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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On September 10 2011 02:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:38 Latedi wrote:On September 10 2011 01:30 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:06 4kmonk wrote:
Ok, so instead of a 3 gate robo, you mean a defensive 3 gate that transitions into a robotics build. Generally, when someone says "3 gate robo", he implies that you build the robo and attempt to defend a 4 gate using the robo. If you wanna learn all the known "safe" PvP builds, check out my thread in my guide. Yeah, this. You don't hold off a 4 gate with a robo. You hold it off with 3 gates and perfect micro, then add the robo afterwards to ensure you don't throw away a huge lead to surprise DTs. This doesn't make sense to me : / a 4gate spends slightly more resources than you have income. This should mean a 3gate will spend less resources, and the remainder needs to go somewhere, like a robo? What are you doing with the money? Building probes? Second Assimilator, 3 + Probes, perhaps 2-4 more Probes on the mineral line, 200/100 for the Robo.
If this is true then what I am saying should also make sense, I do not get more probes and instead get an immortal. I get the second assimilator earlier though which may be a mistake. Why do i skip more probes? Because they let me expand faster than colossus,it abuses the metagame as people love blink atm and you don't need to oversaturate the main anyways. Does this make the argument to more of a "which style do you prefer" than "what is the right response"...?
Edit: If I somehow manage to kill a lot of units, I get more probes sometimes. I'm not going all-in or anything.
Edit 2: Did you see Alicia vs MC (I think) on xel naga caverns? He totally raped the 4gate, it wasn't even close.
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On September 10 2011 03:31 Theeakoz wrote:
Thanks latedi.
No problem I am happy to help people ^_^
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Hey guys I'm pretty new to Starcraft 2, so sorry for the incredibly newbie question, but I just started playing my first few practice leauge matches and I'm doing alright, but i recently played a game against a terran opponent and he had cloaked banshees. I got out like 2 or 3 observers to detect the banshees but he just target fired them and then destroyed my army since I couldn't attack him. So my question is, to counter this is it just a matter of making more observers? Make some cannons?? What is the best strategy for detecting cloaked units??
PS: I dont know if it matters, but I was doing like a 4 gate, and making immortals aswell.
Thanks in advance for the tips guys 
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I'm not sure if this fits this thread but... This protoss thread literally made me laugh my ass off (scroll to the bottom).
Hey guys I'm pretty new to Starcraft 2, so sorry for the incredibly newbie question, but I just started playing my first few practice leauge matches and I'm doing alright, but i recently played a game against a terran opponent and he had cloaked banshees. I got out like 2 or 3 observers to detect the banshees but he just target fired them and then destroyed my army since I couldn't attack him. So my question is, to counter this is it just a matter of making more observers? Make some cannons?? What is the best strategy for detecting cloaked units??
PS: I dont know if it matters, but I was doing like a 4 gate, and making immortals aswell.
Thanks in advance for the tips guys
The easiest way would be to have a lot of stalkers with observers for assistance. If he is making units to snipe the observers and then using banshees to take you out the best response would be to make more observers but not have them all close to the battle. So if one gets sniped you bring in the next one. For this, upgrading observer speed is a good choice as it let's you micro them easier. If you are skilled/lucky you might even have terran waste a scan without killing anything. Canons in the mineral lines is also nice if he's really massing banshees as they can delay or kill them.
In short: get many observers, spread them out, get observer speed and make canons in your mineral lines to defend haraass. This however is very excessive, usually one or two observers will be enough if the terran's objective is not to snipe your observers.
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On September 10 2011 04:17 Latedi wrote:I'm not sure if this fits this thread but... This protoss thread literally made me laugh my ass off (scroll to the bottom).
Show nested quote +Hey guys I'm pretty new to Starcraft 2, so sorry for the incredibly newbie question, but I just started playing my first few practice leauge matches and I'm doing alright, but i recently played a game against a terran opponent and he had cloaked banshees. I got out like 2 or 3 observers to detect the banshees but he just target fired them and then destroyed my army since I couldn't attack him. So my question is, to counter this is it just a matter of making more observers? Make some cannons?? What is the best strategy for detecting cloaked units??
PS: I dont know if it matters, but I was doing like a 4 gate, and making immortals aswell.
Thanks in advance for the tips guys The easiest way would be to have a lot of stalkers with observers for assistance. If he is making units to snipe the observers and then using banshees to take you out the best response would be to make more observers but not have them all close to the battle. So if one gets sniped you bring in the next one. For this, upgrading observer speed is a good choice as it let's you micro them easier. If you are skilled/lucky you might even have terran waste a scan without killing anything. Canons in the mineral lines is also nice if he's really massing banshees as they can delay or kill them. In short: get many observers, spread them out, get observer speed and make canons in your mineral lines to defend haraass. This however is very excessive, usually one or two observers will be enough if the terran's objective is not to snipe your observers.
Yeah... that imbecile guy was a dumbass. Then there was that aaa guy who turned his Tester fanclub into the anti-fan club somehow. Crazy people.
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On September 10 2011 06:16 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:17 Latedi wrote:I'm not sure if this fits this thread but... This protoss thread literally made me laugh my ass off (scroll to the bottom).
Hey guys I'm pretty new to Starcraft 2, so sorry for the incredibly newbie question, but I just started playing my first few practice leauge matches and I'm doing alright, but i recently played a game against a terran opponent and he had cloaked banshees. I got out like 2 or 3 observers to detect the banshees but he just target fired them and then destroyed my army since I couldn't attack him. So my question is, to counter this is it just a matter of making more observers? Make some cannons?? What is the best strategy for detecting cloaked units??
PS: I dont know if it matters, but I was doing like a 4 gate, and making immortals aswell.
Thanks in advance for the tips guys The easiest way would be to have a lot of stalkers with observers for assistance. If he is making units to snipe the observers and then using banshees to take you out the best response would be to make more observers but not have them all close to the battle. So if one gets sniped you bring in the next one. For this, upgrading observer speed is a good choice as it let's you micro them easier. If you are skilled/lucky you might even have terran waste a scan without killing anything. Canons in the mineral lines is also nice if he's really massing banshees as they can delay or kill them. In short: get many observers, spread them out, get observer speed and make canons in your mineral lines to defend haraass. This however is very excessive, usually one or two observers will be enough if the terran's objective is not to snipe your observers. Yeah... that imbecile guy was a dumbass. Then there was that aaa guy who turned his Tester fanclub into the anti-fan club somehow. Crazy people.
No hate, he made me laugh Alej and Imke... Imake... something... Even more so heh. However, how do you turn a fanclub into an anti-fanclub? xD
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United States8476 Posts
On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 10 2011 02:38 Latedi wrote:On September 10 2011 01:30 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:06 4kmonk wrote:
Ok, so instead of a 3 gate robo, you mean a defensive 3 gate that transitions into a robotics build. Generally, when someone says "3 gate robo", he implies that you build the robo and attempt to defend a 4 gate using the robo. If you wanna learn all the known "safe" PvP builds, check out my thread in my guide. Yeah, this. You don't hold off a 4 gate with a robo. You hold it off with 3 gates and perfect micro, then add the robo afterwards to ensure you don't throw away a huge lead to surprise DTs. This doesn't make sense to me : / a 4gate spends slightly more resources than you have income. This should mean a 3gate will spend less resources, and the remainder needs to go somewhere, like a robo? What are you doing with the money? Building probes? Second Assimilator, 3 + Probes, perhaps 2-4 more Probes on the mineral line, 200/100 for the Robo. If this is true then what I am saying should also make sense, I do not get more probes and instead get an immortal. I get the second assimilator earlier though which may be a mistake. Why do i skip more probes? Because they let me expand faster than colossus,it abuses the metagame as people love blink atm and you don't need to oversaturate the main anyways. Does this make the argument to more of a "which style do you prefer" than "what is the right response"...? Edit: If I somehow manage to kill a lot of units, I get more probes sometimes. I'm not going all-in or anything. Edit 2: Did you see Alicia vs MC (I think) on xel naga caverns? He totally raped the 4gate, it wasn't even close.
Did you check out my guide? That includes all known "safe" PvP builds from 4 gate, so if what you're doing isn't on there, it most probably either isn't optimal or doesn't work vs a good 4 gate. I think it will be really helpful to understanding anti 4 gate builds.
It's hard to comment on what you're say, because I don't exactly know your build, but I can say with confidence that you can't defend a well-executed 4 gate with 2 gas, 3 gates, and a robo. Most builds defend with 2 gas and 3 gates., while some delay a 2nd gas, and some only get 2 gates. I would also recommend posting a replay of your build defending a 4 gate, because as of now, I have no idea what you're doing.
Also, I don't really understand what you're saying with this part:
On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:
Why do i skip more probes? Because they let me expand faster than colossus,it abuses the metagame as people love blink atm and you don't need to oversaturate the main anyways.
You'll have to elaborate, because I have no idea what strat you're currently doing and I have no idea how you can expand faster than collosus and why you shouldn't oversaturate versus blink. You want 30 probes eventually on 1 base no matter what, so why not get the probes faster? I don't see what collosus or blink have anything to do with it.
On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:
Does this make the argument to more of a "which style do you prefer" than "what is the right response"...?
Again, check my guide. It gives you the benefits of each build in numerical terms, so you can directly compare builds.
PS. I don't see what your first edit has to do with anything.
PPS. Alicia vs MC on xelnaga never happened.
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On September 10 2011 09:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:On September 10 2011 02:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On September 10 2011 02:38 Latedi wrote:On September 10 2011 01:30 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:06 4kmonk wrote:
Ok, so instead of a 3 gate robo, you mean a defensive 3 gate that transitions into a robotics build. Generally, when someone says "3 gate robo", he implies that you build the robo and attempt to defend a 4 gate using the robo. If you wanna learn all the known "safe" PvP builds, check out my thread in my guide. Yeah, this. You don't hold off a 4 gate with a robo. You hold it off with 3 gates and perfect micro, then add the robo afterwards to ensure you don't throw away a huge lead to surprise DTs. This doesn't make sense to me : / a 4gate spends slightly more resources than you have income. This should mean a 3gate will spend less resources, and the remainder needs to go somewhere, like a robo? What are you doing with the money? Building probes? Second Assimilator, 3 + Probes, perhaps 2-4 more Probes on the mineral line, 200/100 for the Robo. If this is true then what I am saying should also make sense, I do not get more probes and instead get an immortal. I get the second assimilator earlier though which may be a mistake. Why do i skip more probes? Because they let me expand faster than colossus,it abuses the metagame as people love blink atm and you don't need to oversaturate the main anyways. Does this make the argument to more of a "which style do you prefer" than "what is the right response"...? Edit: If I somehow manage to kill a lot of units, I get more probes sometimes. I'm not going all-in or anything. Edit 2: Did you see Alicia vs MC (I think) on xel naga caverns? He totally raped the 4gate, it wasn't even close. Did you check out my guide? That includes all known "safe" PvP builds from 4 gate, so if what you're doing isn't on there, it most probably either isn't optimal or doesn't work vs a good 4 gate. I think it will be really helpful to understanding anti 4 gate builds. It's hard to comment on what you're say, because I don't exactly know your build, but I can say with confidence that you can't defend a well-executed 4 gate with 2 gas, 3 gates, and a robo. Most builds defend with 2 gas and 3 gates., while some delay a 2nd gas, and some only get 2 gates. I would also recommend posting a replay of your build defending a 4 gate, because as of now, I have no idea what you're doing. Also, I don't really understand what you're saying with this part: Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:
Why do i skip more probes? Because they let me expand faster than colossus,it abuses the metagame as people love blink atm and you don't need to oversaturate the main anyways. You'll have to elaborate, because I have no idea what strat you're currently doing and I have no idea how you can expand faster than collosus and why you shouldn't oversaturate versus blink. You want 30 probes eventually on 1 base no matter what, so why not get the probes faster? I don't see what collosus or blink have anything to do with it. Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:55 Latedi wrote:
Does this make the argument to more of a "which style do you prefer" than "what is the right response"...? Again, check my guide. It gives you the benefits of each build in numerical terms, so you can directly compare builds. PS. I don't see what your first edit has to do with anything. PPS. Alicia vs MC on xelnaga never happened.
I saw your compilation the day it was posted but I can't say I agree with it. Maybe it is correct for the top Code S or something but I manage to defend and stuff with whatever I do. The reason I'm vague with my with my build is because I don't really know wtf I'm doing sometimes. I always do what I think is correct at the moment and don't look at the replay (it's bad I know, but it works more times than it doesn't). Most likely I'm delaying the immortal but in some scenarios I feel like I can rush for it. The reason I don't oversaturate my main is because I would rather have an expansion up faster and then make a few probes there or saturate it fully if I'm safe. This kind of works with my general midgame plan as well. Ooh not really relevant but vs robo I just cut production except colossi and expand. This usually wins me the game if they expand later or try to all-in.
I'll see if I can find someone to 4gate me tomorrow.
Ooh and about Alicia vs MC, i'm not sure who it was but Alicia certainly raped someone's 4gate on xel naga caverns. I mean it was not even close because his micro was perfect and then the immortal came out and killed off even more stuff.
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United States8476 Posts
I completely disagree that you can hold off a well executed 4 gate with a random build that you wing and every respected poster will agree with me on this. You're probably just not facing consistently well executed 4 gates.
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aham, I am still hopeful that you'll look at the replay latedi and/or 4kmonk, I dont wanna make a thread for it dont have enough to write about forgot most of the game.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 10 2011 14:47 Theeakoz wrote:
aham, I am still hopeful that you'll look at the replay latedi and/or 4kmonk, I dont wanna make a thread for it dont have enough to write about forgot most of the game.
Latedi already commented and I'm on vacation, so I don't have access to starcraft.
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I am a former Masers Terran player switching to Protoss. I have been watching replays/vods and reading random tid bits as I learn how to play Toss. I was never very good at TvP or even TvZ (49% win rate and 47% win rate respectively) and a big part of that was because my mid and late game were often a bit "lost" game plan wise which would leave my play suffering overall. I personally like to have a reactive macro approach to RTS. I have figured out openings that I like and am working on playing those off vs various other openers and that is very straight forward to me, just need to spam the games and reflect on the replays and correct mistakes.
The mid game and late game are my issue! In TvP as a Terran I just choose a mid game and jammed it at the Toss and I either did well or not. I don't want that approach. I would like to pick and choose my mid game transitions/compositions intelligently based on the map, how the early game has played, and information gained about the enemy. My TvT macro always seemed stronger when I watched my replays and it was because I understood the matchup and its transitions so much more than the other two. Near the end of my play as Terran, I learned how to really use marine/tank in TvZ and how to read the Zerg and that allowed me to increase that matchup to 65% win rate on ladder for the last 2 months of play. My play in TvZ went from 2 Rax into a tank push or a fast 3rd based on map into this : http://imageshack.us/f/84/2raxdocchart.png/
I want to get to a stage more like a bit quicker as Protoss!
What are the mid game transitions and compositions that I should be considering? Does anyone have any tips on how to pick and choose which to use in a particular game? I am interested in PvZ and PvT.
That's a huge question I know. Partial answers are welcome but if you feel motivated to wall-o-text at me I would be very appreciative!
Cheers!
P.S. Hi monk!
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Italy12246 Posts
Lately i am trying to 1gate expand as much as possible in pvt, but i feel pretty uncomfortable in dealing with 1-2 rax pressure, so what is the best reaction to:
1) 2 marauder 1 marine poke with conc shells?
2) 2rax reactor first builds (this one is especially scary)?
Specifically, should i always go zealot>stalker>sentry, or should my third unit change based on what i scout with a zealot/probe poke? Are there any specific situations in which 1gate expanding will always, no matter what die to rax pressure (as in, maps, spawning positions and whatnot)?
Thanks!
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On September 10 2011 15:54 vaderseven wrote:I am a former Masers Terran player switching to Protoss. I have been watching replays/vods and reading random tid bits as I learn how to play Toss. I was never very good at TvP or even TvZ (49% win rate and 47% win rate respectively) and a big part of that was because my mid and late game were often a bit "lost" game plan wise which would leave my play suffering overall. I personally like to have a reactive macro approach to RTS. I have figured out openings that I like and am working on playing those off vs various other openers and that is very straight forward to me, just need to spam the games and reflect on the replays and correct mistakes. The mid game and late game are my issue! In TvP as a Terran I just choose a mid game and jammed it at the Toss and I either did well or not. I don't want that approach. I would like to pick and choose my mid game transitions/compositions intelligently based on the map, how the early game has played, and information gained about the enemy. My TvT macro always seemed stronger when I watched my replays and it was because I understood the matchup and its transitions so much more than the other two. Near the end of my play as Terran, I learned how to really use marine/tank in TvZ and how to read the Zerg and that allowed me to increase that matchup to 65% win rate on ladder for the last 2 months of play. My play in TvZ went from 2 Rax into a tank push or a fast 3rd based on map into this : http://imageshack.us/f/84/2raxdocchart.png/I want to get to a stage more like a bit quicker as Protoss! What are the mid game transitions and compositions that I should be considering? Does anyone have any tips on how to pick and choose which to use in a particular game? I am interested in PvZ and PvT. That's a huge question I know. Partial answers are welcome but if you feel motivated to wall-o-text at me I would be very appreciative! Cheers! P.S. Hi monk!
So basically you are wondering what kind of armies to get in the mid game? This depends on both MU and your opponent and even so you have many viable options most of the time.
For PvT I would say you have to get higher tech while on 2 bases. Archons, colossi or high templars are needed to deal with bio armies. There are ways of getting 2/2 upgrades with blink and charge for a stalker zealot army but it feels a bit risky if you ask me as you need higher tech in late game anyway. The standard army would be zealot stalker colossus with some sentries, but I think templar tech is superior as it allows your army to be more spread out for defending drops.
For PvZ a standard army would be stalker colossus with a few sentries. However I think what you need to do in this MU varies a lot depending on the zerg's strategy. In PvT it's ok to get whatever unit composition you want but here you have to adapt a lot more. For example if zerg goes mass lings you need to get zealots but if he gets roaches you don't want them at all. Listing all army compositions used here is above my level, I don't know them all myself so I will leave that to someone else to answer. A general idea I use is to have one unit to beat every unit of my opponent. So for example if the zerg goes roach ling you want some zealots to deal with the lings and then stalkers to deal with the roaches. Stalkers are usually the mainforce in any of your armies though, and always get some sentries.
I hope I kind of answered your question, I have no idea.
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On September 10 2011 20:55 Teoita wrote:
Lately i am trying to 1gate expand as much as possible in pvt, but i feel pretty uncomfortable in dealing with 1-2 rax pressure, so what is the best reaction to:
1) 2 marauder 1 marine poke with conc shells?
2) 2rax reactor first builds (this one is especially scary)?
Specifically, should i always go zealot>stalker>sentry, or should my third unit change based on what i scout with a zealot/probe poke? Are there any specific situations in which 1gate expanding will always, no matter what die to rax pressure (as in, maps, spawning positions and whatnot)?
Thanks!
1. If you go zealot stalker stalker this should be easy to deal with.
2. I'm not sure myself but I have been told it is possible if you get 2 more gates asap after the nexus so that they finish when warpgate research finshes.
If you scout your opponent on cross positions on TDA, if you see a FE, or weird stuff like super fast 2 gas, you know you can skip the zealot. There's some 1gate FE where you get stalker stalker sentry as well, at least I think it was those units. But I don't know how it works.
1gate expand will not be able to hold the 2rax without addons. You have to cancel and get more gateways, and micro well
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 10 2011 21:23 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 20:55 Teoita wrote:
Lately i am trying to 1gate expand as much as possible in pvt, but i feel pretty uncomfortable in dealing with 1-2 rax pressure, so what is the best reaction to:
1) 2 marauder 1 marine poke with conc shells?
2) 2rax reactor first builds (this one is especially scary)?
Specifically, should i always go zealot>stalker>sentry, or should my third unit change based on what i scout with a zealot/probe poke? Are there any specific situations in which 1gate expanding will always, no matter what die to rax pressure (as in, maps, spawning positions and whatnot)?
Thanks! 1. If you go zealot stalker stalker this should be easy to deal with. 2. I'm not sure myself but I have been told it is possible if you get 2 more gates asap after the nexus so that they finish when warpgate research finshes. If you scout your opponent on cross positions on TDA, if you see a FE, or weird stuff like super fast 2 gas, you know you can skip the zealot. There's some 1gate FE where you get stalker stalker sentry as well, at least I think it was those units. But I don't know how it works. 1gate expand will not be able to hold the 2rax without addons. You have to cancel and get more gateways, and micro well
2rax without addons ala pvz? Never heard of that in pvt...
edit: also, micro tips for 2marauders/marine vs 2stalkers/zealot? I guess send the zealot on a marauder and focus the other with the stalkers, does that make sense?
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On September 10 2011 21:26 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 21:23 Latedi wrote:On September 10 2011 20:55 Teoita wrote:
Lately i am trying to 1gate expand as much as possible in pvt, but i feel pretty uncomfortable in dealing with 1-2 rax pressure, so what is the best reaction to:
1) 2 marauder 1 marine poke with conc shells?
2) 2rax reactor first builds (this one is especially scary)?
Specifically, should i always go zealot>stalker>sentry, or should my third unit change based on what i scout with a zealot/probe poke? Are there any specific situations in which 1gate expanding will always, no matter what die to rax pressure (as in, maps, spawning positions and whatnot)?
Thanks! 1. If you go zealot stalker stalker this should be easy to deal with. 2. I'm not sure myself but I have been told it is possible if you get 2 more gates asap after the nexus so that they finish when warpgate research finshes. If you scout your opponent on cross positions on TDA, if you see a FE, or weird stuff like super fast 2 gas, you know you can skip the zealot. There's some 1gate FE where you get stalker stalker sentry as well, at least I think it was those units. But I don't know how it works. 1gate expand will not be able to hold the 2rax without addons. You have to cancel and get more gateways, and micro well 2rax without addons ala pvz? Never heard of that in pvt... edit: also, micro tips for 2marauders/marine vs 2stalkers/zealot? I guess send the zealot on a marauder and focus the other with the stalkers, does that make sense?
It's called marine SCV all in. When you see it, you will hate it : ) I think the zealot should just be chasing them, change target if he's kiting. While the stalkers are focus firing whatever they can, don't forget to back off with a stalker if it gets low health. Even if you know it will die due to concussive shells it can give your other units more time to deal damage, and if he changes target you can go back with it.
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4kmonk:
I have no replay as I have no protoss who wants to 4gate me lol but here's my buld in general
scout on 9
13 gate
second gas after stalker
zealot stalker stalker sentry
cut probes after the opponent so you have superior eco and tech
add 2 gates ~ after the second stalker, add a robo
chronoboost whatever you need and deny pylons under the ramp
Ooh and I realized that game I was talking about was not on xel naga caverns but it was using the same tileset, so I was thinking maybe it was on xel naga fortress?
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EPT
