|
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote:
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
|
On August 30 2011 00:56 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote:
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ?? There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build. There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
|
Pretty much feel you have to 1g fe to hold this. I am top masters and i would say that pvt is my best match up, i do wat the op's guide says, make zealot stalker sentry and pump out immortals. I generally make 2 obs 1 for his base 1 for mine, maintain about a +2 stalker count to banshee (if he has 2 banshees ill have 4 stalkers if he has 3 ill have 5) control group 1 for stalkers. Then control group 2 for zealots and sentries. Control 3 for immortals. Have good spread, delay as much as possible by forcing early seige (by either engaging early or ffing, terran cant really engage your army without seiging), and DONOT let the tanks seige where he can shel at any crucial structures. From that point keep warping units chrono gates and robo for immortals.
Position stalkers, zealotsandsentries, and immortals so that u create a good arc and usually ill wait until the last possible moment to send in zealots with guardian and the immortals (positioned to be as close to tanks as possible). Then forcefield so your zealots hit the marines and focus fire immortals on tanks. Focus fire banshee with stalkers and sentries. Alot of waiting until the last moment is seeing what units he has and what i have and judging when is the right moment or last possible moment to engage.
But i guess the biggest problem is that you need to 1 gate fe which is countered by a simple 3 rax or a 2rax with scvs. 2 rax can be held with 1 rax fe but its very tricky and a bit luck based. If he pulled enough scvs he can start bunkering at ur expo and thats a pain to deal with.
I also do a 1g1robo expo sometimes if im not sure but i sense that the terran is up to something fishy. If 1grobo could hold off 2 rax safely then i would be doing it every tvp. Maybe theres a way to make it work with the immortal range buff.
|
On August 30 2011 01:03 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 00:56 QTIP. wrote:On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote:
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ?? There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build. There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid. True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
Sorry - I should have clarified.
The coinflip is where:
To defeat 1-1-1 you must
a) 15 Nexus
b) 1 Gate FE
But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well.
Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE.
Hence the small luck factor.
I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits.
|
|
|
I've had some moderate success with this build, although usually when I win it's because the Terran made a mistake or was using an odd variation. Like say I'll face the regular variation on Shattered and the Terran lets me engage his army unsieged, or I played a Thor variation on Shakuras, it delayed his push by a good minute and a half and I just CRUSHED him when he tried to push.
|
On August 30 2011 03:40 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:03 Squigly wrote:On August 30 2011 00:56 QTIP. wrote:On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote:
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ?? There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build. There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid. True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard. Sorry - I should have clarified. The coinflip is where: To defeat 1-1-1 you must a) 15 Nexus b) 1 Gate FE But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well. Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE. Hence the small luck factor. I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits.
Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker.
So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
|
Not being able to scout terran is the whole problem with them now at the moment. You can't reliably get information before you have observers at which point you are already behind against a few builds. Large maps are alright as 1 gate FE is completely safe there but smaller maps T just has the advantage of being able to do a random build and get lucky wins sometimes, if P guesses correctly what T is doing T is usually not that far behind anyways.
|
On August 30 2011 04:17 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:40 QTIP. wrote:On August 30 2011 01:03 Squigly wrote:On August 30 2011 00:56 QTIP. wrote:On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote:
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ?? There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build. There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid. True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard. Sorry - I should have clarified. The coinflip is where: To defeat 1-1-1 you must a) 15 Nexus b) 1 Gate FE But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well. Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE. Hence the small luck factor. I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits. Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker. So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
It's quite depressing when you put it like that - but I have to agree with you.Terrans have realized how reliant we are on the scouting information provided from the initial probe scout and Stalker Poke... expect to see more deception. (Tricking us into overreacting and blindly cutting probes etc.)
|
On August 30 2011 04:23 Markwerf wrote:
Not being able to scout terran is the whole problem with them now at the moment. You can't reliably get information before you have observers at which point you are already behind against a few builds. Large maps are alright as 1 gate FE is completely safe there but smaller maps T just has the advantage of being able to do a random build and get lucky wins sometimes, if P guesses correctly what T is doing T is usually not that far behind anyways.
I agree - The 1-1-1 requires very specific responses that can be Build Order losses, or just inefficient builds vs anything other than a 1-1-1.
|
Maybe with the immortal range buff protoss can finally have a somewhat consistent counter against this build. Now I feel like you can lose even if you are 100% prepared and don't even make major mistakes.
|
Decided to put up some rough examples of the approach with 1gate FE zealot/immortal
+ Show Spoiler [Replays] +
Not fully refined yet.
Don't need as much gas as I take. Little more micro required if more scv's are pulled. But the engagement tactics are pretty straightforward, including guardian shield on zealots during the attack, immortals on tanks, stalkers tanks/banshees. You can do a better job than I did on forcefielding behind the rines. Mid masters.
|
On August 30 2011 06:19 Vapaach wrote:
Maybe with the immortal range buff protoss can finally have a somewhat consistent counter against this build. Now I feel like you can lose even if you are 100% prepared and don't even make major mistakes.
It will certainly make it nice (less retarded shuffling) for the Immortal, but it really comes down to whether or not you have enough to clean up what's typically left - Marines and Banshees. Whenever a player loses to a 1-1-1 despite preparing for it, its always the Marines and Banshees running rampant at the very end before the "gg". Immortals can't help much in that regard.
|
Thanks for the guide. This build is the reason I've stopped laddering, the only time I've held it (diamond toss) is when the Terran was floating 1.5k when he sieged at my natrual rofl. 1.5k on one base.. T_T
|
On August 31 2011 02:05 Trowa127 wrote:
Thanks for the guide. This build is the reason I've stopped laddering, the only time I've held it (diamond toss) is when the Terran was floating 1.5k when he sieged at my natrual rofl. 1.5k on one base.. T_T
Hopefully this guide can be helpful. ^^
|
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I apologise if this has been answered somewhere on this thread but:
When I 1-gate-robo-expand I have massive difficulties holding my natural. Given the Terran is at least somewhat sneaky with denying your scouting, can you hold the natural vs 2 rax? If so, how should I go about it?
|
On August 31 2011 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
I apologise if this has been answered somewhere on this thread but:
When I 1-gate-robo-expand I have massive difficulties holding my natural. Given the Terran is at least somewhat sneaky with denying your scouting, can you hold the natural vs 2 rax? If so, how should I go about it?
Taken from earlier in the thread:
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax (up your ramp) until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now for a safe 2 gate Robo), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit - or cancel if its already building. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
|
you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this..
why?
1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ
2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up.
I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true..
i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time.
the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also  )
1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
|
On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote:you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this.. why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up. I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time. the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also ) 1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
The problem with going 3 Gate Robo is what happens if he is actually going 1 or 2 Rax expand? You can't tell based on your scouting Probe, and if he's really clever you won't be able to tell based on your poking Stalker either.
Meanwhile, he'll notice that you haven't taken your expansion at the normal 1 Gate FE timing and he'll be sure to bunker his expansion and have SCVs ready in case you try to break him with Immortals.
3 Gate Robo can't keep up with current Terran macro builds.
|
that depends on how fast they expand, if they build the exp in their base chances are you can get a sentry to block the ramp every time they try to come down, allowing you to throw up an exp and get on 2 base whilst they are stuck on 1 until you break the contain.. if you scout a bunker on the low ground with your inital stalker then just expand and play a normal game..
anyway replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12512
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12511
i can add more upon request, i am sure i have faced it more than twice recently lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/12hIz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NXavC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZLFDZ.jpg)
