[G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) - Page 20

On September 13 2011 04:21 J.E.G. wrote:
Right so if you can snipe the raven (if it's even a raven build) they have to burn scans which makes the following pushes much weaker.

In the actual engagement, the raven is usually kept towards the back, so if you lead with the hallu immo's they are going to take a bunch of tank and marine fire before they enter into the raven's detection range.

Here's a replay; engagement is at about 12:00 (this isn't a good build, but shows the usefulness of hallu in the engagement vs raven): http://www.mediafire.com/?schgd45joa9ubuj

On August 24 2011 00:13 HazZerK wrote:
Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily.

This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.

On September 13 2011 03:49 Xanatoss wrote:


Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.

On September 13 2011 05:42 Skyro wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong but even if a hallucination is detected it will still trigger autoattacks if nothing else is in range right? So a hallucinated immortal still serves a purpose in charging in and soaking up initial tank fire.

Another interesting thing is if you do use phoenix to scout it may actually trick terrans into making AA like turrets and vikings. I've seen it happen quite a bit when I use my initial phoenix to scout when I open stargate vs terran. I think this is because researching hallucinate in PvT is pretty rare, unlike in PvZ (plus your phoenixes always end up autoattacking stray overlords that give it away anyway).

On September 13 2011 06:04 Xanatoss wrote:


You are right. But a leading Zealot would achive exactly the same without 100 Gas cost. Against a build where you die the moment you dont have enough stuff to deflect his push I dont think its useful to invest 100/100 into something that can be achived with 100/0 aswell. As said before, as soon as other stuff enters detection range (which is quite large with raven above marines) hallucinations are useless. Its not even that Units keep their target until it dies (like if you use shift-focus-commands), they switch target literally the moment anything real is in range. In worst case Immortals with their soon range 6 will block the engagement-path of your zealots and work against you. It might be a worthwile consideration for delayed pushes past the 10 Minute mark against a lot of tanks but I feel these are not as different to hold as earlier ones anyways.

The Idea about the hallucinated phoenix sounds good if you dont get any other form of scouting, but:
Against Banshee first 1/1/1 they might get suspicious why you dont attack their banshee with your phoenix and against Raven first you either fly right into it and get revealed by detection or they might be suspicious again why avoid the raven instead of attacking it. Even if they fall to belive you opened Stargate, i think it would in best case lead them just to build a Viking instead of another Banshee and push out sooner with a lot scv's pulled (like after first 2 tanks) assuming you are very weak on ground, which is actually harder to hold than later pushes if you FE (imho).

Edit: If you want to incorperate Hallucination what about creating phoenixes before the actual battle do burn up PDD-Energy really fast by their double-shots. Does that work?

On September 13 2011 06:51 Skyro wrote:


Hallucination does seem worth it to me for its cost though if you actually have enough sentries to spare the energy. The whole "why is he not targeting my banshees thing" isn't that big a deal because standard 1-gate star timing your phoenix will be at his base before his first stargate unit pops out anyway.

Hallucinations do burn PDD energy last I checked but PDD really only affects stalkers, and you really should have a minimal amount of stalkers when the push actually comes. You want to clean up all the marines and tanks first and then use a round of warp-ins to take down any leftover banshees. In that scenario you can just use your sentries to burn the PDD if needed.

I think I'm going to try out hallucination vs 1-1-1 and see how it works out. In my mind I think hallucinating Immortals would work best since you would be mixing them up with real immortals and it's not as obvious they are fake (like archons or colossi would be).

On September 13 2011 06:41 J.E.G. wrote:
But you still have said immortal/zealot after your hallu's tank all that damage isntead of your actual units dying to the first round of tank volleys.

About hallu vs PDD: It should work, according to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170822 so maybe go hallu phoenix isntead of immo if there is a raven?

I really think Hallu is a good way to go as it cheaply (in both cost and supply) can soak up a ton of dps, which is what makes 1-1-1 so strong. The trick is in having enough sentries w/ energy to make enough hallu's for them to be effective, which again can make your opener much weaker vs other terran builds

EDIT: Also, I haven't had much luck going for hallu phoenix scout. It hits too late to change anything and delays the robo too much.

On September 13 2011 07:08 Xanatoss wrote:


Just tested it, hallu phoenix burns PDD-Energy.
Actually a lot of Sentries is very good against most other openings like 2/3 Rax or Mass Marines and most FE-Builds get them anyways early on.
With the addition of said Phoenixes to burn PDD's it might actually be worth to invest into Hallucination. My skepticism was grounded on the fact that an engagement lead by Hallucinations would swallow just the first volley, which means 2-4 tankshots. A Zealot can eat 4 tankshots aswell before it dies. So you invested 100/100 (Hallu) or 100/0 (Zealot) to avoid 2-4 tankshots. Its obvious which one appears to be better. But with an additional return of investment (depleting the pdd) the balance swings back into Hallucinations favor even when you get it early on.

There you got it TL. Someone changed his oppinion through a forum! The internet will collapse.

On September 13 2011 07:59 J.E.G. wrote:
But it's not an either or situation for zealot vs. hallu, its zealot+hallu, and you can get 3 or 4 immortals or 6-8 hallucinated zealots.

Also, if you go immortals, their hardened shield reduces tank damage to 20 (idk why 20 and not 10, but check the replay i posted and this is the case). So, one hallu immo can tank 9 tank shots (5 while having 100 shields, 4 more to kill its 200 health). This means 3 hallucinated immortals tank 27 tank shots. and i'd say thats worth 100/100.

EDIT: I see what you mean about them only tanking a few shots with the raven there.

On September 22 2011 16:08 bankai wrote:
Have a question!

In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.

I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).

My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.

On September 22 2011 16:29 HaruRH wrote:


you didn't read the whole post, did you?

OP stated clearly that the 2 initial sentries is to stop any 2 rax. That should be enough I guess.

On September 23 2011 08:55 bankai wrote:


no need to be rude.....

Perhaps i didnt frame my question very well. Will try again.

I want to clarify - do you have to commit to 1gaterobo-FE or 2gaterobo builds before you confirm its 1-1-1? In the OP "Scouting" section, it sounds like after using ur scouting probe, unless you are lucky and see a marauder or something, there are often times when you think there is a chance of 1-1-1 but not sure until the obs reaches their base.

But by the time the obs reaches the base, you must have already committed to an opening build. The OP does say that if you know its 2rax, then 1gaterobo-FE is not optimal, even though you would be able to hold it off with the 2sentries.

So to summarise my questions are:
1) Do you basically have to commit to a build before confirming its 1-1-1?
2) If I always open 2gaterobo and expand on 36supply (assuming no terran interuption), then if it turns out to be 1-1-1, will my expansion be too delayed to hold it off?

Thanks and sorry if there is something said about this already. Reading the OP i didnt see the answer to this but i may have overlooked.

On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote:
I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.

I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.

Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.

On September 24 2011 23:59 kcdc wrote:


Not too badly. I save up a lot of chrono so that I can get hallucination really fast to see cloak researching as early as possible. The cannons are there to tide me over until I can get an observer, and the cannon's detection range is actually pretty good. I sim-city my main for hellion harass at the start of every game anyway, so in the short window without mobile detection, I don't have a lot of vulnerable structures. Hallucination+forge is less efficient against a cloak rush into an all-in than going straight to robo, but I still like it better because:

(1) Most of the time, they don't research cloak, and it's better against the more common builds
(2) Hallucination gets you a full scout earlier than robo
(3) It allows you access to fast upgrades if T isn't going all-in
(4) Beyond just offering detection, the cannons are very helpful for shutting down harass