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On August 23 2011 10:03 pezzaperry wrote:
Lately this has happened to me 2 or 3 times and I was wondering what your answer to it is: I scout early marauder pressure from 1 rax (usually destroy it, it comes with 2 marines and 1 marauder usually). But then after that 1 marauder they transition into a 1-1-1 with banshees/tanks/marines. This confuses me a lot and I don't pump out immortals or build as many units as I do when handling a 1-1-1...
I think it's the correct response when seeing a marauder to try to gain economy rather than army supply, so how do you deal with the lack of scouting in between your first ob and your probe?
FYI: I use a 3gate expand, this could be a problem as my first observer comes significantly later (7-8minutes in).
While 3 gate expanding in response to marauder is definitely a good move (you have late obs, but their tech is later as well), you definitely need some sort of scouting in between probe and obs. You should be aggressive with a 3 gate expand especially if the terran tries some sort of early pressure, and poke up the ramp with a zealot or something. If you see a low bio count you should know something fishy is going on.
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Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily.
This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227830.jpg)
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On August 24 2011 00:13 HazZerK wrote:Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily. This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.
It's funny isn't it? Stalkers are so shit vs 1-1-1.
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On August 23 2011 10:26 juw wrote:
Ok how about we leave scouting aside for the moment. If you 100% sure the all in is coming, I think the best response is stay on one base and rush for:
- 2 collosi with thermal lance. Zealots out of 3 gates
- 4 gate blink: Harassment and kiting marines. May be weak against cloak though.
My experience in mid masters is this:
2 base is only good if the push is delayed. Terran can get to your base as early as 8:45 and even earlier if he doesnt wait for siege. If the terran sees the expansion, he can just push out with unsieged tanks soon after the first banshee is done. Unsieged tanks still have good DPS and if protoss expanded or went pheonix, there wont be enough gateway units to deal with the marines and scvs.
This is completely incorrect. Especially about having 2 colossus with Thermal Lance, and 3 pumping gateways when this push comes.
Please consult this thread to see why your theories are not viable.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589
In regards to 4 Gate Blink -- I cover it in my alternative methods section. If you want to open with Blink, you are picking a tech path without any scouting, so yes you will be very weak to cloaked banshees.
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probably the easiest to execute strat against the 1/1/1. Nice guide, i like to throw in 1 or 2 lonely zealots that run into the base of the opponent when they are midway of the map and don't leave anything behind except scvs. (even investing in a prism sometimes if the map allows it)
A terran will focus the sentrys first with the banshees, stalkers with the tanks and then start to micro the marines. So other then the guide i use a few immortals in the front so marines will do attack them first and do no damage to the zealots (well aware that if the terran won't focus banshees and tanks will rape the immos, but that means you will most likely win, as the tanks will attack the front zealots next heh).
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Can someone outline me a refined version of the 1/1/1 that arrives at 9:30 with a raven? If I have 4 rax, 1 Fact 1 Port, how many units am I expected to have at that particular time? Lately, with my 1-1-1 I have not really payed attention to timing or builds. I just make marines tanks banshees and a single raven.
How many tanks should I have? How many banshees? And most importantly, how many marines?
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High diamond/Low Masters, did a 3 gate expand contain, then chronod out immortals and basically just added alot of zealots. He goes all in with all his scvs, I pull 10-15 probes pop guardian and split immortals to target tanks and clean up with minimal losses. Opening really sloppy with supply block, was just not focused I guess haha. Can add to the OP its what your looking for, since I read this guide Ive held it quite well twice.
http://drop.sc/29079
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Nooby question alert.
I wrote a pretty long post but I decided to simply ask some shorter questions before I waste anyone's time with an in-depth post. I'm still learning the complexities of the game so I figure you guys could help.
What are the benefits to getting a robo after only 1 gate or 1 gate expand? Aren't you immediately committing to a 1/1/1 counter the second the robo goes down? I know a fast obs helps but isn't a probe scout for early unit comp then a stalker scout at 5mins for another unit comp scout good enough until the 7:50+ mark?
In relation to the early robo, at what point do you realize that the terran is committed to the 1/1/1 and even if he does a fast tech switch won't be able to apply early pressure until the 9:15 mark? Is this realization before you drop the robo? My current weakness is the timings of things clearly.
I've played around with some builds that yield very similar unit comps to your build at 9:15 but seem to provide more flexibility when not dealing with a 1/1/1 I could be bsing though because I don't understand enough about the scouting of terran and their respective timings.
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Essentially the big scouting problem is that you need either a phoenix, hallucination or observer (or an all-in) or you will not be able to tell the difference between a 1/1/1 and rax->gas->marine 1port cloaked banshees. Poking the front with small numbers of units is insufficient because a smart terran will want to show 4 marines in a bunker only, and keep the rest of their units well back from the wall.
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Okay, understandable. So, the risk you take getting a fast obs means you can die to super early pressure but ensures you will be ready for anything the terran throws at you after 7 or so minutes. Where as the risk you take delaying the observer is a misread but at least you will make it past the early game? I guess with large rush distances 1 gate robo could hold off most pressure, my issue then is 1/1/1 on maps such as close/air metal and shattered, xelnaga etc. Is it best right now to just allin the terran when at such close positions?
I feel something like HuK style FE on 22 (get stalker before nexus) -> 2 more gates -> robo -> gate gives me a much better hold of the early game while blindly transitioning to the same production facilities and unit comp at 9:15 as QTIP (i have 4 more zealots + a warpin unit but 1 less immortal, second one is at 33% and I have 3 chronoboosts to his 0). The downside is my 7:45 obs.
Blame my naivety but it feels like I can hold anything or at worst case scout a 3rax as he's moving out and the composition at 9:15 does fairly well against a lot of 1 base terran play no?
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thx for this cool guide, good writen and also the scouting part helped me alot 
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I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
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On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote:
I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky.
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On August 25 2011 03:06 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote:
I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure. Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky.
I think he only had a couple of sentries and a Stalker at the front whilst warping in Zealots at home. I also know that he scouted the CC a bit later on so that might of affected his decision to stay at the front for so long (untill it was impossible due to tank fire). It's hard to say anything more about it since I have no replay to look back at.
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would it be smart to "hide" your immortals outside your base so when he scans he doesn't see them, and when the tanks siege behind the marines the immortals will do much more damage to the tanks while the zealots/sentries own the marines?
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On August 25 2011 06:22 RespectedPuddle wrote:
would it be smart to "hide" your immortals outside your base so when he scans he doesn't see them, and when the tanks siege behind the marines the immortals will do much more damage to the tanks while the zealots/sentries own the marines?
I'm not sure how effective hiding your immortals from a scan is... regardless of whether or not you have immortals, they are going to 1-1-1 you anyway. I'm just not sure if hiding them gives you any special advantage. Putting your immortals to the side and executing a flank can greatly increase your chances of busting the Terran's contain though -- so yes I like your idea about Zealots / Sentries vs Marines + Immortal vs Tank.
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On August 25 2011 05:33 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 03:06 QTIP. wrote:On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote:
I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure. Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky. I think he only had a couple of sentries and a Stalker at the front whilst worping in Zealots at home. I also know that he scouted the CC a bit later on so that might of affected his decision to stay at the front for so long (untill it was impossible due to tank fire). It's hard to say anything more about it since I have no replay to look back at.
Yeah too bad we don't know for sure. I think I'm just really paranoid of Helions right now. lol.
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Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
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Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
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On August 25 2011 16:41 RabidSeagull wrote:
Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
Yes phoenix is necessary against large number of banshees. This could come from 2 port banshees, or just a delayed push with 4+ banshees. Even if you don't scout it until you see the army leaving his base, it's still not too late to throw up the stargate. I have been in situations where after the battle I have 8 zealots left but he has 3 banshees with another 1 coming. My stargate just finishes as the battle is over but I'm able to chrono out a phoenix to save my base.
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EPT
