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The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 21

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action.
ranshaked
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States870 Posts
August 15 2011 19:52 GMT
#401
Man I just had my ass handed to me in a PvZ. He went hydra/roach/infestor @2/2
I was immortal (6) chargelots, a few stalkers and some HT's. I was also 2/2. He hit 4 fungals on all of my zealots and immortals and literally wiped me clean. My HT's barely did anything against it. How can I beat these new infestors? I haven't won a single game against zerg if they go infestor. They will usually have 6 or so infestors+. I had 30 chargelots and they just were demolished
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 15 2011 19:56 GMT
#402
On August 16 2011 04:52 ranshaked wrote:
Man I just had my ass handed to me in a PvZ. He went hydra/roach/infestor @2/2
I was immortal (6) chargelots, a few stalkers and some HT's. I was also 2/2. He hit 4 fungals on all of my zealots and immortals and literally wiped me clean. My HT's barely did anything against it. How can I beat these new infestors? I haven't won a single game against zerg if they go infestor. They will usually have 6 or so infestors+. I had 30 chargelots and they just were demolished


Need replay. But general suggestions:

1) Zealots suck against roaches. Don't make any zealots unless the zerg makes lings.
2) Try colossus. If you're really anti-colossus you will just have to improve your micro, especially spellcaster control with feedback, storms, and forcefields (yes you should still have some sentries in your army for forcefield).
ranshaked
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States870 Posts
August 15 2011 20:03 GMT
#403
On August 16 2011 04:56 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 04:52 ranshaked wrote:
Man I just had my ass handed to me in a PvZ. He went hydra/roach/infestor @2/2
I was immortal (6) chargelots, a few stalkers and some HT's. I was also 2/2. He hit 4 fungals on all of my zealots and immortals and literally wiped me clean. My HT's barely did anything against it. How can I beat these new infestors? I haven't won a single game against zerg if they go infestor. They will usually have 6 or so infestors+. I had 30 chargelots and they just were demolished


Need replay. But general suggestions:

1) Zealots suck against roaches. Don't make any zealots unless the zerg makes lings.
2) Try colossus. If you're really anti-colossus you will just have to improve your micro, especially spellcaster control with feedback, storms, and forcefields (yes you should still have some sentries in your army for forcefield).

blah. I'm bored of colussus tbh :/ I remember why I quit the game now. Back to COD. Thanks for the advice, but this just doesn't entertain me when I keep losing. I can only beat protoss right now. I lose to terran in under 10 minutes every game to this one push, and then I lose to zerg with the infestors.

Thanks for the advice, but if that's what I pretty much have to do then this game will not be fun to me
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 15 2011 20:07 GMT
#404
On August 16 2011 05:03 ranshaked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 04:56 Anihc wrote:
On August 16 2011 04:52 ranshaked wrote:
Man I just had my ass handed to me in a PvZ. He went hydra/roach/infestor @2/2
I was immortal (6) chargelots, a few stalkers and some HT's. I was also 2/2. He hit 4 fungals on all of my zealots and immortals and literally wiped me clean. My HT's barely did anything against it. How can I beat these new infestors? I haven't won a single game against zerg if they go infestor. They will usually have 6 or so infestors+. I had 30 chargelots and they just were demolished


Need replay. But general suggestions:

1) Zealots suck against roaches. Don't make any zealots unless the zerg makes lings.
2) Try colossus. If you're really anti-colossus you will just have to improve your micro, especially spellcaster control with feedback, storms, and forcefields (yes you should still have some sentries in your army for forcefield).

blah. I'm bored of colussus tbh :/ I remember why I quit the game now. Back to COD. Thanks for the advice, but this just doesn't entertain me when I keep losing. I can only beat protoss right now. I lose to terran in under 10 minutes every game to this one push, and then I lose to zerg with the infestors.

Thanks for the advice, but if that's what I pretty much have to do then this game will not be fun to me


My advice was to use colossus, or keep going with gateway/HT/immortal but improve your micro. You're complaining that colossus is too easy but HT is too hard, so you quit? Good riddance.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
August 15 2011 20:10 GMT
#405
On August 16 2011 04:51 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 04:47 Requizen wrote:
On August 16 2011 04:28 Anihc wrote:
On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.

Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.

So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?

I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?


HT/archon is pretty much the same thing, since if you have 1 you will also have the other. So your question is colossus or templar tech? While a lot of it is personal preference, here's my take on it:

Just go the colossus route. It's so much easier.

Yes, stalker/immortal/HT/archon/sentry is a really strong composition and arguably it's better against roach/infestor that's extremely common nowadays. But it comes with the caveat that it is fucking hard to use effectively. You need to keep your army spread out so not everything gets fungaled, especially your spellcasters which can die really quickly to a few fungals if you're not careful. You have to use feedback well, and anyone who says HTs counter infestors hard due to feedback is obviously playing newbs who a-move their entire army and don't bother controlling their infestors (note: fungal vs feedback is just like EMP vs feedback, all range is 9 but since fungal/EMP has +2 radius you can fungal out of range of feedback). Then you have stalkers to blink, and sentries to use forcefields. On top of all of that you have to position your army carefully so that your immortals are near the front and your spellcasters are near the back, so that your spellcasters don't get instantly picked off while your immortals get stuck wandering behind stalkers that are fungaled so they can't blink out of the way.

Meanwhile, if you go colossus all you have to do is a-move and win. Maybe lay down some forcefields before your sentries die. And don't listen to nonsense like "infestors counter to colossus with NP," because it's not true at all. Colossus range is same as NP, if you see the NP thingy shooting out of the infestors just quickly target that infestor with your colossus. It dies in 3 colossus shots. In order for zerg to successfully NP you they have to essentially NP all of your colossus at the same time which is not going to happen if you have like... more than 3 colossus. And if the zerg somehow manages to pull that off just blink in a few stalkers to snipe a NPing infestor.

Now with regards to chargelot/archon: this is a really situational composition, you can't make it work in all situations (like you can with stalker/HT or stalker/colossus). There's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just that roach hard counters it. Infestors just make it worse for you but aren't even necessary. You should only go chargelot/archon if you see your opponent insistent on not making roaches, such as if they go ling/bling/infestor, or you've done something like stargate play to force your opponent into making hydras and not roaches.


Bah, I was just hoping that there was an option that wasn't Colossus, getting tired of winning with them every game, need some diversity

I understand though. The Colossi/Stalker/Sentry(/eventually VR) ball is tough and I recognize that. Surviving to the 3+ Colossi part while worrying about upgrades/keeping on top of macro part is what I'm working on. That and, like I said above, scouting and knowing when to push out.


No, I'm still saying that going the HT route is potentially better against roach/infestor than colossus. Just be prepared to be frustrated when you play against zergs who actually control their infestors (and completely roll zergs who don't).


Ah, I see. That'll be my next thing to work on, but I'd rather get my macro stronger and get out of the wood leagues before I throw myself into HT micro vs Infestor. Thanks for the replying!
It's your boy Guzma!
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
August 15 2011 20:57 GMT
#406
On August 16 2011 05:10 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 04:51 Anihc wrote:
On August 16 2011 04:47 Requizen wrote:
On August 16 2011 04:28 Anihc wrote:
On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.

Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.

So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?

I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?


HT/archon is pretty much the same thing, since if you have 1 you will also have the other. So your question is colossus or templar tech? While a lot of it is personal preference, here's my take on it:

Just go the colossus route. It's so much easier.

Yes, stalker/immortal/HT/archon/sentry is a really strong composition and arguably it's better against roach/infestor that's extremely common nowadays. But it comes with the caveat that it is fucking hard to use effectively. You need to keep your army spread out so not everything gets fungaled, especially your spellcasters which can die really quickly to a few fungals if you're not careful. You have to use feedback well, and anyone who says HTs counter infestors hard due to feedback is obviously playing newbs who a-move their entire army and don't bother controlling their infestors (note: fungal vs feedback is just like EMP vs feedback, all range is 9 but since fungal/EMP has +2 radius you can fungal out of range of feedback). Then you have stalkers to blink, and sentries to use forcefields. On top of all of that you have to position your army carefully so that your immortals are near the front and your spellcasters are near the back, so that your spellcasters don't get instantly picked off while your immortals get stuck wandering behind stalkers that are fungaled so they can't blink out of the way.

Meanwhile, if you go colossus all you have to do is a-move and win. Maybe lay down some forcefields before your sentries die. And don't listen to nonsense like "infestors counter to colossus with NP," because it's not true at all. Colossus range is same as NP, if you see the NP thingy shooting out of the infestors just quickly target that infestor with your colossus. It dies in 3 colossus shots. In order for zerg to successfully NP you they have to essentially NP all of your colossus at the same time which is not going to happen if you have like... more than 3 colossus. And if the zerg somehow manages to pull that off just blink in a few stalkers to snipe a NPing infestor.

Now with regards to chargelot/archon: this is a really situational composition, you can't make it work in all situations (like you can with stalker/HT or stalker/colossus). There's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just that roach hard counters it. Infestors just make it worse for you but aren't even necessary. You should only go chargelot/archon if you see your opponent insistent on not making roaches, such as if they go ling/bling/infestor, or you've done something like stargate play to force your opponent into making hydras and not roaches.


Bah, I was just hoping that there was an option that wasn't Colossus, getting tired of winning with them every game, need some diversity

I understand though. The Colossi/Stalker/Sentry(/eventually VR) ball is tough and I recognize that. Surviving to the 3+ Colossi part while worrying about upgrades/keeping on top of macro part is what I'm working on. That and, like I said above, scouting and knowing when to push out.


No, I'm still saying that going the HT route is potentially better against roach/infestor than colossus. Just be prepared to be frustrated when you play against zergs who actually control their infestors (and completely roll zergs who don't).


Ah, I see. That'll be my next thing to work on, but I'd rather get my macro stronger and get out of the wood leagues before I throw myself into HT micro vs Infestor. Thanks for the replying!

HT micro is super easy though, in my opinion. Feedback the Infestors, done. Nobody in "the woods" is going to have good Infestor control. Immortals (and FF) rock Roaches so hard.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
August 15 2011 21:01 GMT
#407
Does anyone have good replays of 1 gate expo vs 1/1/1? I'm used to dealing with it by just going gate/robo/gate expand, bay, 2 more gates, and then canceling nexus if my first obs scouts 1/1/1. If I couldn't get a scout in I'm pretty far behind against a terran who 1 rax no gas expanded and I'm thinking about switching to 1 gate expo as my standard.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
MuffinFTW
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States235 Posts
August 15 2011 22:22 GMT
#408
In PvP, how do you beat a Colossi army with charge? I'm even on bases with my opponent with equal harvesters, I try to go for archon chargelot. But it seems like if they have 3-4 Colossi, they'll automatically destroy my army.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
August 15 2011 22:25 GMT
#409
On August 16 2011 07:22 MuffinFTW wrote:
In PvP, how do you beat a Colossi army with charge? I'm even on bases with my opponent with equal harvesters, I try to go for archon chargelot. But it seems like if they have 3-4 Colossi, they'll automatically destroy my army.

Sounds like there are problems other than fighting off Colo/Charge. Problems like, letting them get Colo/Charge, and execution of your own build. I'd focus on those more. However if I were to see my opponent doing this, I'd just stockpile 5 Voidrays with +1 air attack, and win the game.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 22:44:18
August 15 2011 22:40 GMT
#410
On August 16 2011 07:22 MuffinFTW wrote:
In PvP, how do you beat a Colossi army with charge? I'm even on bases with my opponent with equal harvesters, I try to go for archon chargelot. But it seems like if they have 3-4 Colossi, they'll automatically destroy my army.


Collosus splash beats Archon splash, and the Archon costs 50-100 more gas (depending on whether you used HTs or DTs). Chargelots don't do much against a Collosi/Zealot mix, because they are just charging into other zealots that also only do damage in melee range.

If you are going Archon/Chargelot, you are banking that he is not going into Colossus heavy play, or that you are going to hit him before he has more than one. 1-base Colossi with Chronoboosts on robo takes up all of a player's gas income, so if you scout lots of gas-using Gateway units early, you can assume his Colossi will at least be delayed.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
CardinalSC
Profile Joined January 2011
United States145 Posts
August 15 2011 23:46 GMT
#411
How do you guys beat 9/10 pool openings? The zealot comes out way too late and I can't punish them if they just expand after.
SxYSpAz
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1451 Posts
August 15 2011 23:52 GMT
#412
please help me fellow protoss, i tell myself to split my army against infestors, but then the battle is about to happen and i herp derp
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 23:56:22
August 15 2011 23:52 GMT
#413
On August 16 2011 06:01 Drowsy wrote:
Does anyone have good replays of 1 gate expo vs 1/1/1? I'm used to dealing with it by just going gate/robo/gate expand, bay, 2 more gates, and then canceling nexus if my first obs scouts 1/1/1. If I couldn't get a scout in I'm pretty far behind against a terran who 1 rax no gas expanded and I'm thinking about switching to 1 gate expo as my standard.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379

On August 16 2011 08:46 CardinalSC wrote:
How do you guys beat 9/10 pool openings? The zealot comes out way too late and I can't punish them if they just expand after.


Chronoboost the gateway and bring probes if necessary. There's not much more to do as putting down a forge, complete wall in etc will put you behind. And if you surround the zergling when they get into your base you should be able to retreat some damaged probes with good micro.
I am Latedi.
Latedi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden1027 Posts
August 16 2011 00:00 GMT
#414
On August 16 2011 04:29 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 04:19 CecilSunkure wrote:
On August 16 2011 03:59 Requizen wrote:
So been doing well vs P and T lately, but having issues with Zerg.

Now, I know that it is completely necessary to have AoE in PvZ, as you can't outproduce Zerg after a certain point. After the timing attack window, I generally start considering what to tech to.

So our 3 AoE units are Archon, HT and Colossus. When is it correct to build which one? Or can I simply pick one that I like?

I've been trying Zealot/Archon(/Sentry) builds, but I keep getting rolled by Roach/Infestor type play. Is it just a build that you need to be a higher league to pull off, or is there something I'm missing, like upgrades?

Infestor/Roach dies really hard to Immortal/HT.

It sounds like you're just playing too passive waiting for big AoE units, and then you just get out-macroed.


That's entirely possible. I'm never quite sure when to push out, especially with scary things like Ling runbys or Roaches ready to sneak into my base after I leave. What's a good way to guage how "safe" I am to make an attack or poke? Or should I simply have better scouting and play passively to 200/200?


Being safe means you can get away after executing intended pressure without losing too many units. Units capable of chasing you down are sadly the most used units in the zerg arsenal, lings and roaches with speed upgrades, infestors (fungal) and mutas. Maybe I forgot something but hell I'm tired. Even if your opponent has some speed lings of course your army can still get awway if you have forcefields or enough firepower to take them down before other pesky units get there. A good example would be poking with a stalker before zergling speed is done and then retreating when the zerg has the ability to force combat. I hope this made any sense
I am Latedi.
Sansai
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria188 Posts
August 16 2011 01:53 GMT
#415
On August 16 2011 06:01 Drowsy wrote:
Does anyone have good replays of 1 gate expo vs 1/1/1? I'm used to dealing with it by just going gate/robo/gate expand, bay, 2 more gates, and then canceling nexus if my first obs scouts 1/1/1. If I couldn't get a scout in I'm pretty far behind against a terran who 1 rax no gas expanded and I'm thinking about switching to 1 gate expo as my standard.

is there alreay a recommended path to answer the typical 1/1/1 - marine/tank/ (medivac/banshee/raven)?

for me it is always a gamble, but often times i have gotten away with a FE
aUzi
Profile Joined December 2010
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:05:04
August 16 2011 01:58 GMT
#416
well the best way to hold of the 1/1/1 marine tank medivac or banshe or raven all in is this. You go for a 1 gate FE. as soon as you make your expansion add a robo then add 2 gate ways. What i usually do is skip the obsover and make 3 immortals right away. If you chrono right you may be able to make 4 immortals. The point is skip the obsover and use your stalkers to scout. Make zealots/2-4 sentries/immortals. try to get him to siege up in the middle of the map so u can delay his attack remmber. Get the robo out asap. and chorono immortals out! O yes i forgot to add. STEAL HIS GAS! if you do this the chance of a terran doing the 1/1/1 all-in is very slim. Even if he does try it when you gas steal it will be very delayed so you can get more units. Some people will say skiping the obsover is very dangerous because of cloak. guess what if you gas steal the reactor and tech labs will be delayed, the factory will be delayed and the cloak will be delayed. So overall if your a protoss and you are getting 1/1/1 All-ined ALOT! Steal the other persons gas!

P.S. im in masters and i fought this build alot on korean server since it orignated from there so i have some practice against it! =)
Shoot for the moon because even if you miss you will land among the stars!
SigmaX
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia44 Posts
August 16 2011 02:06 GMT
#417
Question - in late game Protoss - where should I be using my Chronoboost on?
I've seen it stockpile up quite significantly when i have multiple nexi (3/4). Atm, i'm only using it on Upgrades (blink, weapons/armours, etc)

Does anybody else have this problem? :S
My life for Pylo!
To3-Knee
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada100 Posts
August 16 2011 02:33 GMT
#418
On August 16 2011 11:06 SigmaX wrote:
Question - in late game Protoss - where should I be using my Chronoboost on?
I've seen it stockpile up quite significantly when i have multiple nexi (3/4). Atm, i'm only using it on Upgrades (blink, weapons/armours, etc)

Does anybody else have this problem? :S


My usual order of preference (if I've decided not to chrono probes) is upgrades -> robo/stargate -> warpgates.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 04:12:27
August 16 2011 04:12 GMT
#419
On August 16 2011 10:58 aUzi wrote:
well the best way to hold of the 1/1/1 marine tank medivac or banshe or raven all in is this. You go for a 1 gate FE. as soon as you make your expansion add a robo then add 2 gate ways. What i usually do is skip the obsover and make 3 immortals right away. If you chrono right you may be able to make 4 immortals. The point is skip the obsover and use your stalkers to scout. Make zealots/2-4 sentries/immortals. try to get him to siege up in the middle of the map so u can delay his attack remmber. Get the robo out asap. and chorono immortals out! O yes i forgot to add. STEAL HIS GAS! if you do this the chance of a terran doing the 1/1/1 all-in is very slim. Even if he does try it when you gas steal it will be very delayed so you can get more units. Some people will say skiping the obsover is very dangerous because of cloak. guess what if you gas steal the reactor and tech labs will be delayed, the factory will be delayed and the cloak will be delayed. So overall if your a protoss and you are getting 1/1/1 All-ined ALOT! Steal the other persons gas!

P.S. im in masters and i fought this build alot on korean server since it orignated from there so i have some practice against it! =)


"skiping the obsover" is a dumb risk to take, even if you steal his gas.
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
August 16 2011 04:14 GMT
#420
On August 16 2011 08:46 CardinalSC wrote:
How do you guys beat 9/10 pool openings? The zealot comes out way too late and I can't punish them if they just expand after.


9/10 pools arent hard to stop. Chrono your zealot, if u need to, pylon block your hole till zealot comes out, cancel pylon. you dont need a forge unless u are facing a 6 pool.
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
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