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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 09 2011 05:52 Alejandrisha wrote: didn't notice, as I myself was playing sc2 xD Haha then it's all good  Awesome replay though. You threatened his natural/third for a long time which was really good for you and also the colossi/phoenix was awesome. I really thought phoenixes were a bad choice against infestors, guess you should never rule out a unit too fast. Now I must try this out :F | ||
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Swad1000
United States366 Posts
9 pylon > send scout 12 forge > send second scout Then it varies upon what pool timings are and what I scout but usually goes 18 nex 18 cannon 18 gateway 18 pylon gas/gas core Is holding the front wall possible with this FFE against a 6-7-8-9 pool with the proper reaction of cutting probes and dropping 2 gates/cannon or does FFE die flat out to early pools? | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:11 Swad1000 wrote: Starting to play sc2 again and practicing build orders like crazy. My current FFE build is. 9 pylon > send scout 12 forge > send second scout Then it varies upon what pool timings are and what I scout but usually goes 18 nex 18 cannon 18 gateway 18 pylon gas/gas core Is holding the front wall possible with this FFE against a 6-7-8-9 pool with the proper reaction of cutting probes and dropping 2 gates/cannon or does FFE die flat out to early pools? Its worth mentioning that you CAN nexus first on large maps and you see that the pool timing isn't indicative of an early ling rush. Often this is the better choice because your nexus will be down long before the Zerg hatch is. The downside is that you can't cannon rush them if they play too greedy or forget to put an ovie over their hatch. Answering your question: No. Its not. July wrecked... Yonghwa I think it was on Terminus RE, the largest map in the game, with a 6 or 7 pool after he FFE'd. Of course, Yonghwa had the proper response and cannoned off his mineral line, but yes, the Forge and wall part of the FFE does die to early pool rushes unless scouted in time and properly prepared for. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 09 2011 05:58 Latedi wrote: Haha then it's all good Awesome replay though. You threatened his natural/third for a long time which was really good for you and also the colossi/phoenix was awesome. I really thought phoenixes were a bad choice against infestors, guess you should never rule out a unit too fast. Now I must try this out :FYeah I think that was the first time I've tried using phoenixes in this way. Time told me it was good so I figured I'd try it out. The ling/infestor combo and the roach/infestor combo rely on infestors spells for AA, so even if your phoenixes get fungaled or shot down by infested terran, that is mana that isn't used on the rest of your army if your phoenixes are away from your ground force. It sounds shitty but in reality infestors don't actually have infinite mana as I once thought :p I'm still not sure exactly how to work them into standard builds but I've seen MC do it quite brilliantly so I will keep working at it | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:11 Swad1000 wrote: Starting to play sc2 again and practicing build orders like crazy. My current FFE build is. 9 pylon > send scout 12 forge > send second scout Then it varies upon what pool timings are and what I scout but usually goes 18 nex 18 cannon 18 gateway 18 pylon gas/gas core Is holding the front wall possible with this FFE against a 6-7-8-9 pool with the proper reaction of cutting probes and dropping 2 gates/cannon or does FFE die flat out to early pools? You can get the forge on 13 and hold off on the second chrono til about 38 nexus energy without sacrificing any safety. If you see the early pool, you need to wall off on shak. You can sometimes get away with doing that on tal'darim but your building placement has to be REALLY good. If it's on a different map where you can't wall it off, you either have to pull all your probes and hope you can stall til the cannon gets up or just sac your forge and make a cannon in your mineral line. | ||
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Swad1000
United States366 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:27 Alejandrisha wrote: You can get the forge on 13 and hold off on the second chrono til about 38 nexus energy without sacrificing any safety. If you see the early pool, you need to wall off on shak. You can sometimes get away with doing that on tal'darim but your building placement has to be REALLY good. If it's on a different map where you can't wall it off, you either have to pull all your probes and hope you can stall til the cannon gets up or just sac your forge and make a cannon in your mineral line. Thanks for the tips. Recently kr zergs have been trying to end the game with early pools instead of 700 base infestor/bl for some reason. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:38 Swad1000 wrote: Thanks for the tips. Recently kr zergs have been trying to end the game with early pools instead of 700 base infestor/bl for some reason. Yes and I'm sure that against tosses that don't double scout or know how to simcity an ffe efficiently they have a lot of success | ||
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Mackem
United Kingdom470 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:54 Mackem wrote: I'm in bronze and always lose to the most ridiculous strats such as marine/marauder pushes, mass ling/roach or mass void ray -___- Probes and pylons always! Always making probes, always having extra supply (no supply blocks), and always making units from your Gateways, and always always staying under 200 accumulated and unused minerals. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14208 Posts
I'm not doing this as a econ or "safe" build I want it to be a pressure build much on what 3 gate is. I really like the option of going into super aggressive one base play such as what pvp is a lot of the time. If the Terran 1 gate FE's I'm going to charge up the ramp with a sentry and 2 immo's and a nice brace of zealots. straight moving the charge lots behind the bunks and focusing down the bunkers with the immos then right after move my immo's back to my base while I put down a nat and get a couple stalkers while my zealots mill around in the mineral line causing chaos and doing damage while I get a a bit of damage onto his FE and get a feel for his response. If I see a banshee then that tells me that same with a lot of bio. What I'm experimenting with is making 3 phoenix's and harassing + scouting with them while I'm at the same time react to whatever they're doing next. Ghosts scare the fuck out of me so I'm really thinking of countering them with colossi and I don't really have much . If hes going mech I massive tech switch put down 2 more stargates and a fleet beacon and going void ray carrier. Maybe a mother ship. I've had a lot of fun experimenting with shuttles and putting either HT's in them or immo's and then reinforcing an active push/ counterattack now that they don't get gigglesniped by vikings. I do 2 gate robo (gate robo gate thanks for assuming it) to get greedy with my expo without worrying about speedling roach all in's. I'm as befuddled as the next guy on what the hell to do in pvz. Pvp Immo's for life what else would people do? Immo's are like BFH's in pvp just need like 8 and then they're unstoppable even with perfect blink+ FF micro. | ||
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Mackem
United Kingdom470 Posts
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
1. I 16 Nexus in every game vT now. What are the things (or timings) that this is most vulnerable against? A really early 2rax bunkerrush (like vs Z), a delayed 3-4 rax with only Marines (I suspect that it is this), or even things like Reactor-Techlab 2rax or stim timings? And assuming that I face 1-1-1, what is generally the best response? I have tried just massing gateway units, going for colossi and going for fast chargelots and it didn't seem to matter because my army is just too huge. But in case I lose more probes than I want against Helliondrop/Banshee, what is the best thing to do? 2. I use a 2-Gate sentry expand against Zerg and generally follow it up with 4-Gate pressure that "hits" around minute 8. If I see misplaced Spine crawlers and get a really good proxy pylon up, how hard can I commit? I've seen Puzzle just running behind the Z mineralline if he gets into the natural and killing the hatch. 3. In choya vs Jinro at one MLG, I remember choya doing a void ray opener with 2 gates, and adding robo + phoenix just in time for a possible cloaked banshee to arrive while harassing (and eventually killing) Jinro with the rest of his army. Since the replay doesn't seem to be out yet, can someone direct me to a replay where a P does this build? Help much appreciated. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
On September 09 2011 07:16 CecilSunkure wrote: Probes and pylons always! Always making probes, always having extra supply (no supply blocks), and always making units from your Gateways, and always always staying under 200 accumulated and unused minerals. Then how will be ever expand O_o jkjk But seriously I've had this question forever and can never get a straight answer: When can I safely skip my first zealot in PvT. I see pros do it all the time, and I can't quite figure out if its because they are scouting something, or just trying to cut a corner. If there are tells to look for to skip it that would be Amazing! Thanks guys! | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On September 09 2011 09:42 stokes17 wrote: Then how will be ever expand O_o jkjk But seriously I've had this question forever and can never get a straight answer: When can I safely skip my first zealot in PvT. I see pros do it all the time, and I can't quite figure out if its because they are scouting something, or just trying to cut a corner. If there are tells to look for to skip it that would be Amazing! Thanks guys! Whenever you're not in close pos perhaps. | ||
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MuffinFTW
United States235 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 09 2011 08:16 ForTheDr3am wrote: I haven't played sc2 for a month now, and while it seems that everybody around my MMR has gotten worse, there are a few questions that arose. 1. I 16 Nexus in every game vT now. What are the things (or timings) that this is most vulnerable against? A really early 2rax bunkerrush (like vs Z), a delayed 3-4 rax with only Marines (I suspect that it is this), or even things like Reactor-Techlab 2rax or stim timings? And assuming that I face 1-1-1, what is generally the best response? I have tried just massing gateway units, going for colossi and going for fast chargelots and it didn't seem to matter because my army is just too huge. But in case I lose more probes than I want against Helliondrop/Banshee, what is the best thing to do? 2. I use a 2-Gate sentry expand against Zerg and generally follow it up with 4-Gate pressure that "hits" around minute 8. If I see misplaced Spine crawlers and get a really good proxy pylon up, how hard can I commit? I've seen Puzzle just running behind the Z mineralline if he gets into the natural and killing the hatch. 3. In choya vs Jinro at one MLG, I remember choya doing a void ray opener with 2 gates, and adding robo + phoenix just in time for a possible cloaked banshee to arrive while harassing (and eventually killing) Jinro with the rest of his army. Since the replay doesn't seem to be out yet, can someone direct me to a replay where a P does this build? Help much appreciated. Yes 16nexus will just die to a 2rax without addons (what do you even call it now? there's no bbs and 2rax usually refers to reactor + teach lab). I think you have to scout on 9 so you can find the terran base in time to see gas if you want to do this. Don't do it on 2 player maps either. Another good build you might want to consider is HuK's FE which is basically a normal gate gas core but you don't get any units and save chronoboost for warpgates like a 4gate. At 20 food you make the nexus and cut probes to throw down an additional 3 gateways. If you managed to scout what the terran is doing you don't really need all of them vs for example a gasless FE. The PvZ build you use is really good but you have to make sure not to lose the sentries, researching hallucination is great for scouting ahead and see how much you can commit to an attack. The minerals are used as a defensive position which I am sure you have noticed is a good idea. On September 09 2011 09:42 stokes17 wrote: Then how will be ever expand O_o jkjk But seriously I've had this question forever and can never get a straight answer: When can I safely skip my first zealot in PvT. I see pros do it all the time, and I can't quite figure out if its because they are scouting something, or just trying to cut a corner. If there are tells to look for to skip it that would be Amazing! Thanks guys! This depends on your build and the terran's build. For example say you 1gate FE with zealot stalker stalker on kind of close positions. The zealot is really useful against any concussive shell rushes where the terran pokes with marine marauder marauder with an occasional SCV. While if the terran instead goes for a tech build you might want to expand faster instead. On September 09 2011 11:48 MuffinFTW wrote: In PvP and I manage to hold off a cannon rush. What should I do as a transition? I assumed a 4 gate would kill my opponent, but he was able to hold it off with his own. This all depends on who is ahead in tech after the cannon rush. You as a defender should be ahead if you didn't lose anything but if you can't tell when the canon rusher gives up, he might very well be teching faster than you. Regardless I think teching is a better choice as 4gate is the most common followup in any crazy situations, you just have to be prepared for your opponent's 4gate if he's doing it. If you are ahead in tech and army it's a good idea to attack him to force more canons. This might mean sending your first zealot to his base. If his gate was too late your zealot could either do damage or force him to make one or more canons. Summary: 1. Have him make more canons to slow down whatever else he's doing 2. Can a 4gate kill him? If it can, do it ^^. 3. Else tech, this is the normal safe option as the game has kind of normalized. On another note, if you defend the canon rush with canons it is sometimes possible to canon rush him back. Sometimes it works and sometimes the initial rusher will just throw up canons of his own to defend. It's still a lot of fun to do heh. | ||
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inbox24
Australia344 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 09 2011 17:28 inbox24 wrote: What build would you guys recommend a totally new protoss player to master for ladder play? Something that's easy to learn but also is reasonably solid. I'm looking for something to practice over and over again against the computer before I start laddering. PvT: 1-3gate expand. PvP: 4gate or 3gate robo. PvZ: 3gate expand or forge fast expand. 3gate expand in PvT and PvZ are the safest and easiest builds but they end up behind economically to other faster expands. 1gate expand (PvT) and forge fast expand (PvZ) are a lot harder to defend cheese and all ins with though as they often require you to scout and read your opponent perfectly. As for PvP the 3gate robo is the safest build there is, however a 4gate is much easier to execute and is good even at the highest level of play right now. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On September 09 2011 17:28 inbox24 wrote: What build would you guys recommend a totally new protoss player to master for ladder play? Something that's easy to learn but also is reasonably solid. I'm looking for something to practice over and over again against the computer before I start laddering. Learn the 4gate, the most critical protoss build in PvP. Also learn the three gate sentry expand for PvZ and the three gate expand PvT. They are safe builds that give you alot of infrastructure and security. Once you learn that i suggest you learn the Forge Fast Expand (vs. Zerg) and 1 gate fast expand (vs Terran) but i would recommend waiting till you're around platinum or higher because forge fast expand is very delicate to a bunch of zerg allins you have to scout for diligently, and you may have to have decent micro to hold a 1gate FE vs a two rax. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On September 09 2011 17:40 Latedi wrote: PvT: 1-3gate expand. PvP: 4gate or 3gate robo. PvZ: 3gate expand or forge fast expand. 3gate expand in PvT and PvZ are the safest and easiest builds but they end up behind economically to other faster expands. 1gate expand (PvT) and forge fast expand (PvZ) are a lot harder to defend cheese and all ins with though as they often require you to scout and read your opponent perfectly. As for PvP the 3gate robo is the safest build there is, however a 4gate is much easier to execute and is good even at the highest level of play right now. I don't see how you can recommend 3 gate robo in pvp without giving a specific build order. Any normal 3 gate robo build will die to 4 gate. In fact, no mainstream safe PvP builds involve 3 gate robo as an opening. Also, 3 gate expand in PvT isn't particularly safe versus any 1-1-1 builds. As a newer player, I would recommend: PvT: 2 gate robo PvZ: 3 gate expand PvP: geiko's defensive 3 gate However, check my profile for a guide on all the known "safe" PvP builds. | ||
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