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On August 15 2011 10:26 See.Blue wrote:
How do I best respond to proxy gates in PvP and proxy rax in PvT?
For proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate, and <10 pools:
-Scout on 9 on maps with only 2 spawn locations (where you both know each others' initial spawns). Any later and you won't find it in time.
-As soon as you know he's up to something, drop a Forge immediately, pull any probes off gas and cancel any Assimilator in construction, and build a well placed cannon once the Forge is done. Second cannon only if necessary.
-All chrono boosts on your Gateway, which should be making nothing but Zealots.
-Pull probes if/when necessary. Micro damaged ones back.
-Once the initial threat is over, probes back to gas, drop Cybernetics Core, boost out Warp Gate upgrade and +1 weapons and shove 4 warp gates down his throat. Enjoy your free win.
Edit: I should mention, you should be keeping your buildings around your Nexus with your Pylons behind them so that if you are being proxied, you can throw a cannon down right behind them.
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On August 15 2011 09:33 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:50 Geiko wrote:On August 15 2011 07:47 hobosrus wrote:I know that 1 gate fe is standard pvz but i dont know the build order.  can someone post the build order and common follow ups. Thanks  9 pylon ->scout 11 cb nexus 13 gate 13 cb nexus 15 gas 17 pylon 17 core -> warp gate (cb 3 times) 18 gaz 19 zealot (cb) 23 pylon 23 sentry 26 sentry 30 sentry 32 nexus pylon gate gate stargate get void rays I'll try to post something more detailed maybe if I can get my hands on enough korean replays. Sorry, geiko but this is actually wrong. You're probably getting this build off of one of MC's replays where he did something funky in the beginning. Off the top of my head, it goes more something like this: Assume constant probe production throughout 9 pylon ->scout 11 cb nexus 12 gate 13 cb nexus 14 gas 15 cb nexus 17 pylon 17 core -> warp gate 18 gas 19 zealot 23 pylon 23 sentry (spend all spare cb on gateway until warpgates finish) 26 sentry pylon 30 sentry nexus (when money allows) between 5:10 and 5:25 gateway (when money allows) gateway (when money allows) tech building(when money allows, ie stargate, twilight, forge, robo) 40 pylon Transfer 8 probes to natural. The key difference is that you spend cb on sentries instead of warpgates. Your warpgates should finish in line with the completion of your 2nd gateway, with your 3rd gateway following shortly after.
Yeah like I said, it was an approximate BO. I actually took this off of one of naniwa's games where he only uses 2 cb on sentries and 12 gate scout.
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Could someone explain what is important in a Zealot/collosi vs zealot/collosi fight in pvp (with 1-2 immortals, 1 or 2 sentrys and some stalkers, but mainly zealot/collosi)? How do i engage correctly, how should i micro my units, what do i have to target fire with what units?
Thanks for the advice :D
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
since terran stay in 1base massing marines, tank, banshee and 1 raven, i thought why protoss
doesnt do the 3Gate blink + expo far away as we do vs P.
Question: it is viable to do 3gate blink with observer vs 1-1-1 from terran?
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On August 15 2011 21:38 Lowell wrote:
Could someone explain what is important in a Zealot/collosi vs zealot/collosi fight in pvp (with 1-2 immortals, 1 or 2 sentrys and some stalkers, but mainly zealot/collosi)? How do i engage correctly, how should i micro my units, what do i have to target fire with what units?
Thanks for the advice :D
Mirror battle, the only thing important is positioning and micro. Colo + zealot there isn't much to micro so it all comes down to positioning ( getting the better concave ). Of course upgrades play an obvious role as well...
Check this daily out for mirror colo/zealot : http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-243-white-ra-vs-naniwa-4673859
On August 15 2011 23:06 EliteReplay wrote:
since terran stay in 1base massing marines, tank, banshee and 1 raven, i thought why protoss
doesnt do the 3Gate blink + expo far away as we do vs P.
Question: it is viable to do 3gate blink with observer vs 1-1-1 from terran?
No it's not. Stalkers get destroyed by every single unit in the 1-1-1 attack + PDD, and you can't win a base trade vs terran.
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On August 15 2011 10:26 See.Blue wrote:
How do I best respond to proxy gates in PvP and proxy rax in PvT?
Scout after your Gateway every game in PvP. If you see the Gates (you will with proper scouting movements), throw down a Forge. Cut probes if needed to have constant chrono Zealots and get 1 cannon. If he gets a ton of Zealots, get 2 cannons. If his Zealots try to bum-rush your cannon, place probes around it that are not on a-move to act as a wall. Often times you can just trap enemy Zealots between probes for the cannon(s) to pick off.
His Zealots take up supply and lose to your cannons in terms of cost efficiency. You'll come out ahead if you get more probes and/or tech faster. Which brings me to my next point - Be sure to also get an Assimilator + Cyber Core the moment you can afford it without dieing. If you overreact and he 4 Gates with faster Core, you'll lose.
Proxy rax?? See it and then just make units out of 2 Gateways while chronoing WG research, 3 Gate Expand. That's off the top of my head since nobody does that since the depot patch.
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So a little bit building on the collosis battles.
Say my second collosis just popped and my opponent is going robo too. So since I'm moving out I don't want to make another collosis due to the fact it will cut into my army, that however leaves me with surplus gas.
I have three gateways and at my warp in I have 350~ minerals and 200 gas ~. Now choice I make is I want to spend all my resources, so go for 3 stalkers. But I feel like 3 zealots would do more damage. Pretty much what Im asking is do I want zealots or stalkers or sentries with my warp ins as I'm attacking, because I tend to get rolled by a higher zealot count from my opponent if I make stalkers, and my stalker count is only like 5 anyways, so trying to go around to snipe collosis is pretty silly, especially considering his one-two immortals will have easy shots at me.
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On August 15 2011 09:57 meadbert wrote:So as a Silver player there a bunch of basic build order/mechanics issues such as not floating 1K minerals at 7 minutes and also hotkeying your army. Still, you pretty much had him beat despite this. Where you went wrong was a combination of over-probing and getting no cannons. You want more collectors than your opponent, but doubly him is very risky especially without static defense. Once you were up 35-20 on collectors you could have just 4-6 gated for the win. If you want to get to 45-25 then you really need cannons to defend his army which was about as powerful as yours. Basically once your main was mined out and you were on two open bases you could not defend from ling harass. Instead you could have built a a few cannons at each which would have gone a long way. Good luck and have fun!
Okay, thanks for the help. I'll make sure to do that next time. When do you recommend scouting again? I kept making workers because I assumed he expanded.
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On August 16 2011 01:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:
So a little bit building on the collosis battles.
Say my second collosis just popped and my opponent is going robo too. So since I'm moving out I don't want to make another collosis due to the fact it will cut into my army, that however leaves me with surplus gas.
I have three gateways and at my warp in I have 350~ minerals and 200 gas ~. Now choice I make is I want to spend all my resources, so go for 3 stalkers. But I feel like 3 zealots would do more damage. Pretty much what Im asking is do I want zealots or stalkers or sentries with my warp ins as I'm attacking, because I tend to get rolled by a higher zealot count from my opponent if I make stalkers, and my stalker count is only like 5 anyways, so trying to go around to snipe collosis is pretty silly, especially considering his one-two immortals will have easy shots at me.
This is a good question, and although the answer is obviously situational, I'm not even confident in this answer.
Personally I actually always go for a 3rd colossus even though it won't be there for that initial battle. While the common conception is that these kinds of games are 1-big-battle-to-decide-the-game, that's not always the case. Gateway armies on both sides will die, but colossus will still be left at the end. I'd rather retreat with my 2 colossus and come back with an extra colossus but much smaller gateway army than having a bigger gateway army but down on the colossus count.
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On August 16 2011 01:19 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:26 See.Blue wrote:
How do I best respond to proxy gates in PvP and proxy rax in PvT? Scout after your Gateway every game in PvP. If you see the Gates (you will with proper scouting movements), throw down a Forge. Cut probes if needed to have constant chrono Zealots and get 1 cannon. If he gets a ton of Zealots, get 2 cannons. If his Zealots try to bum-rush your cannon, place probes around it that are not on a-move to act as a wall. Often times you can just trap enemy Zealots between probes for the cannon(s) to pick off. His Zealots take up supply and lose to your cannons in terms of cost efficiency. You'll come out ahead if you get more probes and/or tech faster. Which brings me to my next point - Be sure to also get an Assimilator + Cyber Core the moment you can afford it without dieing. If you overreact and he 4 Gates with faster Core, you'll lose. Proxy rax?? See it and then just make units out of 2 Gateways while chronoing WG research, 3 Gate Expand. That's off the top of my head since nobody does that since the depot patch.
In PvP, it depends on how early you scout the proxy gate. The most optimal solution if you scout it fast enough it's best to respond with your own 2 gates (or even 3). The reason why going gate forge is bad is because then the proxy gater can respond with his own forge and cannon you. There is no way you can make a cannon or 2 to protect your entire base from offensive cannons, and you'll be down on the zealot count so you can't attack his cannons without pulling probes. However, if you scout it a bit later than forge>cannon is a much "quicker" defense than adding a 2 gate for more zealots.
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On August 16 2011 01:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:
So a little bit building on the collosis battles.
Say my second collosis just popped and my opponent is going robo too. So since I'm moving out I don't want to make another collosis due to the fact it will cut into my army, that however leaves me with surplus gas.
I have three gateways and at my warp in I have 350~ minerals and 200 gas ~. Now choice I make is I want to spend all my resources, so go for 3 stalkers. But I feel like 3 zealots would do more damage. Pretty much what Im asking is do I want zealots or stalkers or sentries with my warp ins as I'm attacking, because I tend to get rolled by a higher zealot count from my opponent if I make stalkers, and my stalker count is only like 5 anyways, so trying to go around to snipe collosis is pretty silly, especially considering his one-two immortals will have easy shots at me.
With a 2 Colossus push keep in mind it's most effective on maps with shorter distances. I don't think it will even work on any of the larger 4 player maps.
I like to lay a 4th Gate down the moment I can afford it, after my second Colo has been ordered. Then I just have a 4 Gate attack with 2 Colossus, as the third one won't come out in time to get into the battle. I'll usually warp in Zealot/Stalker, since near the end of the battle it seems to be a bit more helpful to me to have a group of Stalkers with my remaining Colo, but that's just me.
I'd say warpin whatever you feel would help you the most at the current time. Stalker = Mobility + Range, Zealot = Beefy + Powerful hits.
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On August 16 2011 02:08 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 01:19 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 15 2011 10:26 See.Blue wrote:
How do I best respond to proxy gates in PvP and proxy rax in PvT? Scout after your Gateway every game in PvP. If you see the Gates (you will with proper scouting movements), throw down a Forge. Cut probes if needed to have constant chrono Zealots and get 1 cannon. If he gets a ton of Zealots, get 2 cannons. If his Zealots try to bum-rush your cannon, place probes around it that are not on a-move to act as a wall. Often times you can just trap enemy Zealots between probes for the cannon(s) to pick off. His Zealots take up supply and lose to your cannons in terms of cost efficiency. You'll come out ahead if you get more probes and/or tech faster. Which brings me to my next point - Be sure to also get an Assimilator + Cyber Core the moment you can afford it without dieing. If you overreact and he 4 Gates with faster Core, you'll lose. Proxy rax?? See it and then just make units out of 2 Gateways while chronoing WG research, 3 Gate Expand. That's off the top of my head since nobody does that since the depot patch. In PvP, it depends on how early you scout the proxy gate. The most optimal solution if you scout it fast enough it's best to respond with your own 2 gates (or even 3). The reason why going gate forge is bad is because then the proxy gater can respond with his own forge and cannon you. There is no way you can make a cannon or 2 to protect your entire base from offensive cannons, and you'll be down on the zealot count so you can't attack his cannons without pulling probes. However, if you scout it a bit later than forge>cannon is a much "quicker" defense than adding a 2 gate for more zealots.
Oh right I forgot about offensive cannoning. If you see it soon enough, I'd definitely go for 2 Gates myself. Though I've defended my base from offensive cannons + proxy gates plenty of times. I just be sure to check and see if he's got a forge or not, and if he does I place my cannons differently.
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So...wait... If you're getting zealot-rushed, the optimal solution is to get a cannon because it's cost-efficient versus zealots so you'll win. But if you're getting cannon-rushed, somehow the math is reversed and you want to get mass zealots with no defensive cannons?
I mean I understand the need to eventually break out of the cannon contain, but it seems like cannons are a lot better to stabilize.
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On August 16 2011 03:02 galivet wrote:
So...wait... If you're getting zealot-rushed, the optimal solution is to get a cannon because it's cost-efficient versus zealots so you'll win. But if you're getting cannon-rushed, somehow the math is reversed and you want to get mass zealots with no defensive cannons?
I mean I understand the need to eventually break out of the cannon contain, but it seems like cannons are a lot better to stabilize.
Nono. We said 2 Gate is best if you can react fast enough. If not, then Cannon defense.
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So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?
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On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?
Infestor/Roach dies really hard to Immortal/HT.
It sounds like you're just playing too passive waiting for big AoE units, and then you just get out-macroed.
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On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?
HT/archon is pretty much the same thing, since if you have 1 you will also have the other. So your question is colossus or templar tech? While a lot of it is personal preference, here's my take on it:
Just go the colossus route. It's so much easier.
Yes, stalker/immortal/HT/archon/sentry is a really strong composition and arguably it's better against roach/infestor that's extremely common nowadays. But it comes with the caveat that it is fucking hard to use effectively. You need to keep your army spread out so not everything gets fungaled, especially your spellcasters which can die really quickly to a few fungals if you're not careful. You have to use feedback well, and anyone who says HTs counter infestors hard due to feedback is obviously playing newbs who a-move their entire army and don't bother controlling their infestors (note: fungal vs feedback is just like EMP vs feedback, all range is 9 but since fungal/EMP has +2 radius you can fungal out of range of feedback). Then you have stalkers to blink, and sentries to use forcefields. On top of all of that you have to position your army carefully so that your immortals are near the front and your spellcasters are near the back, so that your spellcasters don't get instantly picked off while your immortals get stuck wandering behind stalkers that are fungaled so they can't blink out of the way.
Meanwhile, if you go colossus all you have to do is a-move and win. Maybe lay down some forcefields before your sentries die. And don't listen to nonsense like "infestors counter to colossus with NP," because it's not true at all. Colossus range is same as NP, if you see the NP thingy shooting out of the infestors just quickly target that infestor with your colossus. It dies in 3 colossus shots. In order for zerg to successfully NP you they have to essentially NP all of your colossus at the same time which is not going to happen if you have like... more than 3 colossus. And if the zerg somehow manages to pull that off just blink in a few stalkers to snipe a NPing infestor.
Now with regards to chargelot/archon: this is a really situational composition, you can't make it work in all situations (like you can with stalker/HT or stalker/colossus). There's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just that roach hard counters it. Infestors just make it worse for you but aren't even necessary. You should only go chargelot/archon if you see your opponent insistent on not making roaches, such as if they go ling/bling/infestor, or you've done something like stargate play to force your opponent into making hydras and not roaches.
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On August 16 2011 04:19 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades? Infestor/Roach dies really hard to Immortal/HT. It sounds like you're just playing too passive waiting for big AoE units, and then you just get out-macroed.
That's entirely possible. I'm never quite sure when to push out, especially with scary things like Ling runbys or Roaches ready to sneak into my base after I leave. What's a good way to guage how "safe" I am to make an attack or poke? Or should I simply have better scouting and play passively to 200/200?
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On August 16 2011 04:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades? HT/archon is pretty much the same thing, since if you have 1 you will also have the other. So your question is colossus or templar tech? While a lot of it is personal preference, here's my take on it: Just go the colossus route. It's so much easier. Yes, stalker/immortal/HT/archon/sentry is a really strong composition and arguably it's better against roach/infestor that's extremely common nowadays. But it comes with the caveat that it is fucking hard to use effectively. You need to keep your army spread out so not everything gets fungaled, especially your spellcasters which can die really quickly to a few fungals if you're not careful. You have to use feedback well, and anyone who says HTs counter infestors hard due to feedback is obviously playing newbs who a-move their entire army and don't bother controlling their infestors (note: fungal vs feedback is just like EMP vs feedback, all range is 9 but since fungal/EMP has +2 radius you can fungal out of range of feedback). Then you have stalkers to blink, and sentries to use forcefields. On top of all of that you have to position your army carefully so that your immortals are near the front and your spellcasters are near the back, so that your spellcasters don't get instantly picked off while your immortals get stuck wandering behind stalkers that are fungaled so they can't blink out of the way. Meanwhile, if you go colossus all you have to do is a-move and win. Maybe lay down some forcefields before your sentries die. And don't listen to nonsense like "infestors counter to colossus with NP," because it's not true at all. Colossus range is same as NP, if you see the NP thingy shooting out of the infestors just quickly target that infestor with your colossus. It dies in 3 colossus shots. In order for zerg to successfully NP you they have to essentially NP all of your colossus at the same time which is not going to happen if you have like... more than 3 colossus. And if the zerg somehow manages to pull that off just blink in a few stalkers to snipe a NPing infestor. Now with regards to chargelot/archon: this is a really situational composition, you can't make it work in all situations (like you can with stalker/HT or stalker/colossus). There's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just that roach hard counters it. Infestors just make it worse for you but aren't even necessary. You should only go chargelot/archon if you see your opponent insistent on not making roaches, such as if they go ling/bling/infestor, or you've done something like stargate play to force your opponent into making hydras and not roaches.
Bah, I was just hoping that there was an option that wasn't Colossus, getting tired of winning with them every game, need some diversity 
I understand though. The Colossi/Stalker/Sentry(/eventually VR) ball is tough and I recognize that. Surviving to the 3+ Colossi part while worrying about upgrades/keeping on top of macro part is what I'm working on. That and, like I said above, scouting and knowing when to push out.
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On August 16 2011 04:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 04:28 Anihc wrote:On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.
Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.
So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?
I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades? HT/archon is pretty much the same thing, since if you have 1 you will also have the other. So your question is colossus or templar tech? While a lot of it is personal preference, here's my take on it: Just go the colossus route. It's so much easier. Yes, stalker/immortal/HT/archon/sentry is a really strong composition and arguably it's better against roach/infestor that's extremely common nowadays. But it comes with the caveat that it is fucking hard to use effectively. You need to keep your army spread out so not everything gets fungaled, especially your spellcasters which can die really quickly to a few fungals if you're not careful. You have to use feedback well, and anyone who says HTs counter infestors hard due to feedback is obviously playing newbs who a-move their entire army and don't bother controlling their infestors (note: fungal vs feedback is just like EMP vs feedback, all range is 9 but since fungal/EMP has +2 radius you can fungal out of range of feedback). Then you have stalkers to blink, and sentries to use forcefields. On top of all of that you have to position your army carefully so that your immortals are near the front and your spellcasters are near the back, so that your spellcasters don't get instantly picked off while your immortals get stuck wandering behind stalkers that are fungaled so they can't blink out of the way. Meanwhile, if you go colossus all you have to do is a-move and win. Maybe lay down some forcefields before your sentries die. And don't listen to nonsense like "infestors counter to colossus with NP," because it's not true at all. Colossus range is same as NP, if you see the NP thingy shooting out of the infestors just quickly target that infestor with your colossus. It dies in 3 colossus shots. In order for zerg to successfully NP you they have to essentially NP all of your colossus at the same time which is not going to happen if you have like... more than 3 colossus. And if the zerg somehow manages to pull that off just blink in a few stalkers to snipe a NPing infestor. Now with regards to chargelot/archon: this is a really situational composition, you can't make it work in all situations (like you can with stalker/HT or stalker/colossus). There's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just that roach hard counters it. Infestors just make it worse for you but aren't even necessary. You should only go chargelot/archon if you see your opponent insistent on not making roaches, such as if they go ling/bling/infestor, or you've done something like stargate play to force your opponent into making hydras and not roaches. Bah, I was just hoping that there was an option that wasn't Colossus, getting tired of winning with them every game, need some diversity I understand though. The Colossi/Stalker/Sentry(/eventually VR) ball is tough and I recognize that. Surviving to the 3+ Colossi part while worrying about upgrades/keeping on top of macro part is what I'm working on. That and, like I said above, scouting and knowing when to push out.
No, I'm still saying that going the HT route is potentially better against roach/infestor than colossus. Just be prepared to be frustrated when you play against zergs who actually control their infestors (and completely roll zergs who don't).
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EPT
