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The 3gate expand should be fine, it's almost as good as the 1gate expand. Maybe cut a gate for a faster stargate though. I believe the stargate is doable from any opening as long as you haven't commited to other tech yet. I have seen that quite some players have been doing 3gate expand into stargate with varying success but as the pressure you can apply from 3gate delays the possible third of the zerg, the stargate doesn't have to be as fast as the one from forge FE either.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 14 2011 05:05 Latedi wrote:The 3gate expand should be fine, it's almost as good as the 1gate expand. Maybe cut a gate for a faster stargate though. I believe the stargate is doable from any opening as long as you haven't commited to other tech yet. I have seen that quite some players have been doing 3gate expand into stargate with varying success but as the pressure you can apply from 3gate delays the possible third of the zerg, the stargate doesn't have to be as fast as the one from forge FE either.
If you cut a gate for a stargate, it's no longer a 3 gate expand but a 2 gate stargate expand, which is a completely different build. Also, 3 gate expand into stargate is not safe versus roach ling allins, unlike 1 gate expand with a stargate.
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On August 14 2011 07:25 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 05:05 Latedi wrote:On August 13 2011 22:53 Geiko wrote:On August 13 2011 22:29 Nseven wrote:
anyone have a good PvZ stargate harass build with forge FE and one without/ any fast stargate build vs Zerg would be helpful http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230939To my knowledge, no one has yet made a thread on a particular version of 1 gate FE into stargate. The 3gate expand should be fine, it's almost as good as the 1gate expand. Maybe cut a gate for a faster stargate though. I believe the stargate is doable from any opening as long as you haven't commited to other tech yet. I have seen that quite some players have been doing 3gate expand into stargate with varying success but as the pressure you can apply from 3gate delays the possible third of the zerg, the stargate doesn't have to be as fast as the one from forge FE either. If you cut a gate for a stargate, it's no longer a 3 gate expand but a 2 gate stargate expand, which is a completely different build. Also, 3 gate expand into stargate is not safe versus roach ling allins, unlike 1 gate expand with a stargate.
I think that depends on your scouting and how many canons you get. Also I meant getting the stargate after the expansion if that was unclear.
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United States8476 Posts
I understand what you were trying to say. The problem is you can't reliably scout for the roach ling allin. In addition, cannons don't finish in time to stop roach ling allins, so mass cannons isn't really an option. The latest version of a roach ling attack (non all-in) comes at you with 34ish drones and hits around 7:50 on bigger maps while all-in versions can hit as early as 7:20.
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I'm a macro player, but the only macro I can do these days are in PvZ. In PvT I just get hit by all-ins all the time, if it isn't 1/1/1 it's something else where all scvs are pulled.
Suppose I go 2 gate robo, which is suppose to be the most safe of them all PvT openers and I scout that my opponent is doing for example, 1/1/1. What do I do? Do I expand and add 3 more gateways and pray that I can flank him somehow? I'm just so confused.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 14 2011 08:28 eYeball wrote:
I'm a macro player, but the only macro I can do these days are in PvZ. In PvT I just get hit by all-ins all the time, if it isn't 1/1/1 it's something else where all scvs are pulled.
Suppose I go 2 gate robo, which is suppose to be the most safe of them all PvT openers and I scout that my opponent is doing for example, 1/1/1. What do I do? Do I expand and add 3 more gateways and pray that I can flank him somehow? I'm just so confused.
Check out qtip's guide on defending the 1/1/1. I highly recommend it and it's close to what I do currently versus the 1/1/1 allin.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
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Hi there, my (mid masters) friend Adonminus recently started doing mothership rushes, and he apparantly had a lot of succes with it. As you are probably thinking, "mothership LOL?", he actually wins alot of games with it.
This is how he does it.
He relies early game on forge with 2cannons and sentries.
Then he gets 2-3 void rays, an observer for DT's, and stalkers. Plus his mothership.
He engages near your ramp and uses vortex on half your army, if you dont get it into the vortex, he kills your army in 2parts. If you decide to get to the safety of the vortex, he blinks and goes for the probes.
So, i tried playing him, I'm currently platinum but i beat alot of diamonds. I figured fast blink would get me an easy win.
Somehow he managed to hold off my push with blink, and as soon as the mothership popped, it was basically game over.
What's would be a good way to counter this?
replays:
Adon vs mid masters protoss who goes for fast collosus
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175231-1v1-protoss-gutterhulk
Adon vs Me, going blink stalker
[url blocked]
(not a ladder map so not supported by most replay sites - sorry)
Thanks!
ps: He's been doing this vs zergs too, only on 2base and opening with a FFE. If there are any good zergs out there, i'd like to know how you would counter it.
(hits with 3void rays 3immortals, observer and stalker or zealot/sentry depending on your army, and the mommaship)
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On August 05 2011 15:24 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 15:11 Cubbieblue66 wrote:
Can somebody give me a good build order for a forge fast expand versus Zerg? The one on Liquipedia has been a decent enough starting point for me, but I don't know how to go from there... I tend to favor gateway-heavy armies, maybe mixing in a couple immortals generally. 12 forge 17 nexus cannon gateway 18 assimilator pylon assimilator
Sorry if this has already been answered but on a four player map what can you do if you scout a 6/7 pool last with this opening?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 14 2011 19:14 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 15:24 iamke55 wrote:On August 05 2011 15:11 Cubbieblue66 wrote:
Can somebody give me a good build order for a forge fast expand versus Zerg? The one on Liquipedia has been a decent enough starting point for me, but I don't know how to go from there... I tend to favor gateway-heavy armies, maybe mixing in a couple immortals generally. 12 forge 17 nexus cannon gateway 18 assimilator pylon assimilator Sorry if this has already been answered but on a four player map what can you do if you scout a 6/7 pool last with this opening?
On large 4 player maps, you have to double scout with probes to be completely safe vs 6, 7, 8, 9 pools, or even 10 pools. Send your forge building probe out to scout as well as your pylon building probe. Both probes should get to a base at the exact same time.
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On August 14 2011 19:27 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 19:14 tomatriedes wrote:On August 05 2011 15:24 iamke55 wrote:On August 05 2011 15:11 Cubbieblue66 wrote:
Can somebody give me a good build order for a forge fast expand versus Zerg? The one on Liquipedia has been a decent enough starting point for me, but I don't know how to go from there... I tend to favor gateway-heavy armies, maybe mixing in a couple immortals generally. 12 forge 17 nexus cannon gateway 18 assimilator pylon assimilator Sorry if this has already been answered but on a four player map what can you do if you scout a 6/7 pool last with this opening? On large 4 player maps, you have to double scout with probes to be completely safe vs 6, 7, 8, 9 pools, or even 10 pools. Send your forge building probe out to scout as well as your pylon building probe. Both probes should get to a base at the exact same time.
Double scout is also great to pull off cannon rushes on greedy hatch first zergs (yeah some zergs still do that on FFE maps...). It's also great for hiding a probe somewhere before watchtowers are held by zerglings. Also if you screw up your first expansion timing scout probe, or just want to confirm, sending in the second probe at the right timing will keep you safe from early low econ all ins.
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As someone else posted, I have yet to see a thread about 1 gate FE PvZ... Any one of you blue posters up for the challenge ? :D
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On August 14 2011 08:07 4kmonk wrote:
I understand what you were trying to say. The problem is you can't reliably scout for the roach ling allin. In addition, cannons don't finish in time to stop roach ling allins, so mass cannons isn't really an option. The latest version of a roach ling attack (non all-in) comes at you with 34ish drones and hits around 7:50 on bigger maps while all-in versions can hit as early as 7:20.
Sorry I have no idea, I never had problems with that all in. But with a preemptive canon or two it should be safe, depending on the map.
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I recently noticed that more terran players are going a factory type build ( i think 4 factories with 2 tech-labs and 2 reactors). Their composition is thors, tanks, hellion and sometimes a raven. What is the best way to deal with this build? Some people say carriers, which i have tried, but carriers just seem to take to long to get and by the time you get enough, the terran players transitions into mass vikings. If anyone can tell me a decent build with carriers that counters this that would be awesome because I love carriers  .
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United States8476 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:43 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 08:07 4kmonk wrote:
I understand what you were trying to say. The problem is you can't reliably scout for the roach ling allin. In addition, cannons don't finish in time to stop roach ling allins, so mass cannons isn't really an option. The latest version of a roach ling attack (non all-in) comes at you with 34ish drones and hits around 7:50 on bigger maps while all-in versions can hit as early as 7:20. Sorry I have no idea, I never had problems with that all in. But with a preemptive canon or two it should be safe, depending on the map.
My point is that you can't achieve both the following 2 things from a 3 gate expand into stargate build:
1. Be safe against a roach ling allin.
2. Get the first voidray out in time for it to be actually useful.
Check out Losira vs Alicia on metalopolis in I believe the May GSL for an example of 3 gate expand into stargate build that dies to a roach ling allin. This is why after that game, no one has ever attempted to go 3 gate expand into stargate. This, combined with the warpgate nerf/sentry build time buff is why 1 gate fe is now the predominate build over 3 gate fe.
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On August 14 2011 23:06 4kmonk wrote:
This is why after that game, no one has ever attempted to go 3 gate expand into stargate. This, combined with the warpgate nerf/sentry build time buff is why 1 gate fe is now the predominate build over 3 gate fe.
Um, I'm pretty sure oGs.MC pioneered a new style of PvZ based on 3 gate expo into stargate.
EDIT: linking fun times.
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On August 15 2011 01:42 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:06 4kmonk wrote:
This is why after that game, no one has ever attempted to go 3 gate expand into stargate. This, combined with the warpgate nerf/sentry build time buff is why 1 gate fe is now the predominate build over 3 gate fe. Um, I'm pretty sure oGs.MC pioneered a new style of PvZ based on 3 gate expo into stargate. EDIT: linking fun times.
I'm pretty sure MC's build is a 1 gate FE into 3 gate and stargate which is completely different than a 3 gate expo.
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Hey, I'm a silver Zerg (pretty sure going to be promoted to Gold soon) that got bored of the swarm and wants to start playing Protoss, where should I start with BOs and army compositions?
Also, I've played PvT and it was pretty boring to mass Colossi, which BO is the best if I want to use heavy warpgate style with Archons and HTs?
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On August 14 2011 22:52 SadCowsGoMoo wrote:I recently noticed that more terran players are going a factory type build ( i think 4 factories with 2 tech-labs and 2 reactors). Their composition is thors, tanks, hellion and sometimes a raven. What is the best way to deal with this build? Some people say carriers, which i have tried, but carriers just seem to take to long to get and by the time you get enough, the terran players transitions into mass vikings. If anyone can tell me a decent build with carriers that counters this that would be awesome because I love carriers .
My friend goes mech against me all the time xD What I do usually is going blink stalker colossi and abuse the f*ck out of the terran's immobility. Just raze their production buildings, vulnerable bases etc. Then later on when you are on say 3-4 bases, get 3 stargates and then a ton of void rays, carriers, and a mothership. Recall is useful for either getting to his main or, if you got in there somehow, flee without any losses. I don't reccomend a straight up fight as it will often turn out badly vs sieged tanks. Other ground units that are useful vs mech are immortals, obviously, and archons as they can tank damage for your more important units and actually survive for a few seconds. If he has few or no hellions, get loads of zealots for an easy win ^^ Warp prism is also really good for harassing an immobile terran and forcing turrets. Sorry for wall of text, I'm sure there are other ways of dealing with this style. Ooh and upgrades :D almost forgot about those. And one last thing, you can expand really easily against this style, just remember to canon up in case of those pesky blue flame hellions and you will be ahead economically.
On August 15 2011 01:48 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:42 Bonham wrote:On August 14 2011 23:06 4kmonk wrote:
This is why after that game, no one has ever attempted to go 3 gate expand into stargate. This, combined with the warpgate nerf/sentry build time buff is why 1 gate fe is now the predominate build over 3 gate fe. Um, I'm pretty sure oGs.MC pioneered a new style of PvZ based on 3 gate expo into stargate. EDIT: linking fun times. I'm pretty sure MC's build is a 1 gate FE into 3 gate and stargate which is completely different than a 3 gate expo.
I think it's pretty much the same, it's just a later timing with a 3gate FE than the 1gate FE.
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On August 15 2011 02:21 Sufroner wrote:
Hey, I'm a silver Zerg (pretty sure going to be promoted to Gold soon) that got bored of the swarm and wants to start playing Protoss, where should I start with BOs and army compositions?
Also, I've played PvT and it was pretty boring to mass Colossi, which BO is the best if I want to use heavy warpgate style with Archons and HTs?
If you don't know anything, learn to 4gate first. While it's not the best build, it is crucial in PvP, and can be effective against zerg/terran as well in given situations.
The reason I say 4gate is because it well get you comfortable with the Idea of forward pylons and chrono boosting. The build is relatively simple and quite effective.
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On August 15 2011 02:35 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:21 Sufroner wrote:
Hey, I'm a silver Zerg (pretty sure going to be promoted to Gold soon) that got bored of the swarm and wants to start playing Protoss, where should I start with BOs and army compositions?
Also, I've played PvT and it was pretty boring to mass Colossi, which BO is the best if I want to use heavy warpgate style with Archons and HTs? If you don't know anything, learn to 4gate first. While it's not the best build, it is crucial in PvP, and can be effective against zerg/terran as well in given situations. The reason I say 4gate is because it well get you comfortable with the Idea of forward pylons and chrono boosting. The build is relatively simple and quite effective.
While I do agree the 4gate is crucial I think the 3gate robo is a better start as it's more of a long term build, and it works in pretty much in any matchup.
For PvT I would suggest the double forge build if you like mass gateway style.
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EPT
