EPT[G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) - Page 14
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drybones
United States69 Posts
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DMKraft
476 Posts
 . I am not a pro, I am a terran scrub  . Just asking a question. | ||
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SpearWrit
United States300 Posts
Do you have a replay of performing this build, but scouting a 2 rax Bio build instead and responding accordingly (and ultimately winning)? I just want something to visually see, but if you don't I will understand and will not expect you to go out of your way to search for it. | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
i do fine against this now unless i od on the stalkers or do something else retarded.. if you scout a 1 rax cc instead harass with your wp (don't lose it!) build an imo before nex and push the nat as well as dropping the back.. you should be in a great position for the mid game as long as you don't suicide and obviously if you scout an all in build a bunch of zealots and immos (unless there are no tanks or marauders, in which case just roflstomp) oh and followup includes cols, stalkers, and whatever counters his build, you should have the gas saved to do whatever you want, drop second gas after nex.. | ||
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hasuterrans
United States614 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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palanq
United States761 Posts
if you stop at 6 probes on gas, 29 on minerals you get approximately 1230m/230g per minute. constant chrono on immortals gives you 55sec/1.5 chronoboost factor = 36 sec/immortal = 1.6 immo/minute which costs (250m+100g)*1.6 = 400/160, leaving 800 min for 8 zeals from 4 warpgates per minute. your 2 nexus give you 67.5 energy/minute so you can't quite constantly chronoboost immortals, but it's pretty close, especially if you're beginning this production cycle routine with some chrono saved up your surplus from this production is about 30m, 70g, so you can get the occasional sentry and throw down a 5th gate eventually. however, IF you are building pylons too (and not trading your army with T) then you'll have to build more sentry and pylons. only if your macro is imperfect or you stop immortal production will you be able to afford stalkers. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left. If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early. If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game. 1-1-1 is no scarier than 4-gate was in its day. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 22 2011 23:47 palanq wrote: some theorycraft shows that this build works out: if you stop at 6 probes on gas, 29 on minerals you get approximately 1230m/230g per minute. Edit: I was a numpty :D | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:45 marvellosity wrote: It's a shame you have no idea what you're talking about. First 16 probes will mine optimally at ~40 minerals per minute = 640 Next 8 will mine subobtimally at ~20 = 160 Further probes mine nothing. Total mineral income = 800/min, give or take. you're on 2 bases | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Palanq is right, and is also why anyone that says 1 base or go 2 gate robo into expand is completely wrong. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
In the scouting section, you claim that if the gas finishes before rax, he is favoring tech. This is incorrect.. With the standard 12 rax 13 gas, the gas will finish before rax, and this tells you literally nothing about his build. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:32 DaemonX wrote: My take is to quickly take a quick second gas and cut down on sentry stalker, and get a quick robo for scouting. If you confirm 1-1-1, slap down a stargate and harass / scout with phoenix while massing zeals and as many immortals as you can chrono out. When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left. If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early. If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game. 1-1-1 is no scarier than 4-gate was in its day. Doing a split tech path is the absolute worst possible thing you could do against 1/1/1. You are wasting a minimum of 400 gas on structures and units that don't shoot at anything. 1 gate robo and then waiting for obs scout on his base to decide what to do loses to literally everything. If he went for fast expo, you're critically behind, if he went for 1/1/1, you don't have the resources/production to hold it off, if he did 3 rax your observer won't even get there before he shows up and kills you. 3 gate robo might beat the 3 rax, but it certainly won't beat this allin nor will it beat any kind of expansion opening. You need to understand - YOU CANNOT BEAT 1/1/1 ON ONE BASE. It is not possible, you must expand. You may hold off the first wave, but the second or third will kill you. Because of mules, every second you and a Terran both sit on one base you are getting further and further behind. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 23 2011 01:28 Pokebunny wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but: In the scouting section, you claim that if the gas finishes before rax, he is favoring tech. This is incorrect.. With the standard 12 rax 13 gas, the gas will finish before rax, and this tells you literally nothing about his build. Thanks for mentioning - I meant to put "starts gas before rax" | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:32 DaemonX wrote: My take is to quickly take a quick second gas and cut down on sentry stalker, and get a quick robo for scouting. If you confirm 1-1-1, slap down a stargate and harass / scout with phoenix while massing zeals and as many immortals as you can chrono out. When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left. If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early. If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game. 1-1-1 is no scarier than 4-gate was in its day. 4-gate was easily stoppable with solid scouting information. In the 1-1-1's you've seen in the past two months, how many tosses are completely caught off guard by the push? Toss players either scout it and prepare for it (still get crushed) or blindly prepare for it with 1 Gate Expo's or 15 Nexus builds. It's an entirely different issue. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 22 2011 15:09 SpearWrit wrote: Hi QTIP, Do you have a replay of performing this build, but scouting a 2 rax Bio build instead and responding accordingly (and ultimately winning)? I just want something to visually see, but if you don't I will understand and will not expect you to go out of your way to search for it. I haven't had much time to ladder recently so I don't have any saved replays of this - my apologies. However, I have transitioned safely out of it when unexpectedly hit by a 2 rax. 1 Stalker + 2 Sentries can easily stop a 2rax from busting your ramp. The main concern is how long they can delay your expo. Sometimes I'll throw down a second gate immediately once scouting a 2 rax, and other times I'll instead try to get out an immortal quickly if they are trying to bunker me etc. An Immortal + 2nd gate allows for some weird pressure timings you can put on the Terran when they are trying to secure their expo, but I haven't experimented with it enough to gauge its effectiveness. At the end of the day though, 1 gate - FE - 2 more gates is the best way to deal with a 2 rax in my opinion. You can stop the 2 rax with a high %, and turn the tables to put pressure back on your Terran opponent. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:23 s0uljah wrote: One thing i do in every P v T now is to just gas steal every terrans. For 75 minerals, I get to delay the 1/1/1 for a long time (if he still decides to), or I get to play on safely knowing that a 1/1/1 isnt coming. 1-1-1 can definitely still come despite a gas steal. | ||
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pezzaperry
142 Posts
I think it's the correct response when seeing a marauder to try to gain economy rather than army supply, so how do you deal with the lack of scouting in between your first ob and your probe? FYI: I use a 3gate expand, this could be a problem as my first observer comes significantly later (7-8minutes in). | ||
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juw
76 Posts
- 2 collosi with thermal lance. Zealots out of 3 gates - 4 gate blink: Harassment and kiting marines. May be weak against cloak though. My experience in mid masters is this: 2 base is only good if the push is delayed. Terran can get to your base as early as 8:45 and even earlier if he doesnt wait for siege. If the terran sees the expansion, he can just push out with unsieged tanks soon after the first banshee is done. Unsieged tanks still have good DPS and if protoss expanded or went pheonix, there wont be enough gateway units to deal with the marines and scvs. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1312 Posts
1) Scouting: Look, the most you need to determine is 2 things: a) Not an marine+scv all-in b) Not a 2rax marauder pressure Note: Sure gas timings and marine count is very important as the OP said, but in my books, the two things above I believe are ranked 1st to determine. 2) If it is not either a) or b), then go for a Gate-Core-Stalker-Nexus. From here on, it's a Robo, bring gate count to 4 , 2 obs, and you will be set. 3) Determine expansion from Terran at 6:30-7:00. If there is no expansion, then you must cut probes and pump units out immediately because a huge push will come shortly. However, if you scout an expansion, then I tend to drop down my robo bay and start a 2 base timing push. | ||
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