111?
I usually open 2 gas 1 gate FE, fallowed by 2 more gates and a robo but even though i know a 111 is coming i don't know how i'm really supposed to stop it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379First result from searching "defending 1-1-1". The search function is your friend I searched "how to beat 111" and "111"...didn't think about "1-1-1" lol Thank you, hope it will help
Let me know if you have any questions ^^
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On October 13 2011 01:47 Lightspeaker wrote:
Bit of a strange question this, more of requesting an opinion:
I was playing a game last night and my opponent was Zerg. I'd put down my pylon and my semi-wall gateway was building at the top of my main by the time I scouted him (was planning a three-gate expand). I found his position right before I built a core.
So I noticed that in his base it was a bit weird. His pool was only partly done and I already had a gateway literally finished. And he was simultaneously getting a hatchery, not early enough to be fast enough so that I couldn't do any aggression and not slow enough for him to get some lings out to help protect it.
As a result, quick think over what I could do to exploit this opening and immediately hit on cannon rushing his expansion. So I whacked a forge down instead of cyber core and kept all my probes on minerals. I set up a pylon outside of his vision and by the time his hatch was finished I had one defensive cannon up already and two more offensive ones almost done.
Skip to the end of the game ten-fifteen game minutes later where I've one-base blink-stalkered him to death after he's tried to take an expansion with nydus worm following his moving into roaches. And he quits out with a comment along the lines of "cannon rush...seriously...?"
Now for the question: it might seem odd but I feel kinda bad about this. I'm not one for cheese play and its not like I was deliberately going for it, he just left me a huge window and it seemed an optimal response. So...should I be looking to cut out this kinda play in future because it'll harm me in the long run or was it just the right decision and his fault for not protecting his natural?
No thats not cheese, its punishing a Zerg for going hatch first. However, going forge after gateway is kinda silly. I would've just gotten a faster nexus (perhaps a 1 gate expand) and done a gateway timing. Cannon rushing the nat is usually done off of a FFE so the forge is already in the tech path you're going.
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On October 13 2011 01:47 Lightspeaker wrote:
Bit of a strange question this, more of requesting an opinion:
I was playing a game last night and my opponent was Zerg. I'd put down my pylon and my semi-wall gateway was building at the top of my main by the time I scouted him (was planning a three-gate expand). I found his position right before I built a core.
So I noticed that in his base it was a bit weird. His pool was only partly done and I already had a gateway literally finished. And he was simultaneously getting a hatchery, not early enough to be fast enough so that I couldn't do any aggression and not slow enough for him to get some lings out to help protect it.
As a result, quick think over what I could do to exploit this opening and immediately hit on cannon rushing his expansion. So I whacked a forge down instead of cyber core and kept all my probes on minerals. I set up a pylon outside of his vision and by the time his hatch was finished I had one defensive cannon up already and two more offensive ones almost done.
Skip to the end of the game ten-fifteen game minutes later where I've one-base blink-stalkered him to death after he's tried to take an expansion with nydus worm following his moving into roaches. And he quits out with a comment along the lines of "cannon rush...seriously...?"
Now for the question: it might seem odd but I feel kinda bad about this. I'm not one for cheese play and its not like I was deliberately going for it, he just left me a huge window and it seemed an optimal response. So...should I be looking to cut out this kinda play in future because it'll harm me in the long run or was it just the right decision and his fault for not protecting his natural?
Though it is a pretty poor response, it can work on bad players. A better response is one that doesn't rely on the opponent not stopping you, a response that is guaranteed each game. For instance cancelling your Assimilator and immediately placing a Nexus - I've been doing this a whole lot lately to great success.
On October 12 2011 18:38 Gattaca.usa wrote:
i cannot beat mass mutas. it seems absolutely IMPOSSIBLE. the only way I can beat a zerg that is doing this strat is if i can kill him before all his spine crawlers are up. other than that..... its over once the mutas just run around.
if i sit in my base, he will have a CRAP TON of bases and just make whatever he wants to OWN my army.
if i go attack, he rapes my base and expansions with mutas.
i feel so lost. it is so stupid. all zerg has to do is spam spine crawlers and mass muta = win v protoss. please somebody, help.
Well you shouldn't have any problem if you play like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274243
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Recently i've come up against a terran strat that has beat me both times. i dont know if the build is new but it's the first time ive encountered it (im only silver).
basically i 3gate pressure expo against teran and usually get zealot-stalker-sentray out of my gateway in that order. (i like to have the stalker to poke up the ramp or micro eairly marines. however just as my stalker has reached about 3/4 of the way i get hit by 2 mauraders and a marine with concussive shells. the first time i lost to that second time i held the first (barely) only for 4 more maurders to be rallied straight in and then died to that. i asked a mate what to do and he said pull probes, but i dont want to be at that disadvantage.
i was thinking would it be as simple to scout the (1gas 1racks+techlab) and get sentary instead of stalker? but lets assume it's the last base i scout and he's walled in so i cant see. any tips on how to defend this?
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On October 13 2011 06:58 proerthantoss wrote:
Recently i've come up against a terran strat that has beat me both times. i dont know if the build is new but it's the first time ive encountered it (im only silver).
basically i 3gate pressure expo against teran and usually get zealot-stalker-sentray out of my gateway in that order. (i like to have the stalker to poke up the ramp or micro eairly marines. however just as my stalker has reached about 3/4 of the way i get hit by 2 mauraders and a marine with concussive shells. the first time i lost to that second time i held the first (barely) only for 4 more maurders to be rallied straight in and then died to that. i asked a mate what to do and he said pull probes, but i dont want to be at that disadvantage.
i was thinking would it be as simple to scout the (1gas 1racks+techlab) and get sentary instead of stalker? but lets assume it's the last base i scout and he's walled in so i cant see. any tips on how to defend this?
Aha that's the concussive shell rush. In my opinion the easiest way of dealing with this is by getting zealot stalker stalker out of the first gateway by default. Of course it's easier to defend if it's scouted as well if you feel like you need to chronoboost units. Zealot stalker sentry should aslo be good to get defensively and you should be able to forcefield behind the terran units when he walks up your ramp to let the zealot get a lot of hits. What you don't want to do is losing your units to the concussive shell for no reason at all. The best way to do this is first scouting with your probe, and don't leave your base until you have enough units to deal with a small amount of marine marauder. If your probe sees nothing you can send the first zealot and then rally the stalker to it near the terran's ramp. Then you go under the ramp to see what hits you, marine counts, marauders and bunkers can give you a hint. If you see nothing you go up the ramp to check what's there. The reason you do all this is so that you can scout for marauders while not losing any units in vain.
TL DR Scout and chronoboost units if necessary. With zealot stalker stalker you should be able to win a direct confrontation and with zealot stalker sentry you should be able to win if you forcefield your ramp properly. In any case, don't lose units.
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On October 13 2011 06:58 proerthantoss wrote:
Recently i've come up against a terran strat that has beat me both times. i dont know if the build is new but it's the first time ive encountered it (im only silver).
basically i 3gate pressure expo against teran and usually get zealot-stalker-sentray out of my gateway in that order. (i like to have the stalker to poke up the ramp or micro eairly marines. however just as my stalker has reached about 3/4 of the way i get hit by 2 mauraders and a marine with concussive shells. the first time i lost to that second time i held the first (barely) only for 4 more maurders to be rallied straight in and then died to that. i asked a mate what to do and he said pull probes, but i dont want to be at that disadvantage.
i was thinking would it be as simple to scout the (1gas 1racks+techlab) and get sentry instead of stalker? but lets assume it's the last base i scout and he's walled in so i cant see. any tips on how to defend this?
Scouting with your first zealot along with your first stalker goes a long way to keeping your stalker alive. Try to not lose your first scouting probe and you can use it to scout his tech a bit later. Assuming you scout him last it's possible to figure out some info by simply scouting the front or placing your probe in the path of his push. If you see a marauder and tech lab researching you can bet it's either a stim push or concussive shell push coming. Either way you don't want to be getting too aggressive. Send a probe or stalker to a xel'naga or somewhere between your base and his to know when the push is coming and prepare.
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On October 13 2011 02:05 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:34 UmbeXCII wrote:On October 13 2011 01:32 Teoita wrote:On October 13 2011 01:23 UmbeXCII wrote:
how do you seriously beat the 111?
I usually open 2 gas 1 gate FE, fallowed by 2 more gates and a robo but even though i know a 111 is coming i don't know how i'm really supposed to stop it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379First result from searching "defending 1-1-1". The search function is your friend I searched "how to beat 111" and "111"...didn't think about "1-1-1" lol Thank you, hope it will help Let me know if you have any questions ^^
Sigh... I actually have questions about the 1-1-1. So am I supposed to keep 2 obs at home just to defend against banshee harass? It seems inevitable, but that's so... UNFAIR to build 2 obs and yet cannot afford to keep one at his base. What if he changes plan or something? >.<
I just want to confirm...
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EPT
