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On September 08 2011 14:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 13:20 sermokala wrote:
I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production? Yeah. Just be sure to have a Stalker for the Reaper.
sweet thanks I do stalker first and skip the first zealot in my pvt build and then get a another 2 when the time a banshee comes.
Is there some glareing problem with 2 gate robo that it went out of favor completly? I remember it being effective in the beta and early months but I think its really effective. having a brace of immo's to do a lot of mineral dammge to the terran and the chance to break him if he doesn't pull probes, A zerg who doesn't tech and gets an early third would also die.
I see a glareing problem with ling infestor but caused it to die out?
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Hey TL, I have a question, how would one go about pressuring or nullifying a greedy zerg from taking an early third? Think Ret style where the bastard can get 70 drones in under 8 minutes. It just seems that you either have to stock up on cannons to defend a counter attack and reduce your army, or really get lucky with the Zerg making a bad decision.
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On September 09 2011 03:08 Mikelius wrote:
Hey TL, I have a question, how would one go about pressuring or nullifying a greedy zerg from taking an early third? Think Ret style where the bastard can get 70 drones in under 8 minutes. It just seems that you either have to stock up on cannons to defend a counter attack and reduce your army, or really get lucky with the Zerg making a bad decision.
From watching Puzzle's stream a lot, you seem to have a pretty good timing in your hands. Off of a 1gate fe into 3 gate and forge and even a cannon, if you macro up well and spend your resources on units and units alone, you poke at 60 food. Leave behind a sentry in conjunction with your simcity (2gates + cannon+ nexus with the sentry in a 1x1 square on hold position) and move into the 3rd (proxy pylon optional). If they took a 3rd before opening roach, you will be able to deny the expansion. If they stayed on 2 bases and didn't go roach (if they are going for some kind of baneling or infestor timing) you can usually kill the natural with good FFs as they will only have slings to defend, and later just a small number of banelings.
The only time you can't really do this push is if they took their 3rd at a more conservative timing and opened roach. If they did that I don't recommend doing this push. This can all be scouted with hallucination which you can research after you train a round of sentries after WG finishes. GL!
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what time is a good time to go back into a zerg base to see if they're still mining gas?
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On September 09 2011 03:23 ThatGuy89 wrote:
what time is a good time to go back into a zerg base to see if they're still mining gas?
You can't always get this information. In a typical 14/14 speedling opening, they have about 100 gas when the pool finishes so you can easily tell if they are pulling off drones from gas because he will just have started lings/the queen when he would be pulling drones off. However, with pool-gas openers or pool-hatch-gas or hatch-gas-pool or hatch-pool gas, it can be difficult to know exactly when. Your best bet is to just keep your probe alive as long as possible when lings are out, and if you see the pool twitching, drones on gas means something fishy is in the works.
Sorry I couldn't be more specific!
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On September 09 2011 02:50 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 14:03 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 08 2011 13:20 sermokala wrote:
I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production? Yeah. Just be sure to have a Stalker for the Reaper. sweet thanks I do stalker first and skip the first zealot in my pvt build and then get a another 2 when the time a banshee comes. Is there some glareing problem with 2 gate robo that it went out of favor completly? I remember it being effective in the beta and early months but I think its really effective. having a brace of immo's to do a lot of mineral dammge to the terran and the chance to break him if he doesn't pull probes, A zerg who doesn't tech and gets an early third would also die. I see a glareing problem with ling infestor but caused it to die out?
I think it's just because it sucks if terran FEs and you can't do any serious damage. It's safer to FE yourself and trying to defend whatever the terran might throw at you.
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On September 09 2011 02:50 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 14:03 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 08 2011 13:20 sermokala wrote:
I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production? Yeah. Just be sure to have a Stalker for the Reaper. sweet thanks I do stalker first and skip the first zealot in my pvt build and then get a another 2 when the time a banshee comes. Is there some glareing problem with 2 gate robo that it went out of favor completly? I remember it being effective in the beta and early months but I think its really effective. having a brace of immo's to do a lot of mineral dammge to the terran and the chance to break him if he doesn't pull probes, A zerg who doesn't tech and gets an early third would also die. I see a glareing problem with ling infestor but caused it to die out?
two gate robo is still common in PvT and PvP as a robo build, the issue is that immortals are completely useless v zerglings, and while useful against roaches, the range limited their use (after patch may be more common) add to that they aren't cost effective v roaches.
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Gate robo gate has its place in pvt. it's an extremely safe build but not an economical one. A lot of times if a protoss player goes gate robo gate only to find the terran went 1 rax fe, his best option is to put down another gate (or 2 in some cases) and try to all in with gateway units and immortals. Of course you can expand rather than continue making units if that is your fancy. You would most likely use this build close spawns metal/temple.. though close spawns metal doesn't exist anymore since you don't play it on ladder and any real tournament that uses the map has close spawns disabled.
This build is horrible against zerg if you are trying to play a macro game, and I don't really see it working as a one-base either as you are basically blind countering roaches and slings will eventually clean you out if you try to walk across the map with immortal + gateway comps.
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On September 09 2011 00:57 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 23:57 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 08 2011 23:25 WutTheDerp wrote:
I know the OP said to scan the thread but with the 48 pages I figured I would ask my Qs anyway
1. At what time/food should you have a ground army of sufficient size to push out for each match up?
Should you even make the 1st push or are you better off turtling?
cheers
Go to my profile and click on the How to Improve link. Search the document for the part on not knowing when to attack. Read that! On September 08 2011 21:29 eYeball wrote:
PvT - What is the compositon I want against 2:1:1 with ghosts/marauder/marine plus medivac? I have recently tried to have around 6-7 colossus when facing this composition along with chargelots/archons and some stalkers. Is there any more valid composition? Feels like ghost emp takes away everything. And for HT with feedback to be efficent should I 1 HT for each ghost? I was thinking otherwise when his push hits to perhaps switch to stargate comp mostly like voidray/carrier with chargelot and maybe HT/archon. Thoughts?
PvZ - What is really the composition you want against mass infestor + broodlord or whatever unit he is going? Feels like mass fungal/neutrals own me everytime, colossus/immortal/voidray/archon get mass neutral paralised and the rest fungaled until death with infested terrans. Should I get one HT per how many infestors? Thanks! Colo/Chargelot, lots of gateways and double upgrades. PvT. That's just too many Ghosts. PvZ HT/Immortal/Voidray. Voidrays for the BL obviously, Storm for everything else, FB for Infestors that stray close, and Immortals to protect against any remax army or tech switch, or already existing roach/ultra. That army is a bit to ideal (PvZ). I don't think you will be able to have an army without normal gateway units. Stalkers are of course the best choice but I think some sentries and maybe archons is also a good idea. And if you have colossus tech I find it really useful in lategame to make maybe 2-3 of them to force corruptors when the zerg don't want any. If they don't the extra damage is always nice. Don't do it if they really mass broolords though as they will only kill broodlings and HTs deal with infestors better.
If you're in late game, this is the army comp you want. If you aren't in late game, then why in the world did you let him tech to Infestor BL freely.
On September 09 2011 02:50 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 14:03 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 08 2011 13:20 sermokala wrote:
I'm trying to do my own thing and do a zealot immo FE with 2 gates and 1 robo. Is it worth it to cut probes at 22 to get that nexus down and then restart probe production? Yeah. Just be sure to have a Stalker for the Reaper. sweet thanks I do stalker first and skip the first zealot in my pvt build and then get a another 2 when the time a banshee comes. Is there some glareing problem with 2 gate robo that it went out of favor completly? I remember it being effective in the beta and early months but I think its really effective. having a brace of immo's to do a lot of mineral dammge to the terran and the chance to break him if he doesn't pull probes, A zerg who doesn't tech and gets an early third would also die.
2 Gate Robo will leave you economically behind against an FE in PvT. So if you plan to do some 2 Colo + Lance +1 allin or something on close pos, then a 2 Gate Robo would be fine. PvP and PvZ it wasn't really ever a "good" build, and I can't see any application in PvZ other than some 1 base allin.
On September 09 2011 03:19 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:08 Mikelius wrote:
Hey TL, I have a question, how would one go about pressuring or nullifying a greedy zerg from taking an early third? Think Ret style where the bastard can get 70 drones in under 8 minutes. It just seems that you either have to stock up on cannons to defend a counter attack and reduce your army, or really get lucky with the Zerg making a bad decision. From watching Puzzle's stream a lot, you seem to have a pretty good timing in your hands. Off of a 1gate fe into 3 gate and forge and even a cannon, if you macro up well and spend your resources on units and units alone, you poke at 60 food. Leave behind a sentry in conjunction with your simcity (2gates + cannon+ nexus with the sentry in a 1x1 square on hold position) and move into the 3rd (proxy pylon optional). If they took a 3rd before opening roach, you will be able to deny the expansion. If they stayed on 2 bases and didn't go roach (if they are going for some kind of baneling or infestor timing) you can usually kill the natural with good FFs as they will only have slings to defend, and later just a small number of banelings. The only time you can't really do this push is if they took their 3rd at a more conservative timing and opened roach. If they did that I don't recommend doing this push. This can all be scouted with hallucination which you can research after you train a round of sentries after WG finishes. GL!
I see HuK running around with small attacks periodically. You can do this off of really any opening. You need to realize when the third goes down, and if so you need to just attack it with a few units, simultaneously clear out the Xel'Nagas; do whatever you can to make the Z as uncomfortable as possible with your unit movements. If you notice an opening where he's droning and just being risky, kill him. A good way to start being more active is to chrono out a couple Zealots before you Core finishes during a FFE, and move around the towers/look for an early third.
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While I do love HuK's play, sometimes he roams around a bit too much without any specific goals to be had. He is extremely bold after slings are out with his gw compositions as he is very confident in his ability to save his stalkers with forcefields from his nearby squad of sentry/zealot. With that in mind, I think it's still extremely important to use a timing that you know will do damage 100%, like Puzzle's that I mentioned above. I have never seen it fail against what I've stated as long as you see it with a hallu scout. If he opens roach and a conservative 3rd (9 mins, perhaps a bit earlier), there is absolutely no way you can do any damage with these pokes. Even if you manage to save your stalkers, you are going to lose all of your sentries if you move out with them and you're not going to snipe the 3rd.
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On September 09 2011 04:11 Alejandrisha wrote:
While I do love HuK's play, sometimes he roams around a bit too much without any specific goals to be had. He is extremely bold after slings are out with his gw compositions as he is very confident in his ability to save his stalkers with forcefields from his nearby squad of sentry/zealot. With that in mind, I think it's still extremely important to use a timing that you know will do damage 100%, like Puzzle's that I mentioned above. I have never seen it fail against what I've stated as long as you see it with a hallu scout. If he opens roach and a conservative 3rd (9 mins, perhaps a bit earlier), there is absolutely no way you can do any damage with these pokes. Even if you manage to save your stalkers, you are going to lose all of your sentries if you move out with them and you're not going to snipe the 3rd.
Sounds very cool, would be really sweet to get a replay of this exemplifying? I haven't seen anything around anywhere besides his streaming (which I don't have time to catch usually).
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Is there some consensus about whether FFE vs zerg is always the way to go if you can do it, as opposed to even a 1/2 gate FE? Sorry if this has been addressed, search didn't get me anything.
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You gotta dig up his vods from jtv by searching zenexpuzzle on jtv rather than trying to go to his channel as I don't think you can find them that way any more.
The best applications of this are against ling/infestor builds, from my experience. If they don't get like 5 spine crawlers you can do significant damage before infestors get out. If they do put up those spines, you at least delay his 3rd longer than he'd like and you can, in the interim, transition into a colossus timing.. which is sadly the only way I've find to be effective in dealing with this style. In conjunction with 1 star pheonix, you can whip out some pretty nasty timings. I have a rep here some where.. gimme a min xD
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On September 09 2011 04:14 Carl_Sagan wrote:
Is there some consensus about whether FFE vs zerg is always the way to go if you can do it, as opposed to even a 1/2 gate FE? Sorry if this has been addressed, search didn't get me anything.
I think it's mostly up to personal preference, assuming the map allows any of those openings. I think we can all agree we need to FFE on Tal'Darim, for example.
Since I can do all three openings, I usually choose to do whichever one I feel will work best against whatever the Zerg is doing, or perhaps depending on what map it is or set in the series.
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On September 09 2011 04:14 Carl_Sagan wrote:
Is there some consensus about whether FFE vs zerg is always the way to go if you can do it, as opposed to even a 1/2 gate FE? Sorry if this has been addressed, search didn't get me anything.
I'm not big into FFE personally. But I'm forced to do it on tal'darim because you can't defend the natural with simcity in time off of a 1 gate fe, with 2 additional gates and a forge at the front after you expand if they make 2 injects of lings you just kind of die. On any other map I much prefer 1 or 2 gate fe into additional simcity in the natural. I feel like you can curb zerg greed a lot more effectively, as with an ffe the zerg has no timings to worry about until after 8 mins, so he can easily take a 3rd in time to get spore/queen up to deny any void shenanigans at the 3rd as well as the ability to scout you to know exactly what timing you're going to hit. If he does take the 3rd, I think theres only 1 build that will kill him regardless.. the infamous 1 gas 7-8 gate zealot stalker speshul taktik. I've never seen anything but 2 base roach hold that.
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http://sc2bc.com/download/454 heres that rep cecil
He doesn't take the third, but you can easily see it would be dead if he did. In the case he doesn't, like I said, just deny the third until you become scared of infestors popping and prepare for them in the meantime. I probably should have walled off that top hall where his slings all ran through as I didn't see that flank until too late.. Lol I cannot believe the nexus stayed up O_O
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On September 09 2011 04:23 Alejandrisha wrote:http://sc2bc.com/download/454 heres that rep cecil He doesn't take the third, but you can easily see it would be dead if he did. In the case he doesn't, like I said, just deny the third until you become scared of infestors popping and prepare for them in the meantime. I probably should have walled off that top hall where his slings all ran through as I didn't see that flank until too late.. Lol I cannot believe the nexus stayed up O_O
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error 403
;_;
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On September 09 2011 04:47 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:23 Alejandrisha wrote:http://sc2bc.com/replay/454 heres that rep cecil He doesn't take the third, but you can easily see it would be dead if he did. In the case he doesn't, like I said, just deny the third until you become scared of infestors popping and prepare for them in the meantime. I probably should have walled off that top hall where his slings all ran through as I didn't see that flank until too late.. Lol I cannot believe the nexus stayed up O_O Show nested quote +Access Denied
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error 403 ;_;
tt i'll try to fix.. havent used this site for upload yet
OK I think I fixed it.. does it work now?
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On September 09 2011 04:53 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:47 Latedi wrote:On September 09 2011 04:23 Alejandrisha wrote:http://sc2bc.com/replay/454 heres that rep cecil He doesn't take the third, but you can easily see it would be dead if he did. In the case he doesn't, like I said, just deny the third until you become scared of infestors popping and prepare for them in the meantime. I probably should have walled off that top hall where his slings all ran through as I didn't see that flank until too late.. Lol I cannot believe the nexus stayed up O_O Access Denied
You do not have permission to view this page. Please try contact the web site administrator if you believe you should be able to view this page.
error 403 ;_; tt i'll try to fix.. havent used this site for upload yet OK I think I fixed it.. does it work now?
Yup ^^ thanks. Sorry for slow answer I was playing SC2.
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On September 09 2011 05:41 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:53 Alejandrisha wrote:On September 09 2011 04:47 Latedi wrote:On September 09 2011 04:23 Alejandrisha wrote:http://sc2bc.com/replay/454 heres that rep cecil He doesn't take the third, but you can easily see it would be dead if he did. In the case he doesn't, like I said, just deny the third until you become scared of infestors popping and prepare for them in the meantime. I probably should have walled off that top hall where his slings all ran through as I didn't see that flank until too late.. Lol I cannot believe the nexus stayed up O_O Access Denied
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error 403 ;_; tt i'll try to fix.. havent used this site for upload yet OK I think I fixed it.. does it work now? Yup ^^ thanks. Sorry for slow answer I was playing SC2.
didn't notice, as I myself was playing sc2 xD
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EPT
