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On March 08 2012 08:33 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 12:54 NrGmonk wrote:On March 07 2012 07:25 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 07:23 Latedi wrote:On March 07 2012 07:17 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 06:55 recklessfire wrote:On March 07 2012 06:42 Vinter2 wrote:
PvT - If u open 1g expand at 30, cut probes, throw down 2 gateways.. u scouted a techlab or a reactor on a rax and some mauraders. What next, gas + robo and get stalkers/sentrys and a late immortal? U wont have an immortal when the 2rax hit. Will u have it when a 3rax hits, probably not if u cant delay it with forcefields?
So what should u do? What unit composition should u have when he attacks with mm+stim+concussive shells? I think your referring to MC's 1 gate expand, and if you executed the build correctly you will have enough to kill the 2 rax w/o any robo units. Before you even warp in with all 3 gates you will have a single zealot with 4 stalkers and then adding 3 more gateway units from the first warp in, you will have more than enough to deal with the two rax without the need of an immortal. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 MC's 1 gate expo. This is pretty standard against any terran who opens with a single gas. This build is so solid =) 1gate expand dies to a properly executed 2 rax reactor first though. Its the only kind of 2 rax pressure a 1 gate expand can't hold efficiently. Just making sure thats clear. It's not instantly a loss if you play it out well. No but its a BO counter. You're behind because you should never hold the nexus. Yea, this is wrong. I can name at least 4 variations of 1 gate fe designed to hold 2 rax. MC's is the most stable, kcdc's holds with good control/decision making and the 2 gas one should hold, but I've never tried it so I can't back that up with confidence. Also, there's a new 1 gate fe which is designed to hold 2 rax by chronoboosting warpgates. Sigh... nobody reads things anymore... A 1 gate expand consists of the following according to me. If my idea of a 1 gate expand is different than MC's than say so right now because then you are probably right. However: My 1 gate expand is 13gate 14 gas 3 chronos on nexus, 2 chronos on gateway, none on warp gate. I chrono out 1 zealot and 2-3 stalkers, expand on 29 food. This variation does not hold a 2 rax reactor first. It does hold 2 rax tech lab first. Idk how someone can just say 1 gate expand holds all 2 rax because that is not true. Also note that a 2 rax reactor first can have variations in and of itself. I'm not saying that 1 gate expand always loses to it, but if the Terran brings a few SCVs, bunkers up, it is extremely difficult to hold, neigh impossible to hold the nexus. Its hard to hold a nexus with a 3 gate expand against this rush, so I have no idea why people are saying differently. Plus, if Terran decides to pull all his SCVs you might just flat out die. Actually, you will flat out die if you 1 gate expanded. Pulling probes is a decent idea, but against 5 marines and 2 marauders + scvs, you're going to lose some. So maybe you might hold the nexus, but if Terran expanded behind it (which decent Terrans should do), you're even at the very best. Btw as if it means anything I'm high masters, so maybe we're just talking about different things since relatively speaking I'm not that bad... EDIT: My post isn't meant to be flame inciting, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this just like all of you. We're all on the same team here don't forget that 
If you would spend 2 chronoboosts on your warpgate then you would hold the 2 rax. I am sure we all do it differently, but I put down my nexus with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and 22 probes. (3 chronos on nexus, 1 on gateway and then 2 on core). I add 2 more gates and then add the third stalker. I wont go into the build after that as it varies depending on scouting. But when the 2 rax hits I have 1 zealot and 3 stalkers and my gateways are morphing. Warp in 3 more stalkers while he takes the shield off of the nexus and then engage with my 7 units.
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On March 08 2012 08:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 08:33 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 12:54 NrGmonk wrote:On March 07 2012 07:25 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 07:23 Latedi wrote:On March 07 2012 07:17 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 06:55 recklessfire wrote:On March 07 2012 06:42 Vinter2 wrote:
PvT - If u open 1g expand at 30, cut probes, throw down 2 gateways.. u scouted a techlab or a reactor on a rax and some mauraders. What next, gas + robo and get stalkers/sentrys and a late immortal? U wont have an immortal when the 2rax hit. Will u have it when a 3rax hits, probably not if u cant delay it with forcefields?
So what should u do? What unit composition should u have when he attacks with mm+stim+concussive shells? I think your referring to MC's 1 gate expand, and if you executed the build correctly you will have enough to kill the 2 rax w/o any robo units. Before you even warp in with all 3 gates you will have a single zealot with 4 stalkers and then adding 3 more gateway units from the first warp in, you will have more than enough to deal with the two rax without the need of an immortal. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 MC's 1 gate expo. This is pretty standard against any terran who opens with a single gas. This build is so solid =) 1gate expand dies to a properly executed 2 rax reactor first though. Its the only kind of 2 rax pressure a 1 gate expand can't hold efficiently. Just making sure thats clear. It's not instantly a loss if you play it out well. No but its a BO counter. You're behind because you should never hold the nexus. Yea, this is wrong. I can name at least 4 variations of 1 gate fe designed to hold 2 rax. MC's is the most stable, kcdc's holds with good control/decision making and the 2 gas one should hold, but I've never tried it so I can't back that up with confidence. Also, there's a new 1 gate fe which is designed to hold 2 rax by chronoboosting warpgates. Sigh... nobody reads things anymore... A 1 gate expand consists of the following according to me. If my idea of a 1 gate expand is different than MC's than say so right now because then you are probably right. However: My 1 gate expand is 13gate 14 gas 3 chronos on nexus, 2 chronos on gateway, none on warp gate. I chrono out 1 zealot and 2-3 stalkers, expand on 29 food. This variation does not hold a 2 rax reactor first. It does hold 2 rax tech lab first. Idk how someone can just say 1 gate expand holds all 2 rax because that is not true. Also note that a 2 rax reactor first can have variations in and of itself. I'm not saying that 1 gate expand always loses to it, but if the Terran brings a few SCVs, bunkers up, it is extremely difficult to hold, neigh impossible to hold the nexus. Its hard to hold a nexus with a 3 gate expand against this rush, so I have no idea why people are saying differently. Plus, if Terran decides to pull all his SCVs you might just flat out die. Actually, you will flat out die if you 1 gate expanded. Pulling probes is a decent idea, but against 5 marines and 2 marauders + scvs, you're going to lose some. So maybe you might hold the nexus, but if Terran expanded behind it (which decent Terrans should do), you're even at the very best. Btw as if it means anything I'm high masters, so maybe we're just talking about different things since relatively speaking I'm not that bad... The 1 gate fe you described is MC's except for 3 cb on nexus and expanding on 29-30 food, so pretty much the same. You pull probes if your opponent brings 2+ scvs. You forget the nexus and ff your ramp if your opponent brings all his scvs. Standard 3 gate relies on sentries to defend while 1 gate expand relies on zealots+stalkers, so they're completely different. I've never not held a 2 rax unless I made a huge mistake. You shouldn't be so adamant that you're right just because of your own experiences with 1 gate fe.
Eh... I dunno. I feel like its very cost inefficient at the least, and a loss at the worst to deflect a properly done 2 rax reactor first with 1 gate expand. Yeah it relies on zealots and stalkers, I realize that, but against a Terran who knows how to micro I don't like trying to counter so many units with so few and probes. Just not my style, but you make good points.
On March 08 2012 11:27 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 08:33 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 12:54 NrGmonk wrote:On March 07 2012 07:25 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 07:23 Latedi wrote:On March 07 2012 07:17 xlava wrote:On March 07 2012 06:55 recklessfire wrote:On March 07 2012 06:42 Vinter2 wrote:
PvT - If u open 1g expand at 30, cut probes, throw down 2 gateways.. u scouted a techlab or a reactor on a rax and some mauraders. What next, gas + robo and get stalkers/sentrys and a late immortal? U wont have an immortal when the 2rax hit. Will u have it when a 3rax hits, probably not if u cant delay it with forcefields?
So what should u do? What unit composition should u have when he attacks with mm+stim+concussive shells? I think your referring to MC's 1 gate expand, and if you executed the build correctly you will have enough to kill the 2 rax w/o any robo units. Before you even warp in with all 3 gates you will have a single zealot with 4 stalkers and then adding 3 more gateway units from the first warp in, you will have more than enough to deal with the two rax without the need of an immortal. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 MC's 1 gate expo. This is pretty standard against any terran who opens with a single gas. This build is so solid =) 1gate expand dies to a properly executed 2 rax reactor first though. Its the only kind of 2 rax pressure a 1 gate expand can't hold efficiently. Just making sure thats clear. It's not instantly a loss if you play it out well. No but its a BO counter. You're behind because you should never hold the nexus. Yea, this is wrong. I can name at least 4 variations of 1 gate fe designed to hold 2 rax. MC's is the most stable, kcdc's holds with good control/decision making and the 2 gas one should hold, but I've never tried it so I can't back that up with confidence. Also, there's a new 1 gate fe which is designed to hold 2 rax by chronoboosting warpgates. Sigh... nobody reads things anymore... A 1 gate expand consists of the following according to me. If my idea of a 1 gate expand is different than MC's than say so right now because then you are probably right. However: My 1 gate expand is 13gate 14 gas 3 chronos on nexus, 2 chronos on gateway, none on warp gate. I chrono out 1 zealot and 2-3 stalkers, expand on 29 food. This variation does not hold a 2 rax reactor first. It does hold 2 rax tech lab first. Idk how someone can just say 1 gate expand holds all 2 rax because that is not true. Also note that a 2 rax reactor first can have variations in and of itself. I'm not saying that 1 gate expand always loses to it, but if the Terran brings a few SCVs, bunkers up, it is extremely difficult to hold, neigh impossible to hold the nexus. Its hard to hold a nexus with a 3 gate expand against this rush, so I have no idea why people are saying differently. Plus, if Terran decides to pull all his SCVs you might just flat out die. Actually, you will flat out die if you 1 gate expanded. Pulling probes is a decent idea, but against 5 marines and 2 marauders + scvs, you're going to lose some. So maybe you might hold the nexus, but if Terran expanded behind it (which decent Terrans should do), you're even at the very best. Btw as if it means anything I'm high masters, so maybe we're just talking about different things since relatively speaking I'm not that bad... EDIT: My post isn't meant to be flame inciting, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this just like all of you. We're all on the same team here don't forget that If you would spend 2 chronoboosts on your warpgate then you would hold the 2 rax. I am sure we all do it differently, but I put down my nexus with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and 22 probes. (3 chronos on nexus, 1 on gateway and then 2 on core). I add 2 more gates and then add the third stalker. I wont go into the build after that as it varies depending on scouting. But when the 2 rax hits I have 1 zealot and 3 stalkers and my gateways are morphing. Warp in 3 more stalkers while he takes the shield off of the nexus and then engage with my 7 units.
I had not considered this, but I like it a lot. Thanks for sharing.
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Sorry on hindsight it might be 3 chrono on nexus, 1 on gateway and then 3 on core. I havent mapped it out, I have just done it enough times to be automatic now. But the point still stands: 5th chrono onwards goes on core and it finishes in time for their 2 marauder reactor first 2 rax to arrive.
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Back to the talk about MC:s 1g expand vs T and incoming 3 rax, how do you hold it? Someone said get forcefields and a forth gate. Can u share some more specifics, even a replay with a well executed 3rax? The replays i've found have been sloppy from the terran part.
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On March 08 2012 19:19 Vinter2 wrote:
Back to the talk about MC:s 1g expand vs T and incoming 3 rax, how do you hold it? Someone said get forcefields and a forth gate. Can u share some more specifics, even a replay with a well executed 3rax? The replays i've found have been sloppy from the terran part.
I'm sorry but no one is 3raxing anymore, I met it once like a week ago but I don't see it more than that.
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On March 08 2012 19:37 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:19 Vinter2 wrote:
Back to the talk about MC:s 1g expand vs T and incoming 3 rax, how do you hold it? Someone said get forcefields and a forth gate. Can u share some more specifics, even a replay with a well executed 3rax? The replays i've found have been sloppy from the terran part. I'm sorry but no one is 3raxing anymore, I met it once like a week ago but I don't see it more than that.
How is that an answere to my question? If I didnt want an answere for my question I wouldnt post it, would I?
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On March 08 2012 23:46 Vinter2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:37 Latedi wrote:On March 08 2012 19:19 Vinter2 wrote:
Back to the talk about MC:s 1g expand vs T and incoming 3 rax, how do you hold it? Someone said get forcefields and a forth gate. Can u share some more specifics, even a replay with a well executed 3rax? The replays i've found have been sloppy from the terran part. I'm sorry but no one is 3raxing anymore, I met it once like a week ago but I don't see it more than that. How is that an answere to my question? If I didnt want an answere for my question I wouldnt post it, would I?
Come on stop whining, I already gave you a lot of tips on how to defend. I cannot get you a replay and I told you so.
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I think for 3-rax stim all-in (i'm assuming) you'd have to run back up your ramp and turtle while rushing colossus. I don't think it's viable to keep your natural. Assuming you run your probes back when you push out with your colossi and retake your natural you should be able to have a slightly better economy than Terran.
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On March 09 2012 04:39 mizU wrote:
I think for 3-rax stim all-in (i'm assuming) you'd have to run back up your ramp and turtle while rushing colossus. I don't think it's viable to keep your natural. Assuming you run your probes back when you push out with your colossi and retake your natural you should be able to have a slightly better economy than Terran.
You could hold it in beta, you can hold it now.
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In PvZ if I am going for a 7 gate +2 blink timing which I like to do on korhal with the hard third against roach ling aggression, what should my natural gas timings be...also if my opponent is going for 2 base infestor ling into double expand am I just screwed? should I just try and take a third playing defensive forcefielding out lings until I can get colossi out, should I go double robo once on three bases?
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I have been getting destroyed PvZ, silver league, and mainly because the zerg can just keep denying my third. Is there any way to get to 3 base easily and defend your third without sacrificing anything at my natural? Also, what should my go-to PvZ build be? I normall FFE into a 3gates and a robo, then throw down robo bay and an expo, then i generally go to colossi+stalkers+sentries. Any tips?
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On March 09 2012 08:28 ThePianoDentist wrote:
In PvZ if I am going for a 7 gate +2 blink timing which I like to do on korhal with the hard third against roach ling aggression, what should my natural gas timings be...also if my opponent is going for 2 base infestor ling into double expand am I just screwed? should I just try and take a third playing defensive forcefielding out lings until I can get colossi out, should I go double robo once on three bases?
Hmm well, personally I don't believe the map is too different from any other, just to get that out of the way.
Here's a pretty good guide on the mass blink stalker all in/timing http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230
From my experience on this map, to take a third, make sure you have good sim cities. You really need to be able to cover your natural with one zealot as well as walling of the third completely towards the fourth. You can then place your army at the ramp to your third to cover that path while still being in a good position if you are attacked. Keeping your watch tower can help spotting attacks but be aware that a zerg army can still sneak up on you at the sides.
On March 09 2012 09:29 Dranzogger wrote:
I have been getting destroyed PvZ, silver league, and mainly because the zerg can just keep denying my third. Is there any way to get to 3 base easily and defend your third without sacrificing anything at my natural? Also, what should my go-to PvZ build be? I normall FFE into a 3gates and a robo, then throw down robo bay and an expo, then i generally go to colossi+stalkers+sentries. Any tips?
Sacrificing anything at your natural how? If you build a good wall with structures and leave only one tile open, you can block it with a zealot. Combined with a couple of cannons it's near impossible for anything to get in before you can defend if your army is nearby. This is just a 400 mineral investment and you should be able to easily afford it if your third is going up.
As for your build, that could be changed. Forge FE is really good but it keeps you very passive, so you need to be a little aggressive afterwards to prevent zerg from getting 70+ drones really fast and kill you with endless waves of some random unit composition. The most popular builds right now are:
1. +1 attack 4gate, basically you warp in about 8 zealots from a proxy pylon and try to attack his third while getting tech at home like a robo, twilight council and 2/1 upgrades with a good amount of sentry stalker. There are many variations of this, for example you could transition into a blink stalker all in instead of you wish or attack a little later but with voidrays to back you up. Personally I take my third when I have 2 immortals with +2 and blink on the way. Also if you can't confirm the zerg's tech it might be a good idea to add a cannon to your mineral lines in case of mutas.
2. Getting a really fast stargate, make 1-3 voidrays or so (usually 1) and around 2-4 phoenixes. The voidray is meant to take map control first by killing nearby overlords. After that you can go for the zerg's third and see if you can do any damage. The phoenixes can scout the zerg's base to see what tech he's getting. While this is going on you are actually teching colossus and getting up maybe 5 gates or so. You want to try to force hydras with your air units and then kill them with the colossi you made. You can take a third either really fast behind the voidray, or a bit later when you have 1-2 colossi out.
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Could some one lend me a hand by telling me what I could have done better/improve with this game?
http://drop.sc/128888
I really don't know how to fight his army, the Terran opened Mech and after every engagement he got more and more Thors to the point where I couldn't fight him head on. He eventually maxed on Thor/BC and just demolished me. I tried and did manage to harass him a bit, but it didn't seem to phase him.
I did notice that I got my later game production late, but that's mostly because I have little experience playing on 4+ bases.
I'm starting to feel very discouraged with my play 
Mid level plat Protoss by the way...
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On March 09 2012 07:01 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:39 mizU wrote:
I think for 3-rax stim all-in (i'm assuming) you'd have to run back up your ramp and turtle while rushing colossus. I don't think it's viable to keep your natural. Assuming you run your probes back when you push out with your colossi and retake your natural you should be able to have a slightly better economy than Terran. You could hold it in beta, you can hold it now.
Replay? :o
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Would you say korean 4 gate all-inn with 4-5 pylons in his base is viable in PvP as of now? And in viable, im thinking as in what league would it work in? I'm sure it wouldn't in High M, GM etc.Or?
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United States8476 Posts
On March 09 2012 17:44 Restyle1337 wrote:
Would you say korean 4 gate all-inn with 4-5 pylons in his base is viable in PvP as of now? And in viable, im thinking as in what league would it work in? I'm sure it wouldn't in High M, GM etc.Or?
It's not viable at all if your opponent knows the correct response. So maybe high masters+.
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On March 09 2012 15:26 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 07:01 Latedi wrote:On March 09 2012 04:39 mizU wrote:
I think for 3-rax stim all-in (i'm assuming) you'd have to run back up your ramp and turtle while rushing colossus. I don't think it's viable to keep your natural. Assuming you run your probes back when you push out with your colossi and retake your natural you should be able to have a slightly better economy than Terran. You could hold it in beta, you can hold it now. Replay? :o
As I said, no one is 3raxing anymore because it's easily scouted and defended. If your attack fails the game is over. If you got an EU account, you could 3rax me though.
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is there anyway to spot the medivac drop easily??
and also if my opp 2 rax rush me and i have 3 gates,whats the ideal number of zlots and stalkers??
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1. I have not faced many 3raxes the latest 6 months or so
2. When I used to meet 6rax, i fended them off by pulling probes and get 4 gates when spotted him going one base with marauders
As not much has changed in the early game balance PvT, I conclude it's still possible to defend it while fast expanding.
At first the 1-1-1 was the "if you expand I will kill you build", developed to punish fast expands. Now a fast expand is pretty much required in order to survive. Just saying, expanding and then massing defense is usually better than not expanding.
On March 10 2012 00:00 justiceknight wrote:
is there anyway to spot the medivac drop easily??
and also if my opp 2 rax rush me and i have 3 gates,whats the ideal number of zlots and stalkers??
To spot medivacs you need either observers outside your base or above his army to see if he loads up. This is a bit risky though as you might miss it. Another solution is placing pylons and patrolling probes or zealots at drop paths. This usually spots the drop in time.
If you are being 2raxed I'd say you want maybe 3-4 stalkers and the rest zealots. Not completely sure on this one.
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EPT
