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On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote:you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this.. why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up. I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time. the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also  ) 1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
What do you do if the Terran expands behind his 1-1-1 opener? Your 3 Gate-Robo scales poorly vs the 1-1-1 composition.
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On August 30 2011 04:17 Micket wrote:
Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker.
So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
It's also perfectly viable to do a 3 rax rush with 2/3rds of your SCVs pulled after bunkering the top of your ramp like this. Works great against Protoss on many closer spawns that went 1 rax FE after seeing it.
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I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well.
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clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1.
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On September 03 2011 08:16 Durantula wrote:
I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well.
stealing gas doesnt delay 1-1-1. ive been told personally by terrans that basically the exact time the gas steal is killed off is when they take their second gas anyway
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On September 03 2011 08:16 drybones wrote:
clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1.
Hiding marauders does not set his 2rax timing back at all. They sit by the command center ready to walk out whenever they feel the strongest moment for attacking a 1gate FE is, while the marines chill in their bunker.
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
1gate FE has been scouting like this for ages and we are precisely talking about how Terrans have been confusing our scouting information by hiding everything but rines. Please, drybones, inform yourself by reading the posts leading up to this one and don't throw out a little weasely theorycrafting.
gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands). Entirely insufficient for discussion.
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Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
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On September 03 2011 08:26 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:16 drybones wrote:
clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1. Hiding marauders does not set his 2rax timing back at all. They sit by the command center ready to walk out whenever they feel the strongest moment for attacking a 1gate FE is, while the marines chill in their bunker. Show nested quote +trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands. 1gate FE has been scouting like this for ages and we are precisely talking about how Terrans have been confusing our scouting information by hiding everything but rines. Please, drybones, inform yourself by reading the posts leading up to this one and don't throw out a little weasely theorycrafting. Show nested quote +gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands). Entirely insufficient for discussion.
yikes you seem angry. im aware my points arent new or groundbreaking but ppl keep asking scouting questions so i decided to answer. Sometimes reminding yourself of good fundamentals (like the 4.30 scout) can be extremely important, far from theory crafting since im aware others know to do this.
Hiding maruaders and bunkering will for sure delay a 2rax timing. 1 gate FE is pretty weak until your WG finishes and the 2rax can hit at 5.30 with wg finishing at 6.30 with no chronos (to line up gateway timing). Even just 10-15s can be huge since you will be taking less fire on the nexus and have time to prepare which you wouldnt otherwise if terran decided to just not hide it.
i'd need to see a replay of someone hiding a 2rax using a bunker and still hitting at 5.30 with 5 rines and 1 marauder to believe it but until then i am going to assume bunkering for deception delays it slightly.
i understand your point that it wouldnt delay a delayed 2/3 rax aggression but by then we can have warp gates chronod and scouts in place to see it so it should be possible to hold with a good unit composition and ff's. I feel like the most dangerous is the 5.30 attack with scvs to bunker with any delayed attack giving us more time to prepare.
i brought up "gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate" to build on the idea of when to scout. some people think rushing to obs is the best way and i just disagree since it will leave you too vulnerable to early 2 rax.
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On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote:
Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines.
again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units.
like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
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On September 03 2011 08:18 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:16 Durantula wrote:
I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well. stealing gas doesnt delay 1-1-1. ive been told personally by terrans that basically the exact time the gas steal is killed off is when they take their second gas anyway
though about the only thing ive found with stealing a gas from a terran is that, the toss can pressure the front door with a 2 or 3 gate pressure and be more effective. or the gas doesnt get killed in time.
ive been experimenting and theory crafting with that idea, though i cant quite determine how effective it is =/ as ive won some games at high masters where they pulled nearly everything to kill that gas, and i just walk in the front door. though if they split properly thats the part where im debating whether its worth it.
though i agree if all you do is gas steal, its not worth it. needs to have a follow up.
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Been playing alot verse my friend and was trying a 2 gate robo exp but with a warp prism with stalkers in it for scouting. My objective was to take out there gas AND scout. You can almost tell instantly what they got by how they react to your drop (warped in zealots for support) If I noticed a ton of units I would pick up stalkers and as many zealots as I can high tail it back to base cuz I scouted a 2 rax pressure (cancel Nexus) and proceed to 1 base colossi. Im no expert but I thought that since a patch for prism is going to hit us soon we should try and consider its use
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On September 03 2011 07:08 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote:you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this.. why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up. I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time. the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also ) 1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out What do you do if the Terran expands behind his 1-1-1 opener? Your 3 Gate-Robo scales poorly vs the 1-1-1 composition.
it then becomes a long game, and i dont loose to a 1-1-1 all in..
if you get the robo + obs quick enough you can see what "build" he is going for,
generally i throw down the exp once i feel safe i can hold any 1-1-1 all in as seen in my replays
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2011 10:08 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote:
Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines. again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units. like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
I've been doing gate/gas/cyber/gas/robo/stalker/sentry/immortal/nexus at 38/42 supply for a while on ladder now. Three chronos on probes, two-three on gateway depending on scouting and one-two on immortal. I'm completely skipping the first two gateway units in exchange for a faster immortal. Scouting with your first probe must be very strong.
Nexus goes down around 5:50. Two more gates and an obs as warp gate finishes. If you scout bio/marauder aggression you can get another immortal instead.
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1 gate expo into starport 3 gate. has been the only thing that wins me games against the 1 1 1, when a banshee scouts me i put down a robo. only tend to get 1 immortal out before the 1 1 1 push, i try to put down an extra gate if i can once the 2 bases are going. if they are doing a regular build i poke their wall off with stalkers + vision. works well against platinum terran
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Stargate openings beat the 8-minute version of the rush but if he just sits and masses marines until 10 minutes your starport opening looks stupid. And it's an easy decision for him to make since if you open with stargate and not robo you have to use the phoenixes to scout, so he knows you have phoenix. By opening stargate you're relying on him not knowing how to respond, which is stupid.
There are plenty of builds that beat the 1/1/1. The key to beating 1/1/1 is to have both an expansion, as well as three or more Immortals ready when he arrives at your base. If you have this you will crush them. If you don't have it, you can't win without outplaying the Terran significantly. The problem is any build that can achieve this outright loses to other common Terran openers. So the way things are currently balanced you have to decide what you're going to lose to. Either the 1/1/1, or something else.
15 Nexus craps all over the 1/1/1, as it gives you more than enough time and econ to scout them with an obs, and make sufficient immortals before they arrive. Of course, 15 Nexus dies to any kind of early aggression.
Any robo before expo build also beats it, for basically the same reason - you have the robo finished much earlier which lets you get out immortals faster. Unfortunately, 1 gate robo expo dies badly to 3 rax, 2 rax with pulled SCVs, or any form of marine/scv allin. 2 gate or 3 gate robo expo die to any fast expansion opening, as you'll be too far behind.
1 gate FE builds just can't beat the 1/1/1 because placing the robo after your nexus doesn't let you get an obs out plus sufficient immortals by the time they reach you.
Personally, I think the Immortal change is going to fix this. The Immortal change will let Protoss do 1 gate robo expo and still survive something like 2 rax aggression, as 6 range immortals can't be blocked from shooting at marauders by a wall of SCVs. Once the marauders are gone you can just retreat up the ramp and recharge your shields as well as get more units, their marines aren't going to tear your nexus down by themselves. 1 gate robo expo also isn't behind against something like 1 rax FE, as it will force the Terran to make marauders and many bunkers.
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On September 03 2011 10:08 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote:
Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines. again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units. like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
I have been experimenting with fast immortal against 2 rax (R/TL) a lot lately and so far it does not look very promising. By getting an Immortal in time (~5:40-5:50 on XNC) a combination (depending on BO) of the following issues arises:
a) 2 Gas
- cuting probes temporary below optimal saturation
- even cuting units out of only gate
- Nexus gets delayed up to the point you would plant it right as the attack hits
b) 1 Gas
- no 2nd Gas and therefore mostly Zealots
- delayed additional gates, therefore relying on slow immortal-production for a long time
The Immortal's opportunity costs are simply to high for that early stage of the game.
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i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
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On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote:
i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
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Right so if you can snipe the raven (if it's even a raven build) they have to burn scans which makes the following pushes much weaker.
In the actual engagement, the raven is usually kept towards the back, so if you lead with the hallu immo's they are going to take a bunch of tank and marine fire before they enter into the raven's detection range.
Here's a replay; engagement is at about 12:00 (this isn't a good build, but shows the usefulness of hallu in the engagement vs raven): http://www.mediafire.com/?schgd45joa9ubuj
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EPT
