EPTHere is a replay. http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/PvZtrouble.SC2Replay
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 47
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
Here is a replay. http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/PvZtrouble.SC2Replay | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
I feel like it's kind of a game of chance where if I scout him early I will most likely win the game but if I scout last I will most likely lose. I will probably start scouting the middle where the tower is now as I can't think of a way to hold it off if I scout it too late. Has anyone else found a better way to deal with this? | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
On September 06 2011 12:29 Mitchlew wrote: I really need help against Zerg on maps where you can not FFE. It seems by the time i have hullicination and an expansion zerg is just miles head economically. It seems if i try to pressure early i will just lose all my sentries and zealots to lings and spines. It seems I just get simply out teched and out massed by a zerg player. I am literally reduced to always all inning against a zerg for my victories which I am not happy about. Please someone give me some advice on when to move out what to look for with hullicinations and how to react to what I see. Timings aswell, what is an "early third" what does 2 gases or 4 gases mean? Here is a replay. http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/PvZtrouble.SC2Replay I cant watch replay now, but will later and edit this post. Based on what you said, you seem to be doing a 3 gate sentry expand. In this build DONT ATTACK. Dont think of your push as an attack, it's just a "oh, does he have an army?" probe. If you see no army FF ramp and do minor damage, but 3 gate sentry expand will NEVER kill a half decent zerg for any equal skill level. towards getting outteched, this depends on your focus on units and unit production. I do 4th gate then forge/twilight instead of 4th 5th gate then forge/twilight that some of my friends do. Or it's 3 gate then robo at expand then 4th gate then forge. All the while pumping probes. Towards getting outmassed, this is the macro mindset thing that i'd need to watch replay for, so until i do consider this. Did he go for third around or before 10 min mark? no? then he's either teching or massing units for a push then expo, or just doing a real late all in (normally roach burrow if you didn't robo at this point). If he expod real early, did you constantly produce to match his increased production capabilities? Early third for protoss is around 10 min mark, 12 min mark is the normal expo when safe i believe (i do it by just doing it not looking at mins). 2 gas means only working off two geysers until bo is over. 8 gate +1 works off two gas, 4 gas is 4 geysers being worked on. No idea about zerg timings, need to learn them lol. EDIT AFTER WATCHING REPLAY: You got outmacrod hard. VERY minor thing was that your third was oversaturated and your natural was undersaturated. When he saw your expo, he did NOTHING but drone, and you didn't do any pressure to make him produce units. He had 4 lings until his third was getting up, you failed to punish this greediness. Also, cannons. WHY so many cannons. You need 1 at each base max for detection, and even then you had obs, that you stopped making. That second third, and fourth cannon at natural could have been gateways, allowing you to push and punish how greedy the zerg was (at that time he had around 14 roaches i believe and like 2 lings). You allowed the zerg to just drone up without worries. This leads to my final notice in the replay. SCOUTING. You had a robo, why not delay collosi a bit for some obs, so you can see what the enemy is doing. Generally, you only get one engagement with collosi before corruptors start coming up, so unless you win in that engagement you need to be very wary about making more collosi. The zerg also out microd you, it seems to me like either you were having a bad game, or that guy belongs in an MMR category above you. | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
On September 06 2011 13:41 AirbladeOrange wrote: I just played a PvP on Antiga Shipyard and got beat by a proxy 2 gate. I scouted after my gate on 12 and got to his base last. He built the gates in the middle of the map so I could have had a chance if I scouted there but it seems like there are usually decent places to hide gates on bigger maps. I don't want to have my scouting probe go everywhere before I head into his base. I feel like it's kind of a game of chance where if I scout him early I will most likely win the game but if I scout last I will most likely lose. I will probably start scouting the middle where the tower is now as I can't think of a way to hold it off if I scout it too late. Has anyone else found a better way to deal with this? dont think of scouting where the proxy is. If the base doesn't have the initial gateways/pylon, just know your getting either cannon rushed or proxy two gated. Use your probe to find it while defending. Also, if your really afraid, scout after the 9 pylon. I do this specifically because i'm afraid of cheese. | ||
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Asmodeusz
193 Posts
On September 06 2011 14:04 darklight54321 wrote: dont think of scouting where the proxy is. If the base doesn't have the initial gateways/pylon, just know your getting either cannon rushed or proxy two gated. Use your probe to find it while defending. Also, if your really afraid, scout after the 9 pylon. I do this specifically because i'm afraid of cheese. By the time you scout him if he's at third base you check, he's gonna have zealots heading your base and you're gonna be mining gas. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
On September 06 2011 14:09 Asmodeusz wrote: By the time you scout him if he's at third base you check, he's gonna have zealots heading your base and you're gonna be mining gas. Yeah this is my problem. I scouted him right as zealots were running into my base. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
nvm | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 06 2011 14:13 AirbladeOrange wrote: Yeah this is my problem. I scouted him right as zealots were running into my base. For this reason, I always check the tower while scouting, for one thing, you might get lucky and see where his scouting probe is coming from (save you scouting time), and another, you never know what you'll find. On big 4 player maps, proxy rushes like that almost always go in the middle because they need to go down before they really have time to scout your location, and if they guess wrong, they probably lose. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
Replay: http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/Pvtmarinetankallin.SC2Replay | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 06 2011 16:11 Mitchlew wrote: Am having so much trouble close positions PvT with marine tank all ins. I don't have any idea how to stop. Immortals seem useless due to so many marines. I dunno what to do. Any tips? Replay: http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/Pvtmarinetankallin.SC2Replay That sounds like kind of a 1-1-1 in which case this guide might help. Other than that, zealot sentry should deal very well with this composition, both for the guardian shield and forcefields to prevent kiting. Stalkers could be used to kite him from his base to yours dealing quite some damage. As for tech I don't think immortals are necessary but if you think you have time to get them that's a good idea. Use them to either tank some tank shots or if you want the for dps, send them in after the zealots to help them not being focus fired by the marines. Phoenixes (watch out for the marines with this one though) and colossi would also be effective and if you have time, charge and/or armor upgrades. | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
On September 06 2011 15:09 Whitewing wrote: For this reason, I always check the tower while scouting, for one thing, you might get lucky and see where his scouting probe is coming from (save you scouting time), and another, you never know what you'll find. On big 4 player maps, proxy rushes like that almost always go in the middle because they need to go down before they really have time to scout your location, and if they guess wrong, they probably lose. This, adjust scouting for the map, most maps you'll reach in time, but on the larger, just drop by the towers. On Tal go in this order, 9 scout, your base, nearest xel, second base second xel, third base third xel, fourth xel, fourth base. No matter what though, if you scout it last, it's even tough to defend, thats the nature of this build and why it's so effective. You can also Passively scout, they have to find you, so see when your probe is coming in, if you 9 scout and their probe is in before you get to first base or before you get to second base. Generally, people scout the close by ground base first so that can hep too. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
Mid high diamond. | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:33 Corsica wrote: How to punish fast expanding zerg ? Im talking 15 hatch. Now every zerg goes 14gas14pool but how can i finish the game quickly if they go hatch first. Mid high diamond. Cannon rush or this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254510 or expand yourself ( I don't like that ) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:33 Corsica wrote: How to punish fast expanding zerg ? Im talking 15 hatch. Now every zerg goes 14gas14pool but how can i finish the game quickly if they go hatch first. Mid high diamond. You should definitely try this: | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
So is the proper way to do it basically just chrono out 2 stalkers and then sentries into a 3 gate expo? Thanks. I'm a masters players so I should know this LOOL. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On September 07 2011 06:22 xlava wrote: I have a quick PvZ question about the 2 stalker rush. I've always been doing this if I scout stuff like hatch first, with no gas obviously, but I don't know if I've been doing it correctly. Additionally, it IS okay to do this rush versus a Zerg that goes hatch first because of the late gas right? You can kite slow lings all day with stalkers. So is the proper way to do it basically just chrono out 2 stalkers and then sentries into a 3 gate expo? Thanks. I'm a masters players so I should know this LOOL. I think the video answered all that. If you can harass long enough with 2 Stalkers before speed finishes, do the opening. It's best on maps where a single Spine cannot shut you down at the Natural, and it's best to get there before the spine finishes with a Zealot on maps like this. Usually you can just get the Nexus, then order a couple units out of your 2 Gateways while WG finishes, lay down third Gate, then warp in stuff once WG is researched. I usually place the third Gate + Forge at my natural. Also it doesn't really matter if you are in Master's League or not. It's my opinion that the grand majority of Master league players are pretty terrible players. But that's just my opinion ^_^ | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Also, in cecil's guide he mentions that in "lategame" pvp he usually adds storm or void rays when going for blink/chargelot builds. My (silly) question is, when is exactly lategame pvp? When a third gets saturated, or even later? Thanks a lot! | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
 I still suck though so I'm sure I will have more questions in the very near future! | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 07 2011 07:31 Teoita wrote: A couple questions regarding pvp...assuming it goes to the midgame (we both take our nex around the same time), i really don't know what exactly should i look for scouting-wise. While in zvz timing attacks tend to be fairly clear, when i play pvp i don't really know what to look for in my opponent's base to trigger me to attack, take a third and whatnot. Are there any particular signs to check for (assuming it's either colossus wars, colossus vs twilight, or twilight mirror)? Also, in cecil's guide he mentions that in "lategame" pvp he usually adds storm or void rays when going for blink/chargelot builds. My (silly) question is, when is exactly lategame pvp? When a third gets saturated, or even later? Thanks a lot! What you want to scout for is anything that leaves your opponent vulnerable. For example if both players are massing colossi and he decides to begin getting void rays, that might be a good time to attack. Or if he takes a third this will also allow you to be ahead in army supply. You can also create your own timings and attack with them. If it's colossi vs twilight I suggest you turtle a lot because his army will grow faster and colossi gets better the more you have. PvP lategame is... Probably around the time the third base goes up. Even so that doesn't happen very often. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On September 07 2011 06:34 CecilSunkure wrote: I think the video answered all that. If you can harass long enough with 2 Stalkers before speed finishes, do the opening. It's best on maps where a single Spine cannot shut you down at the Natural, and it's best to get there before the spine finishes with a Zealot on maps like this. Usually you can just get the Nexus, then order a couple units out of your 2 Gateways while WG finishes, lay down third Gate, then warp in stuff once WG is researched. I usually place the third Gate + Forge at my natural. Also it doesn't really matter if you are in Master's League or not. It's my opinion that the grand majority of Master league players are pretty terrible players. But that's just my opinion ^_^ lol ty I didn't see the video. But you are right on both fronts Most masters players are crap. | ||
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