EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 46
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 05 2011 03:47 Joseph123 wrote: I need help in PvZ lategame. What should I do when I see broodlords? Depends on how heavily they are committing to brood lords. If there are only a few, blink stalkers are a good call. If they're making a bunch of them, throw down some stargates if you don't have them already and pump void rays. The most important thing when it comes to beating brood lords is to be prepared and not caught off guard for them. One thing I like to do after I scout the spire is keep checking it occasionally (hallucination is great for this!) to see if it is becoming a greater spire or not. The moment I see a greater spire, I get ready for the broods. If they surprise you, you're dead frankly. If he's got infestors with the broods (he probably will), you'll need some high templar for the engagement to feedback (try to see if you can sneak an observer in if he doesn't have an overseer to watch the fight and set up a good engagement). Brood lords go down easily if they don't have support. | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On September 05 2011 03:56 Whitewing wrote: Depends on how heavily they are committing to brood lords. If there are only a few, blink stalkers are a good call. If they're making a bunch of them, throw down some stargates if you don't have them already and pump void rays. The most important thing when it comes to beating brood lords is to be prepared and not caught off guard for them. One thing I like to do after I scout the spire is keep checking it occasionally (hallucination is great for this!) to see if it is becoming a greater spire or not. The moment I see a greater spire, I get ready for the broods. If they surprise you, you're dead frankly. If he's got infestors with the broods (he probably will), you'll need some high templar for the engagement to feedback (try to see if you can sneak an observer in if he doesn't have an overseer to watch the fight and set up a good engagement). Brood lords go down easily if they don't have support. Yes I'm talking about 10-15 broodlords + support from corruptor, infestor, roach.. Hmm I agree that if you scout for his hive and see when is starting broodlords you can react accordingly with void rays, but I still don't understand is there any way to beat this army mix.. I like to play long games when I don't feel the pressure to attack my opponent at any time, but this just doesn't work vs this army comp.. So basically you are telling me that when i see hive there is a cooldown timer and if I don't attack him soon I'll just die. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On September 05 2011 02:28 Archontas wrote: vT: One of the many variations of 1 Gate -> Expo -> 2 more Gates -> Robo (or more gates) MC example in the VODs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=261214 vP: One of the defensive 3 Gate builds into Robo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772 vZ: @ 1 hr, 5 minutes of the following video: Good luck! I actually neede buildorders, a list. Ty | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 05 2011 04:08 Joseph123 wrote: Yes I'm talking about 10-15 broodlords + support from corruptor, infestor, roach.. Hmm I agree that if you scout for his hive and see when is starting broodlords you can react accordingly with void rays, but I still don't understand is there any way to beat this army mix.. I like to play long games when I don't feel the pressure to attack my opponent at any time, but this just doesn't work vs this army comp.. So basically you are telling me that when i see hive there is a cooldown timer and if I don't attack him soon I'll just die. No you just have to scout it... 15 broods is a LOT of supply which will cut into the rest of his army. And if you have like 10 void rays that is a lot of his units that cannot attack a lot of your units. Just make sure you spread them so they won't die to fungal and you should be good to go. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On September 05 2011 04:29 ToastieNL wrote: I actually neede buildorders, a list. Ty Those threads either list or have links to build orders. I haven't seen a full write-up of a 2 Gate Stargate build order yet. Edit: If you find a good one or come up with your own, post it here, I'd love to see one. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 05 2011 04:08 Joseph123 wrote: Yes I'm talking about 10-15 broodlords + support from corruptor, infestor, roach.. Hmm I agree that if you scout for his hive and see when is starting broodlords you can react accordingly with void rays, but I still don't understand is there any way to beat this army mix.. I like to play long games when I don't feel the pressure to attack my opponent at any time, but this just doesn't work vs this army comp.. So basically you are telling me that when i see hive there is a cooldown timer and if I don't attack him soon I'll just die. No no, you don't have to attack him with the voids, you just use the voids to kill the brood lords during the battle. If he surprises you when you don't have voids or an absolute shit ton of blink stalkers and high templar, you will just lose your whole army and a base or two before you can get a response out. The voids are just to be a part of your army to kill the brood lords once you engage. And definitely make sure to spread your void rays out during the fight (they tend to clump) so that fungals can't hit them all. Also, having a few archons is great too, they kill the broodlings pretty quick and tank a lot of damage, allowing the rest of your army (which is fairly fragile) to deal damage. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
On September 05 2011 05:10 Whitewing wrote: No no, you don't have to attack him with the voids, you just use the voids to kill the brood lords during the battle. If he surprises you when you don't have voids or an absolute shit ton of blink stalkers and high templar, you will just lose your whole army and a base or two before you can get a response out. The voids are just to be a part of your army to kill the brood lords once you engage. And definitely make sure to spread your void rays out during the fight (they tend to clump) so that fungals can't hit them all. Also, having a few archons is great too, they kill the broodlings pretty quick and tank a lot of damage, allowing the rest of your army (which is fairly fragile) to deal damage. Yeah my rule of thumb is that if you dont have stargates, you need to drop 2 when securing your 4th on a map which is easy to take said 4th or a 3rd if the map makes it hard to take a 3rd - assuming you are macroing fairly well and have base timing down. Otherwise I would suggest a stargate opening so that you get early map control of the air and can always have the option of getting void rays as they start to make broodlords. | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On September 04 2011 04:14 CecilSunkure wrote: This is bad advice. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. And to answer Ondik, no you don't lose. If it's bad advice, can you tell me why it's bad and, more importantly, what should I do against mech then (once again - mostly tanks+BFH). And by saying "no you don't lose" you mean you can defend 111 (banshee only, no raven) just with WG units? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 05 2011 05:20 ZeromuS wrote: Yeah my rule of thumb is that if you dont have stargates, you need to drop 2 when securing your 4th on a map which is easy to take said 4th or a 3rd if the map makes it hard to take a 3rd - assuming you are macroing fairly well and have base timing down. Otherwise I would suggest a stargate opening so that you get early map control of the air and can always have the option of getting void rays as they start to make broodlords. From my experience you don't need to use voidrays against broodlords. Immortal stalker high templar with a few sentries/archons deal with them just fine, but not maybe as effectively as void rays. This army composition is easier to get up and running than a deathball though. Just another thought I had: Void rays are easily accessible from a forge FE as you want to pressure zerg somehow while it's easier to get immortals from a 3gate expand or similar. | ||
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Omeze
United States11 Posts
high gold/low plat | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 05 2011 05:40 Latedi wrote: From my experience you don't need to use voidrays against broodlords. Immortal stalker high templar with a few sentries/archons deal with them just fine, but not maybe as effectively as void rays. This army composition is easier to get up and running than a deathball though. Just another thought I had: Void rays are easily accessible from a forge FE as you want to pressure zerg somehow while it's easier to get immortals from a 3gate expand or similar. It really depends on the composition of the zerg army and how many brood lords they made. If they have a bunch of infestors underneath and are controlling well, spread out void rays will do a lot better than stalkers/high templar/archon/immortals which can't even get close. If you blink your stalkers under them, your stalkers get fungal'd to death quite quickly while the brood lords just run. Yeah, you kill a few, but you lose all your stalkers and there are some left after. Void rays aren't a requirement, but in my experience, they are the most effective way to kill a bunch of broods. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 05 2011 06:11 Omeze wrote: What should you do against muta play when the Z gets heavy speedlings in the early-midgame timeframe for map control? I keep losing to 2 and 3 base mutas since i just don't know how to respond, event houghI scout w/ hallu sentries high gold/low plat The best thing to do against a zerg going for mutas is to attack with a 6 gate at the appropriate timing: a zerg saving up for mutas won't be able to hold it and will probably just die. If the mutas come later, get blink out, put down some cannons, get a few archons, and you'll be set until you move out. If he's really massing them up, throw down some stargates and pump some phoenix, or get storm. | ||
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
whether its ling infestor or roach ling infestor, im just having troubles. if i go blink/colossus, i can blink a portion of the stalkers and try to get the infestors, but i feel like they just fungal and run cause there's alot of them.. if i go zealot/archon/hightemplar, i honestly dont know whats better feedback or psi storm.. its almost as if the only way to deal with infestors would be to have an obs over the army and micro a few high temps out ahead and feedback then engage... | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
On September 05 2011 13:09 ePBuckets wrote: im having some troubles with infestors.. whether its ling infestor or roach ling infestor, im just having troubles. if i go blink/colossus, i can blink a portion of the stalkers and try to get the infestors, but i feel like they just fungal and run cause there's alot of them.. if i go zealot/archon/hightemplar, i honestly dont know whats better feedback or psi storm.. its almost as if the only way to deal with infestors would be to have an obs over the army and micro a few high temps out ahead and feedback then engage... Infestors are really good at controlling space. In my experience I have found its a lot easier to have a decent number of collossi to help deal damage while you try to flank with pheonixes to lift the infestors who NP. It may just be me but I find that unless the Z lets their infestors get ahead of the rest of their army I can almost never get good enough feedbacks to make the HTs really worth having with regards to the feedback. Some HTs are good but I dont like relying on them as if they get fungalled they become almost useless at that point. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 05 2011 06:11 Whitewing wrote: It really depends on the composition of the zerg army and how many brood lords they made. If they have a bunch of infestors underneath and are controlling well, spread out void rays will do a lot better than stalkers/high templar/archon/immortals which can't even get close. If you blink your stalkers under them, your stalkers get fungal'd to death quite quickly while the brood lords just run. Yeah, you kill a few, but you lose all your stalkers and there are some left after. Void rays aren't a requirement, but in my experience, they are the most effective way to kill a bunch of broods. Yes I do think voidrays are more effective but that is however not how you should approach the confrontation with immortal stalker high templar. What you do is you push forward using the archons to kill broodlings so that they can't block until you are in range of the broodlords so you can shoot/storm them. At the same time you feedback any infestors trying to fungal you. Immortals should be taking care of the roaches fast enough for them not to be a problem. On September 05 2011 06:24 Whitewing wrote: The best thing to do against a zerg going for mutas is to attack with a 6 gate at the appropriate timing: a zerg saving up for mutas won't be able to hold it and will probably just die. If the mutas come later, get blink out, put down some cannons, get a few archons, and you'll be set until you move out. If he's really massing them up, throw down some stargates and pump some phoenix, or get storm. For the 6gate to work you need to research hallucination asap or scout in in some other way so this one is a bit unreliable. Blink into HT tech + canons is about the best you can do as throwing down 2 stargates will not let you get enough phoenixes as his muta number will be rising a lot faster if the zerg is on 3 bases. It's fine if you already have some air units though as it will let you engage and keep the mutas away the instant you see them. It's a bit heavy on the multitasking as you have to dance with the mutas until they are all dead or return to the safety of queens/spores. A good thing to do if someone is really massing them is to get a ton of canons at every base (most likely 2 bases), warp in some zealots as they are good at killing zerglings, and then go for a base trade with stalker zealot archon high templar. This combined with an upgrade or two is as good as unstoppable for zerg. The canons will more or less force the mutas to engage your army. On September 05 2011 14:13 ZeromuS wrote: Infestors are really good at controlling space. In my experience I have found its a lot easier to have a decent number of collossi to help deal damage while you try to flank with pheonixes to lift the infestors who NP. It may just be me but I find that unless the Z lets their infestors get ahead of the rest of their army I can almost never get good enough feedbacks to make the HTs really worth having with regards to the feedback. Some HTs are good but I dont like relying on them as if they get fungalled they become almost useless at that point. The use of phoenixes against infestors is very intresting and I don't feel anyone has tried it enough yet. It could be incredibly effective but I also think there's a risk of them all getting fungal'd to death. As for infestors staying in the back of the army, that should mean they can't either throw great fungal growths and as such your HTs doesn't need to feedback them. Throw some storms instead, they are strong  Just save a little energy for feedbacks if the infestors come closer.And a response to ePBuckets: If you want to blink and kill infestors you have to do it in such a way that the stalkers won't just instantly die because of the other zerg units. For example you can set up a flank if the zerg is pushing you or you can wait with the offensive blink until you have thinned out the roach ling numbers. Most of the time this means kiting, throwing down a lot of forcefields and using blink defensively. If you chose to get templar tech it's a good idea to throw down a few storms and feedback as well, you should have enough HTs for this if you are on two or more bases, especially as you get zealots as your main force. If your opponent goes infestor ling you have basically won the game already, just throw down some storms when he engages and all the lings will evaporate, which then let's you chase down and kill the infestors (be careful of chain fungals) and ultimately destroy his bases. If it's against roach ling infestor however storm will not be as effective, but nontheless if your zealot/archon army can surround the roaches while you storm them, they will die fast. The micro you are talking about with observers and HTs is great, if you get the chance to do it I think you should go for it. It's basically the same as HTs vs ghosts. | ||
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Docta Spaceman
United States74 Posts
http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767 Here is the build order I jotted down, in case you're wondering: + Show Spoiler + chrono probes on 9 10 pylon 10 gateway 11 gas 15 core 16 pylon 18 stalker and Wg research, chrono on both 21 Gas 21 Robo 22 zealot 24 pylon 25 sentry 27 immortal- chrono 31 gateway 31 pylon 31 immortal Build is meant to counter warp gate pressure and lead nicely into any follow up you'd like with a solid backbone of immortals and stalkers. I took this on the ladder, and was promptly 2 gate zealot rushed. Multiple times. I don't think this build has any way to stop that. Because of that, is this build not usable? And any advice for a lower level (platinum) protoss player struggling to get a grasp on PvP? | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:10 Docta Spaceman wrote: I'm having some massive problems dealing with PvP. I'm feeling pretty lost. I recently tried a build from Day[9]'s steal this build series, the one titled Tyler's PvP: http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767 Here is the build order I jotted down, in case you're wondering: + Show Spoiler + chrono probes on 9 10 pylon 10 gateway 11 gas 15 core 16 pylon 18 stalker and Wg research, chrono on both 21 Gas 21 Robo 22 zealot 24 pylon 25 sentry 27 immortal- chrono 31 gateway 31 pylon 31 immortal Build is meant to counter warp gate pressure and lead nicely into any follow up you'd like with a solid backbone of immortals and stalkers. I took this on the ladder, and was promptly 2 gate zealot rushed. Multiple times. I don't think this build has any way to stop that. Because of that, is this build not usable? And any advice for a lower level (platinum) protoss player struggling to get a grasp on PvP? If you scout a 2 gate pressure immediately 2 gate yourself. Drop whatever build you were planning to do and pump chronoed zealots while still producing probes and teching if possible. You'll be ahead in every possible aspect. The power of the 2 gate relies on the element of surprise. If it is undone than it is easy to stop. But you have to react properly. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
With respect to that build, I think this is a better version since it is less transparent. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 | ||
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Ranir
413 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:10 Docta Spaceman wrote: I'm having some massive problems dealing with PvP. I'm feeling pretty lost. I recently tried a build from Day[9]'s steal this build series, the one titled Tyler's PvP: http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767 Here is the build order I jotted down, in case you're wondering: + Show Spoiler + chrono probes on 9 10 pylon 10 gateway 11 gas 15 core 16 pylon 18 stalker and Wg research, chrono on both 21 Gas 21 Robo 22 zealot 24 pylon 25 sentry 27 immortal- chrono 31 gateway 31 pylon 31 immortal Build is meant to counter warp gate pressure and lead nicely into any follow up you'd like with a solid backbone of immortals and stalkers. I took this on the ladder, and was promptly 2 gate zealot rushed. Multiple times. I don't think this build has any way to stop that. Because of that, is this build not usable? And any advice for a lower level (platinum) protoss player struggling to get a grasp on PvP? They just randomly 2gate you pretty much and your build should be fine to deal with it since youre getting an early gate and can add a second one. You just got unlucky I guess since most of the time a protoss that decides to go 2g haven't scout his opponent. | ||
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