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On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote:
Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything.
What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
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I'd been *accidentally* stumbling upon the 4 gates + robo difference w/ probe cuts as the most high success rate I've ever had against the scv/marine/tank/banshee(+raven) 1base allin. This was primarily done off a kcdc 1gas 1gate expand zealot-stalker-stalker but I see how your preferred open could have the edge in the line of competing build orders.
Again I say, stalkers are BAD to mass against this EVEN IF HE HAS 2 Banshees all over. As few stalkers as possible, all chronos on production buildings, don't get supply capped, cut probes. You did a very good job of detailing the important steps OP! Like the write-up keep helping Toss overcome all the weird stuff Terran throws at us!
I mean this post was mostly old hat to me, but who knows, next Terran allin I might hit upon the 10 ways to NOT beat it before reading another post by you =P
***Edit for Anihc***
From battle.net PTR thread retrieved 8/25/2011
Bug Fixes
~//~
* Protoss
~//~
Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
I don't exactly know what was incorrect about its damage reduction before but it's listed in there as a bug fix.
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Is getting hallucination to soak up damage and/or burning PDD a viable way to stop the 1-1-1?
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Some minor additions, I've found useful regarding BO, chrono-boost-usage and engagement
Once you spot their 111 with zealot/stalker-poke (I really started doing it always when I'm not sure if 111 will come) - start saving chrono-boost!
Only spend chrono-boost on the robotics and try to never have the robotics produce "un-chronoed". Throw down two more additional gateways (to make it 5) as soon as you can - you only need 4 stalkers at that point (2 for each mineral line to be 100% safe vs banshees).
Having 5 warpgates as early as possible instead of 3 is much more important than having constant production out of the already existing warpgates. You don't need many zealots at this point anyways.
Engagement: you have to force the first engagement at a good distance away from your natural. I found that vs good players you can't usually kill them at this point. The following is important: try to focus all your attention on killing the tanks; now when your stuff starts dying and things are starting to look not so good: warp in from all 5 warpgates and chrono-boost all of them - if you haven't wasted too much chrono-boosts before, the 2 nexi should provide enough. Wait for the second round of warp-ins, pull ALL your probes from the natural and go attack with what should be one immortal (produced/rallied while the first fight occured) 10 warpgate-units (composition depends on how many banshees they had or are still alive) and ~14-16 probes.
If you managed to kill "some" tanks in the first engagement, this will make their "follow-up-push" much weaker. Which is why NOW the probes are really starting to be effective. If you pull the probes when they have all tanks sieged up, then they...just die in one blast. If you pull the probes vs the follow-up after the first engagement, then some/most of them "should" reach the marines.
If I get a good game where neither I nor my opponent screws up I'll post it...
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On August 25 2011 16:48 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote:
Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented? Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything. What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
This:
Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
Edit- I guess they never explicitly said it's an improvement but I imagine it will be.
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On August 25 2011 17:27 Kishin2 wrote:
Is getting hallucination to soak up damage and/or burning PDD a viable way to stop the 1-1-1?
You can burn the PDD quicker, but a Raven will prevent your Hallu from soaking up damage. Not very viable unfortunately, unless you are 100% sure a Raven is not present.
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On August 25 2011 16:48 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote:
Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented? Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything. What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
Immortal range upgrade will definitely be of help against the 1-1-1 and will generally help them be "less retarded" in all situations. However, I agree that it's not going to drastically change anything. I was surprised to hear that Guardian Shield wasn't functioning properly vs Tank Splash, but of course, anything that helps your units live longer vs Terran Army DPS will be beneficial in breaking the 1-1-1.
I don't see Rax build time being too much of a factor. I guess on large maps like Tal'Darim / Antiga, the likelihood of getting more information before a Marine pops out to deny scouting increases? I'm not entirely sure how much this will help. Again - it's not much of a game changer.
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On August 25 2011 16:41 RabidSeagull wrote:
Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
Yes - once banshee numbers get high, Stalkers do much worse vs. them. Phoenix are the appropriate response against crazy shit like 2 port banshee.
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Just had a game where I scouted a researching techlab on the starport, so I added 2 more stalker and obs. But I didn't check all his base to see his 2nd port and I thought he was going for bio follow-up. Instead he rolled me with banshees and raven. I guess at that point something like phoenix and chargelots with forge upgrades should work pretty well.
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Hmmmm I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but how should I deal with a 1/1/1 push that comes after they take their expansion? Should I be trying to get some collosi out if the attack is delayed by that much or should i still be going 4gimmo?
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Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
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On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote:
Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
Y u no 3 gate SG?
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On August 28 2011 11:31 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote:
Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options? Y u no 3 gate SG?
I dont want to.
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On August 28 2011 11:32 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:31 Techno wrote:On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote:
Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options? Y u no 3 gate SG? I dont want to.
If you know from the start this is coming, you would be hurting yourself to not go 3 Gate Stargate. 4 gate can work if you do it properly and attack in a good area. 3 gate robo would probably do alright but I havent really seen it. Other than that I just say do yourself a favour and make a void ray.
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On August 28 2011 11:37 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 11:32 Squigly wrote:On August 28 2011 11:31 Techno wrote:On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote:
Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options? Y u no 3 gate SG? I dont want to. If you know from the start this is coming, you would be hurting yourself to not go 3 Gate Stargate. 4 gate can work if you do it properly and attack in a good area. 3 gate robo would probably do alright but I havent really seen it. Other than that I just say do yourself a favour and make a void ray.
Okay i really want to beat it with a robo but since voids roll it so hard......
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On August 28 2011 08:29 Techno wrote:Technos guide to defending the 1-1-1: Void Ray All In. Replay 1Replay 2
Didn't work too well for Incontrol vs Trimaster.
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On August 26 2011 03:49 QTIP. wrote:
Immortal range upgrade will definitely be of help against the 1-1-1 and will generally help them be "less retarded" in all situations. However, I agree that it's not going to drastically change anything. I was surprised to hear that Guardian Shield wasn't functioning properly vs Tank Splash, but of course, anything that helps your units live longer vs Terran Army DPS will be beneficial in breaking the 1-1-1.
I don't see Rax build time being too much of a factor. I guess on large maps like Tal'Darim / Antiga, the likelihood of getting more information before a Marine pops out to deny scouting increases? I'm not entirely sure how much this will help. Again - it's not much of a game changer.
Immortal range upgrade will change a lot, actually. Most people are happy that they now won't get stuck behind stalkers, but what they're missing is they now won't get stuck in front of the stalkers. They line up with the stalkers now which means it's trivial to micro them out if the Terran tries to focus them, especially with 5 range marines.
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For those tosses who feel they need to squeeze out the absolute maximum amount of units in a short window of time - have you tried warping in, changing to normal gateway, producing a unit then swapping it back to warp gate and warping in another?
It'll give you a boost of units and it actually nets you a larger amount aswell because warp cools down while you're creating units from a normal gateway. Unless they changed the warpgate->gateway animation to be >20 seconds, I'm pretty sure you gain a net increase in unit count microing your production like that.
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On August 28 2011 15:21 iko wrote:
For those tosses who feel they need to squeeze out the absolute maximum amount of units in a short window of time - have you tried warping in, changing to normal gateway, producing a unit then swapping it back to warp gate and warping in another?
It'll give you a boost of units and it actually nets you a larger amount aswell because warp cools down while you're creating units from a normal gateway. Unless they changed the warpgate->gateway animation to be >20 seconds, I'm pretty sure you gain a net increase in unit count microing your production like that.
This does not work for zealots, which I think is the unit most people are spamming. Zealots are 28 second cooldown with WG and 38 seconds to build with gateways. Warping in three zealots with WG takes 56 seconds, doing it by switching takes 58 seconds. (warpin, 10 second transition, 38 second build time, 10 second transition, warpin) With stalkers the benefit is minimal, it's 64 seconds for 3 stalkers from a warpgate but 62 seconds while switching. Only sentries offer any kind of bonus here, 64 seconds for straight WG to get 3 out while you can do it in 57 seconds via switching.
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EPT
