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On March 06 2012 06:18 ooopepper wrote:
Hello, TL!
I am having problems with this build I am practicing, mainly vs zerg. I do not currently have a replay to upload but I can tell you the build order. Basically, I go 10 pylon, 10 gate, and this allows me to build early stalkers for harass. What I've learned is that, if zerg expands(does not matter when), then I can harass until the 6 minute mark(speedlings). During harass, I do a 3gateway expand. After this, I get ran over from mass roaches. The zerg did not go roach bust, he just masses roaches.
I have to note that I have not been keeping up with the metagame lately. So any help would be appreciated!
you need to give us a replay. The timing of the roach push is important, if its right after your expanded then its a really aggressive roach push thats nearly all in and you need cannons, lots and lots of cannons. If its a 10 minute mass roach, then
1) you didnt scout it 2) wtf is your tech/upgrades at this point 3) how many sentries do you have 4) were you trying to take a 3rd base?
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thanks recklessfire, I just hate bringing all my probes to kill the pylons cause i feel i loose more than my opponents pylon + cannon in miningtime and probes. Plus I feel like i cannot kill his probe in my base without a stalker, and if i get a stalker up that means he has 3+ cannons up already.
here is a replay of the last loss, guess i should have pulled more probes?
http://www.2shared.com/file/L0zF0Q-S/cannon_rush_loss.html
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Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon.
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On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon.
Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up.
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On March 06 2012 09:47 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon. Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up.
Unless I've missed one the only YABOT map I've found to work is the (offical) line of maps. are there any other yabot maps that work still?
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On March 06 2012 09:47 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon. Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up.
I guess what I'm asking for is what is it exactly that I'm practicing?
I make an assimilator. Check.
Is there a common task that I do that can help remind my muscles when to return to the assimilator? Something to play off of? Or is it just count to 25 in your head and go back to the assimilator?
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i just played a pvz where i got absolutely trounced. not really sure what happened.
http://drop.sc/127424
i open FFE into 7-gate +2 blink stalker all in
things i know i messed up
-made too many probes, should've cut at 44
-missed some chrono on blink/+1/+2
-got supply blocked at 36/36
Anyways right before i'm about to warp in a bunch of stalkers at a proxy pylon above his third, i spot a bunch of speedlings in the middle of the map. i warp in 7 zealots followed by 7 stalkers and move down then i just get absolutely overrun by lings/roaches. after that i attempt to catch up, but obviously can't (i don't think, if anyone wants to watch the rest and give suggestions go ahead, but the game's over around 13 minutes imo)
basically i don't really see what went wrong. the timing seems about right, so should i have just made more zealots? or on scouting all the lings just played defensive and taken a third?
also so i don't have to be a 1 trick pony all inning after an FFE, does anyone have a link to a guide or something for the 5gate=> fast third? i had saw a list of FFE follow ups around here somewhere but can't find it again. Thanks!
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On March 06 2012 10:09 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 09:47 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon. Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up. I guess what I'm asking for is what is it exactly that I'm practicing? I make an assimilator. Check. Is there a common task that I do that can help remind my muscles when to return to the assimilator? Something to play off of? Or is it just count to 25 in your head and go back to the assimilator?
I often keep an eye on the assimilator to ensure that I can move probes as soon as it finishes. I think it's just a matter of constantly checking it. If you really feel you are having trouble with checking it, why not hot key it and tap the control group every so often while you are running your rounds for macro? I had trouble with hitting timings after my upgrades completed so I started to hotkey my forges and it helped.
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On March 06 2012 06:10 andReslic wrote:Hello Guys, I have some PvT Problems, I always go 2gates robo against terran but I still can stop him from pushing with Marines and Marauders (sometimes medivacs) its weird when i stop that push (mostly at this time i already have a 2nd base or they deny it), Im able to win this match when he doesnt push and i can keep mining and prolly getting a 3rd any help? thanks for your attention and help 
Still need help 
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On March 06 2012 10:25 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 10:09 lorkac wrote:On March 06 2012 09:47 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon. Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up. I guess what I'm asking for is what is it exactly that I'm practicing? I make an assimilator. Check. Is there a common task that I do that can help remind my muscles when to return to the assimilator? Something to play off of? Or is it just count to 25 in your head and go back to the assimilator? I often keep an eye on the assimilator to ensure that I can move probes as soon as it finishes. I think it's just a matter of constantly checking it. If you really feel you are having trouble with checking it, why not hot key it and tap the control group every so often while you are running your rounds for macro? I had trouble with hitting timings after my upgrades completed so I started to hotkey my forges and it helped.
I was mostly interested if there was a non-brute force way to learn it. I'm okay with just remembering--just wanted to make sure I didn't skip an easier way to handle it. Thanks so much.
EDIT:
Eureka!!!!!
The Backspace method! I can simply keep it a habit to scroll through my bases with backspace (which I've rebound to spacebar)
I simply need to make an effort to keep an eye out on assimilator building progress!
This will be hard--but eureka I've figured out something that I can practice mechanically!
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On March 06 2012 10:38 andReslic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 06:10 andReslic wrote:Hello Guys, I have some PvT Problems, I always go 2gates robo against terran but I still can stop him from pushing with Marines and Marauders (sometimes medivacs) its weird when i stop that push (mostly at this time i already have a 2nd base or they deny it), Im able to win this match when he doesnt push and i can keep mining and prolly getting a 3rd any help? thanks for your attention and help Still need help
3 things are needed to solve your dilemma.
1-a replay
2-the oppEnt's build order
3-your build order
I can help you as a Terran player depending what Terran build order you're talking about--they all require different responses.
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On March 06 2012 06:08 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 00:30 Tiegrr wrote:On March 05 2012 21:15 Latedi wrote:On March 05 2012 20:43 Ryndika wrote:Guys how I know if terran is going gasless expand or 2gas fast tech or 2rax? So far I've been trying to go this : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316256But if he doesnt do 2rax I'm not sure what's going on.. I usually get 2gates and robo at 30, get 2 quick observer. I dont know if i should get stalkers or zealots when I'm in dark? About midgame I also dont know where to go. Drops are scary and it takes 6stalkers to kill medivac with 2 volley, any less I feel gets obliterated and even 6 stalker probably loses to stmmed medidrop. I usually have 6 stalkers on my main 10:30. around 12m I dont know how to defend 2 medivac drop when my army is near my 3rd or fighting his army. TL:DR Whats my usual gameplan? Like as zerg I had lings into blings into muta, take 3rd, etc. Simple stuff. I dont know what I aim for in PvT and I dont know how I can fight MMM without colossus or how I tech to colossus safely but fast enough. (Like tech prio?) Well if he get's gas you can scout it, if he doesn't takes gas it's most likely a gasless FE. 2 fast geysers is quite unusual though and the only build I think taking 2 fast is blue flame hellion. 2 fast gas can also mean banshee harass->1/1/1 all in (or just banshee harass for something else). You'll need chargelots/colossi/phoenix/good engagements (1 if the 4, HT won't be up in time so I didn't mention that) to beat it. You're now likely to hold the attack if he goes on 2 bases for it though. Wait what? When would you ever need that unit composition? Against 1-1-1? O.o
Just one of those tech paths. It's impossible to do them all at once. 
And by good micro I mean godly FFs to pick off marines or tanks multiple times across the map.
*edit: typos. Ducking iPhone
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On March 06 2012 06:05 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 04:15 aZealot wrote:
Hey guys, any tips on dealing with a double gas steal?
PvP yesterday on Korhal where my opponent goes for a proxy gate. So, I drop down a forge and delay my gases in preparation for the hit. I think he realised that I had scouted it and held off, but he snuck a probe into my base and did a quick double gas steal. I thought of trying a cannon rush at his main, but he spotted my probe and I pulled out of that.
I eventually killed both assimilators with Zealots and took both my gases but he had transitioned into 4 gate and attacked just as my gates were coming online (I had 3 gates at that point and was planning on transitioning into Robo and WP). I think 3 of my mistakes were not anticipating the 4 gate transition as I made little attempt to scout his Core and the energy on his Nexus, and I had no Sentries when he attacked (although I think I would have had the gas for only on Sentry, and a Stalker). The other, of course, was killing that probe when it got into my base - I just was not anticipating a double gas steal (myabe I should have put a couple of probes onto killing the assimilators too, even though it would have cost me mining time).
Apart from these, are there any suggestions on what I could/should have done? Thanks. 1º Obvious option is to steal his gases as well (i did this every time i faced the double steal) 2º Chrono a zeals to his main. He should ve at least a bit behind; 150 min is a LOT early game. Then focus fire probes. 3º Kill both gases into ffe. His stalkers will be faster that yours so if he goes for a gate attack you cannot stop it without cannons, and cannoning your main will be pointless. Also, always scout for hidden probes. Also, next time be ready for it, get an assim. as soon you see his probe taking yout gases.
Thanks, it never occurred to me to steal his gases. That is the obvious response. ><
@ lorcac, not sure of any way of reminding yourself to put probes on assimilators other than habit. It does help that they build quickly though, so checking back soon after they go down should help. The first assim at 14 is pretty easy though, I usually assign the probe I have warping in a pylon at 16 to my gas which cues me to send 2 more at the same time, as the assim finishes around then. In PvP the same probe will usually build a Core as well (Gate at 12) before mining gas.
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 06 2012 10:09 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 09:47 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 06 2012 09:44 lorkac wrote:
Just an update. Protoss is fun--but I can't figure out how to manage gas timings. Specifically--I can't figure out an easy way to remember to put guys on gas. My fave with Terran was to have the scvs making depots be shift cued to the refinery. With Zerg I enjoyed rallying individual drone eggs to the extractor of choice. Don't know how to handle gas with Protoss past 14 assimilator which finishes by the start of 16pylon. Fire up YABOT and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Type -r if you mess up. I guess what I'm asking for is what is it exactly that I'm practicing? I make an assimilator. Check. Is there a common task that I do that can help remind my muscles when to return to the assimilator? Something to play off of? Or is it just count to 25 in your head and go back to the assimilator?
If you chrono your nexus 3 times, you can rally the 16th probe to the assimilator as well as the probe that made the second pylon at 16, and order just one probe from your mineral line to the gas. NonY does this a lot, and it looks kinda cool
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On March 06 2012 07:40 callecal wrote:thanks recklessfire, I just hate bringing all my probes to kill the pylons cause i feel i loose more than my opponents pylon + cannon in miningtime and probes. Plus I feel like i cannot kill his probe in my base without a stalker, and if i get a stalker up that means he has 3+ cannons up already. here is a replay of the last loss, guess i should have pulled more probes? http://www.2shared.com/file/L0zF0Q-S/cannon_rush_loss.html
I just saw the replay. Okay so you see him place down a forge, he didnt even try to hide it and then you see him place a pylon down on the low ground. You needed to pull 4-6 probes and kill the low ground pylon. ANYTHING he tries to place down you needed to kill it asap and wait for the zealot to come out and clean up. It looked like u were going to hold it but u forgot to mine gas so no stalker =(
Dont worry about lost mining time and blah blah. Once you hold it you ARE SOOOOOOO ahead, his gateway probably wont be finished and he still has to place an assimilator and gather gas while your assim was already made regardless if you have mined gas or not. And then he still has to place down a cyber core, Yours is already down so your ahead in tech and economy. As for the follow up I dont recommend a 4 gate because many times they will cannon up their ramp. I would grab a robo and just tech straight to colossus and push with 2 colossus no range and you should straight up kill him. Remember to grab an observer just in case he tries to do more cheesy shit. If he goes blink stalkers and keeps trying to base trade just bank minerals and attack with your army while bringing probes. He will never be able to engage you and you wont lose to the trade.
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I keep hearing about a PvZ build where protoss goes FFE into stargate and sends 1 VR and 5 pheonix and then transitions into immortals. I have not found a good build order/replay/VOD of this style are there any out there?
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Thanks alot recklessfire for taking your time to watch the replay, I believe you are right, I shouldnt worry to much about lost mining time and just grab some probes and kill the first pylon! Will see if I can find a practice partner as well!
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Are there any generic tips on dealing with mass drops (3+ medivacs at a time?) It seems like the normal drop defense of a handful of Zealots with an HT are just not enough, or the earlier game drop defense of several Stalkers. The thing I have issue with is that the force is so large, that they don't even need to drop near the mineral line to be able to do damage, because with stim and that group size, whatever they're near is going to go down.
The difference with having good perimeter vision of your base is compounded when you're not trying to deter a drop (which is easy enough with pylons on the edges), but trying to kill a Terran determined to drop.
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On March 06 2012 06:18 callecal wrote:
Any good idea how to defend a cannon rush PVP. I am in platinum. say he goes 12-14 forge in his base and you scout his proxy pylon down your ramp.
Delay his cannons by sending 4 probes per cannon to attack it, then either get a stalker out to kill the probe (can be quite hard sometimes) or get a forge and make cannons of your own.
On March 06 2012 15:42 Tiegrr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 06:08 Latedi wrote:On March 06 2012 00:30 Tiegrr wrote:On March 05 2012 21:15 Latedi wrote:On March 05 2012 20:43 Ryndika wrote:Guys how I know if terran is going gasless expand or 2gas fast tech or 2rax? So far I've been trying to go this : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316256But if he doesnt do 2rax I'm not sure what's going on.. I usually get 2gates and robo at 30, get 2 quick observer. I dont know if i should get stalkers or zealots when I'm in dark? About midgame I also dont know where to go. Drops are scary and it takes 6stalkers to kill medivac with 2 volley, any less I feel gets obliterated and even 6 stalker probably loses to stmmed medidrop. I usually have 6 stalkers on my main 10:30. around 12m I dont know how to defend 2 medivac drop when my army is near my 3rd or fighting his army. TL:DR Whats my usual gameplan? Like as zerg I had lings into blings into muta, take 3rd, etc. Simple stuff. I dont know what I aim for in PvT and I dont know how I can fight MMM without colossus or how I tech to colossus safely but fast enough. (Like tech prio?) Well if he get's gas you can scout it, if he doesn't takes gas it's most likely a gasless FE. 2 fast geysers is quite unusual though and the only build I think taking 2 fast is blue flame hellion. 2 fast gas can also mean banshee harass->1/1/1 all in (or just banshee harass for something else). You'll need chargelots/colossi/phoenix/good engagements (1 if the 4, HT won't be up in time so I didn't mention that) to beat it. You're now likely to hold the attack if he goes on 2 bases for it though. Wait what? When would you ever need that unit composition? Against 1-1-1? O.o Just one of those tech paths. It's impossible to do them all at once. And by good micro I mean godly FFs to pick off marines or tanks multiple times across the map. *edit: typos. Ducking iPhone
Come one man don't be like that :p I love iPhone typos.
On March 07 2012 04:15 Staples1 wrote:
I keep hearing about a PvZ build where protoss goes FFE into stargate and sends 1 VR and 5 pheonix and then transitions into immortals. I have not found a good build order/replay/VOD of this style are there any out there?
That build simply does not make any sense. Air will most likely force hydras in which case you don't want immortals. Other than that, stargate openers and immortal all ins/timings are both good builds. I think this transition is highly situational.
On March 07 2012 05:58 Supah wrote:
Are there any generic tips on dealing with mass drops (3+ medivacs at a time?) It seems like the normal drop defense of a handful of Zealots with an HT are just not enough, or the earlier game drop defense of several Stalkers. The thing I have issue with is that the force is so large, that they don't even need to drop near the mineral line to be able to do damage, because with stim and that group size, whatever they're near is going to go down.
The difference with having good perimeter vision of your base is compounded when you're not trying to deter a drop (which is easy enough with pylons on the edges), but trying to kill a Terran determined to drop.
Well the only way to really kill a drop off before the actual drop has occured is with feedback/storm/cannons or blink stalkers. Of course late game blink stalkers isn't an option so cannons and HTs is preferred. The problem though is that you don't always get to feedback before the medivacs land but you still have a few options. Something I have started doing lately is making a small cluster of defense to make it stronger, like 2-3 cannons close to each other with a HT. This will take out any drops going directly for the mineral line/tech or whatever I'm protecting and the HT can also move to another position to feedback/storm if I scouted the drop coming.
Of course there's a problem to when the medivacs get their units out and there isn't too much you can do about this. First I think you should be careful not to be heavily outpositioned. Say, having your army far away from your base without vision of drop paths or enough defense at home. Second, there are many ways of defending drops. The easiest is of course to walk your army back and this is one of the reasons you should always have some blink stalkers. Even if they're not really good at fighting, losing them is often better than losing tech or a nexus. Another thing I like to do is feedbacking all the medivacs even if it doesn't kill them, and warp in as many zealots as possible. Without the healing it's harder for the terran to keep his units alive.
Another good tech to have in case of this is DTs. Just warp in one or two and they will clean up the drop really quick unless there's a scan. You can mix them with zealots to make it less obvious. The problem with both DTs and the previously mentioned zealot warp in is that terran can kite and scan. Try to be aggressive with your main army while doing this so that the terran player has to prioritize either his main army or microing the drop. Most likely they will choose the former.
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Lately I've been slumping as a player and I can't find my way back to when I could simply play the game, enjoy it and have succes. now I'm not talking succes as in winning but simply being able to execute well.
What do you do when your playing people a full league lower because you feel like your hands don't do what your head tells them?
A really frustrated toss who might be demoted to gold while I used to play vs high plat and diamonds.
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EPT
