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On September 06 2011 13:41 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I just played a PvP on Antiga Shipyard and got beat by a proxy 2 gate. I scouted after my gate on 12 and got to his base last. He built the gates in the middle of the map so I could have had a chance if I scouted there but it seems like there are usually decent places to hide gates on bigger maps. I don't want to have my scouting probe go everywhere before I head into his base.
I feel like it's kind of a game of chance where if I scout him early I will most likely win the game but if I scout last I will most likely lose.
I will probably start scouting the middle where the tower is now as I can't think of a way to hold it off if I scout it too late. Has anyone else found a better way to deal with this?
If you scout it early put up a 2nd gate, cut gas and chrono zeals. You may need to pull a few probes but you should win with the better econ. If you scout it last you need a forge ASAP and get cannons down in your mineral line.
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Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~
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On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~
okay, this is a touchy concept.
On scouting it. This is very tough to actually scout, the most telling signs that i know are double gas or lots of marines (which could also just be banshee play) and no marauders. Those are the only signs you can get before having to commit to it being 1/1/1 or 2 rax. Later signs that you can get to confirm is the tech lab starport and factory.
Dealing with the 1-1-1 is the true touchy subject, as there is a lot of debate about it's counter. One supposed counter is the one base collosi rush, but a well performed 1-1-1 will seige up outside of collosi range and contain the protoss, indirectly killing him as 1 base terran > 1 base protoss when it comes to tech heavy builds. Another supposed counter is the 3 gate stargate or a variation of that. It uses pheonix to shut down the banshee and lift the tanks, and your gateway force can easily overrun the marines before the tanks are dropped. This build is shutdown if terran got cloak, as you have no detection. My personal counter is 1 gate expo or nexus first. Designed to get you on 5 gate robo or allow charge tech before the 1/1/1 hits. The weakness to this one is if they scout it, a marine/scv all in can end the game right there.
Ironically, the best counter is a delayed 4 gate or very aggressive and well done 3 gate pressure that hits before 6:30 or so. If you can take out the marine force, which consitutes the DPS of the 1/1/1 build, then it is much easier to defend against it. The 3 gate allows for tech or expo, each of which has it's downfall in that if you tech terran may recover but if you expand a follow up delayed 1/1/1 with cloak can kill you. The 4 gate can be stronger and end the game completely and will assuredly delay the 1/1/1 but prevents the teching/expo that can give you the advantage that delaying the 1/1/1 build gave you.
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On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~
You can hold 2 rax with 1 gate expand into 2 more gates if you know it is coming on maps with long rushdistance. After patch probably mid rush distance.
2 facts
#1 Warptech and gateway 2,3 should finish at the same time.
#2 The more things you build b4 gateway 2,3 the less chrono you need on warptech.
my opinion
So my tips is to not build zealot firth, 2:nd gas, 2:nd stalker and 3:d pylon b4 gate 2,3. Chrono warptech about 3-4 times and warp in 3 stalkers. Making it totally 5 stalkers (2 are made from firth gateway) which easly wins vs the 1 marouder + marines poke.
On taldarim cross my stalkers finish exact when the push come to the natural. 10 s less rush-distance and you are still fine, he can hit the nexus some seconds or he can walk into the main and arrives in the main when you can defend it and he don't have time to get up bunkers.
If no push come it is better to warp in 2 zealot sentry and add a gate. And continue to warp zealot sentry and maybe a few stalkers until you are safe vs stimm pushes. Splitting the sentries makes you safe vs ghost timings to.
The problem i have is when the terran don't show 2 rax, denies scouting with 1 marine (with good kiting). This is quite an adaption that is needed and late robo makes you bad vs 1-1-1.
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On September 08 2011 05:35 darklight54321 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~ okay, this is a touchy concept. On scouting it. This is very tough to actually scout, the most telling signs that i know are double gas or lots of marines (which could also just be banshee play) and no marauders. Those are the only signs you can get before having to commit to it being 1/1/1 or 2 rax. Later signs that you can get to confirm is the tech lab starport and factory. Dealing with the 1-1-1 is the true touchy subject, as there is a lot of debate about it's counter. One supposed counter is the one base collosi rush, but a well performed 1-1-1 will seige up outside of collosi range and contain the protoss, indirectly killing him as 1 base terran > 1 base protoss when it comes to tech heavy builds. Another supposed counter is the 3 gate stargate or a variation of that. It uses pheonix to shut down the banshee and lift the tanks, and your gateway force can easily overrun the marines before the tanks are dropped. This build is shutdown if terran got cloak, as you have no detection. My personal counter is 1 gate expo or nexus first. Designed to get you on 5 gate robo or allow charge tech before the 1/1/1 hits. The weakness to this one is if they scout it, a marine/scv all in can end the game right there. Ironically, the best counter is a delayed 4 gate or very aggressive and well done 3 gate pressure that hits before 6:30 or so. If you can take out the marine force, which consitutes the DPS of the 1/1/1 build, then it is much easier to defend against it. The 3 gate allows for tech or expo, each of which has it's downfall in that if you tech terran may recover but if you expand a follow up delayed 1/1/1 with cloak can kill you. The 4 gate can be stronger and end the game completely and will assuredly delay the 1/1/1 but prevents the teching/expo that can give you the advantage that delaying the 1/1/1 build gave you.
Yeah I know how to defend the 1-1-1 don't worry  But I have problems knowing since both builds start with 1 gas and reactor barracks. The 1-1-1 builds I have faced will kill my probe before taking the second gas so there is no way to tell that way either. The bunker is the largest indicator imo but it's a bit late.
On September 08 2011 06:27 GrassEater wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~ You can hold 2 rax with 1 gate expand into 2 more gates if you know it is coming on maps with long rushdistance. After patch probably mid rush distance. 2 facts #1 Warptech and gateway 2,3 should finish at the same time. #2 The more things you build b4 gateway 2,3 the less chrono you need on warptech. my opinion So my tips is to not build zealot firth, 2:nd gas, 2:nd stalker and 3:d pylon b4 gate 2,3. Chrono warptech about 3-4 times and warp in 3 stalkers. Making it totally 5 stalkers (2 are made from firth gateway) which easly wins vs the 1 marouder + marines poke. On taldarim cross my stalkers finish exact when the push come to the natural. 10 s less rush-distance and you are still fine, he can hit the nexus some seconds or he can walk into the main and arrives in the main when you can defend it and he don't have time to get up bunkers. If no push come it is better to warp in 2 zealot sentry and add a gate. And continue to warp zealot sentry and maybe a few stalkers until you are safe vs stimm pushes. Splitting the sentries makes you safe vs ghost timings to. The problem i have is when the terran don't show 2 rax, denies scouting with 1 marine (with good kiting). This is quite an adaption that is needed and late robo makes you bad vs 1-1-1.
Yes I'm having the same problem most of the time. I should try to rush for the warpgates though it sounds really useful, won't hurt to have only a little less of an economic advantage. But is it really needed for the concussive shell rush they usually poke with? I think stalker stalker sentry should be able to deal with them fine, but it might be good to have more warp ins for 2rax either way.
By the way here's another pretty useful timing I found. If you hide the probe in the terran natural you can try to suicide it up the ramp at around 4:10. At this time he should still have only one marine if he is going for reactor at least, which let's you scout his base if he did not wall or was not watching his ramp. The placement of the first barracks can also be of some help.
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On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~
If the Terran is smart and walls and denies you vision then there is no way of telling. If its a 2 rax reactor first and he pulls SCVs, and you 1 gate expand to counter the 1/1/1 you'll likely die to a build order loss. If its a 2 rax tech lab first, you'll be ahead.
The only way to scout it is the late reactor, and a bunker, thats a 1/1/1 or some tech rush, like a banshee.
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On September 08 2011 08:41 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~ If the Terran is smart and walls and denies you vision then there is no way of telling. If its a 2 rax reactor first and he pulls SCVs, and you 1 gate expand to counter the 1/1/1 you'll likely die to a build order loss. If its a 2 rax tech lab first, you'll be ahead. The only way to scout it is the late reactor, and a bunker, thats a 1/1/1 or some tech rush, like a banshee.
Lol if he goes 2 rax and walls, just void ray rush him. You can actually scout the ramp much more easily if he has a wall because the marine can barely hit the probe.
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On September 08 2011 08:45 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 08:41 xlava wrote:On September 08 2011 04:58 Latedi wrote:
Ok so how do I see the difference between 1-1-1 and 2rax? Should I just cancel the nexus and accept being behind? I had another question as well but I can't remember right now~ If the Terran is smart and walls and denies you vision then there is no way of telling. If its a 2 rax reactor first and he pulls SCVs, and you 1 gate expand to counter the 1/1/1 you'll likely die to a build order loss. If its a 2 rax tech lab first, you'll be ahead. The only way to scout it is the late reactor, and a bunker, thats a 1/1/1 or some tech rush, like a banshee. Lol if he goes 2 rax and walls, just void ray rush him. You can actually scout the ramp much more easily if he has a wall because the marine can barely hit the probe.
The wall would consist of 2 supply depots and a bunker, making both a void ray rush and scouting both impossible.
However, a void ray bust could work if he doesn't pull his scvs in time.
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If the terran is patrolling his marine below the ramp, the probe will most likely die before it gets up the ramp (which will be even more relevant after 1.4). Poking with the first stalker is risky because he may already have concussive shell, and losing that stalker hurts. Scouting with the first zealot is probably the most reliable. Thoughts?
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On September 05 2011 02:43 Latedi wrote:For the PvP, I think a gate robo gate build could be good. They are basically created to be anti 4gate builds and with an early robo pumping immortals I think the number of 2 or 3 could be reached farily quickly assuming that none die. Here's a build I used to go with almost every game for a long time http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 but it's outdated now. But even so the order of when to get things should be enough to use it correctly. I am not sure about the point of getting many immortals as fast as possible though, I think going blink stalker immortal or teching colossus would be a wiser decision.
I think its certainly possible to 1 gate robo into 2 more gates, but its really hard to stop your opponent from expanding in response if he sees it. The advantage of a 3 gate build is that at any point you can say 'fuck this', throw down a 4th gate, and go on the offensive - your opponent has to keep the threat in mind.
I don't have any recent pro replays of it, but 4kmonk's robo-twilight thread links a VOD of Huk vs MC where MC did just what I described above. Would love more input.
Edit: Link to the game I referenced: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65750
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Against a Terran who takes his natural fast and put 2+ bunkers to defend it, is it better to take my own natural and try to beat him in the late game? or go for a one base push to punish the terran for taking a fast natural and relying on a few units and bunkers for defense?
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I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production?
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On September 08 2011 13:20 sermokala wrote:
I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production?
Yeah. Just be sure to have a Stalker for the Reaper.
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PvZ - Help with building placement vs zerg (mid diamond)....
I always create a wall at my ramp, 2 gates or gate/cyber...However, half of my recently losses vs zerg are from 6 pools that I haven't scouted in time and just destroy my probes. Now I heard of people creating a pylon and gateway next to the nexus to make it easier to fend of early pools, how does this work?
I am still working different builds, and want to try 2gate/forge expand with early zealot pressure (not a fan of ffe because i'm blind as a bat)...
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On September 08 2011 14:15 Prakas wrote:
PvZ - Help with building placement vs zerg (mid diamond)....
I always create a wall at my ramp, 2 gates or gate/cyber...However, half of my recently losses vs zerg are from 6 pools that I haven't scouted in time and just destroy my probes. Now I heard of people creating a pylon and gateway next to the nexus to make it easier to fend of early pools, how does this work?
I am still working different builds, and want to try 2gate/forge expand with early zealot pressure (not a fan of ffe because i'm blind as a bat)...
It will be a lot easier to defend the probes and buildings at the same time. It will also be easier to micro imo as you can use the minerals to stack probes. I don't find it as funny defending against 9 or 10pools with this building placement though.
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PvT - What is the compositon I want against 2:1:1 with ghosts/marauder/marine plus medivac? I have recently tried to have around 6-7 colossus when facing this composition along with chargelots/archons and some stalkers. Is there any more valid composition? Feels like ghost emp takes away everything. And for HT with feedback to be efficent should I 1 HT for each ghost? I was thinking otherwise when his push hits to perhaps switch to stargate comp mostly like voidray/carrier with chargelot and maybe HT/archon. Thoughts?
PvZ - What is really the composition you want against mass infestor + broodlord or whatever unit he is going? Feels like mass fungal/neutrals own me everytime, colossus/immortal/voidray/archon get mass neutral paralised and the rest fungaled until death with infested terrans. Should I get one HT per how many infestors? Thanks!
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I know the OP said to scan the thread but with the 48 pages I figured I would ask my Qs anyway
1. At what time/food should you have a ground army of sufficient size to push out for each match up?
Should you even make the 1st push or are you better off turtling?
cheers
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On September 08 2011 23:25 WutTheDerp wrote:
I know the OP said to scan the thread but with the 48 pages I figured I would ask my Qs anyway
1. At what time/food should you have a ground army of sufficient size to push out for each match up?
Should you even make the 1st push or are you better off turtling?
cheers
Go to my profile and click on the How to Improve link. Search the document for the part on not knowing when to attack. Read that!
On September 08 2011 21:29 eYeball wrote:
PvT - What is the compositon I want against 2:1:1 with ghosts/marauder/marine plus medivac? I have recently tried to have around 6-7 colossus when facing this composition along with chargelots/archons and some stalkers. Is there any more valid composition? Feels like ghost emp takes away everything. And for HT with feedback to be efficent should I 1 HT for each ghost? I was thinking otherwise when his push hits to perhaps switch to stargate comp mostly like voidray/carrier with chargelot and maybe HT/archon. Thoughts?
PvZ - What is really the composition you want against mass infestor + broodlord or whatever unit he is going? Feels like mass fungal/neutrals own me everytime, colossus/immortal/voidray/archon get mass neutral paralised and the rest fungaled until death with infested terrans. Should I get one HT per how many infestors? Thanks!
Colo/Chargelot, lots of gateways and double upgrades. PvT. That's just too many Ghosts.
PvZ HT/Immortal/Voidray. Voidrays for the BL obviously, Storm for everything else, FB for Infestors that stray close, and Immortals to protect against any remax army or tech switch, or already existing roach/ultra.
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Hi all, I just lost this game and need so advice and love rightnow, please help 
im high diamond, this is a PvT the guy opens marine helions and does a drop in my main then follows it up with several waves of 111 then takes the gold and goes for a MMM+tanks. i finally lost the game.
please help im really frustrated.
http://www.2shared.com/file/yZF8bAjG/XelNaga_Caverns.html
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On September 08 2011 23:57 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 23:25 WutTheDerp wrote:
I know the OP said to scan the thread but with the 48 pages I figured I would ask my Qs anyway
1. At what time/food should you have a ground army of sufficient size to push out for each match up?
Should you even make the 1st push or are you better off turtling?
cheers
Go to my profile and click on the How to Improve link. Search the document for the part on not knowing when to attack. Read that! Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 21:29 eYeball wrote:
PvT - What is the compositon I want against 2:1:1 with ghosts/marauder/marine plus medivac? I have recently tried to have around 6-7 colossus when facing this composition along with chargelots/archons and some stalkers. Is there any more valid composition? Feels like ghost emp takes away everything. And for HT with feedback to be efficent should I 1 HT for each ghost? I was thinking otherwise when his push hits to perhaps switch to stargate comp mostly like voidray/carrier with chargelot and maybe HT/archon. Thoughts?
PvZ - What is really the composition you want against mass infestor + broodlord or whatever unit he is going? Feels like mass fungal/neutrals own me everytime, colossus/immortal/voidray/archon get mass neutral paralised and the rest fungaled until death with infested terrans. Should I get one HT per how many infestors? Thanks! Colo/Chargelot, lots of gateways and double upgrades. PvT. That's just too many Ghosts. PvZ HT/Immortal/Voidray. Voidrays for the BL obviously, Storm for everything else, FB for Infestors that stray close, and Immortals to protect against any remax army or tech switch, or already existing roach/ultra.
That army is a bit to ideal (PvZ). I don't think you will be able to have an army without normal gateway units. Stalkers are of course the best choice but I think some sentries and maybe archons is also a good idea. And if you have colossus tech I find it really useful in lategame to make maybe 2-3 of them to force corruptors when the zerg don't want any. If they don't the extra damage is always nice. Don't do it if they really mass broolords though as they will only kill broodlings and HTs deal with infestors better.
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EPT
