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Hello TL world,
I'm currently a high gold/low plat protoss player and I find it extremely difficult to counter a mass-marine terran.
Let's go through some marine counters as protoss shall we? Let's go.
1) Collosus - Their high splash damage tears those light armored marines apart.
2) High Templars - Storm literally consumes the clumped up marine ball.
3) Dark Templars? - Well they're a counter to every ground unit if they don't have detection. LOL
Alright now that I have talked about which protoss units counter that very intimidating marine ball, I would like to point out 1 thing. All of those units are so high in the tech tree! Right at the top as a matter of fact. To set the record straight, this isn't a marine cry-OP thread, it's just something that I am genuinely worried about.
I do realise that zealot/sentry with perfect forcefields can counter that marine ball. But if the terran does a 2 rax (w/ proxy) or 6 rax all-in (unlikely but still scary) I doubt I can get enough zealots and sentries out by the time the rush arrives at my front door.
So I guess my question is, being a lowly gold player, what would you people in the high leagues do vs a HUGE MARINE BALL WITH STIM AND SHIELDS?
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collosus, storm, archons or just well placed forcefields with a guardian shield
i think at gold league level it's far more productive to focus on macro/micro and build orders than devising specific unit counters
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Early stim timings are hard to hold as protoss, your best chance is to try delaying it as much as possible while teching to colossus.
Use FF on your ramp, kiting with stalkers and buy as much time as you can.
You also need to scout it as soon as possible and if it's not hidden proxy rax you should hold it.
Use your probe to scout his base and get out before he finishes the wall. Hide your probe and poke around 4:00, 4:30 to check is you can see anything. Chronoboost stalker early to poke his ramp and check what he's doing. Then you should scout with obeserver or hallucinated phenix, you need either one asap. If you don't get early robo, use chrono on WG research and hallucination.
Remember to add more gates if you see him massing alot of units.
i think at gold league level it's far more productive to focus on macro/micro and build orders than devising specific unit counters
Not in PvT, it's big deal in this matchup, especialy in early game.
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On July 14 2011 22:15 Dialogue wrote:
Hello TL world,
I'm currently a high gold/low plat protoss player and I find it extremely difficult to counter a mass-marine terran.
Let's go through some marine counters as protoss shall we? Let's go.
1) Collosus - Their high splash damage tears those light armored marines apart.
2) High Templars - Storm literally consumes the clumped up marine ball.
3) Dark Templars? - Well they're a counter to every ground unit if they don't have detection. LOL
Alright now that I have talked about which protoss units counter that very intimidating marine ball, I would like to point out 1 thing. All of those units are so high in the tech tree! Right at the top as a matter of fact. To set the record straight, this isn't a marine cry-OP thread, it's just something that I am genuinely worried about.
I do realise that zealot/sentry with perfect forcefields can counter that marine ball. But if the terran does a 2 rax (w/ proxy) or 6 rax all-in (unlikely but still scary) I doubt I can get enough zealots and sentries out by the time the rush arrives at my front door.
So I guess my question is, being a lowly gold player, what would you people in the high leagues do vs a HUGE MARINE BALL WITH STIM AND SHIELDS?
if you are being all in'd you can just hold your ramp with FF and tech out to colo , or just push him.
MAKE SURE YOUR USING GUARDIAN SHIELD
Cuts marine damage down to 3 early game. that's 50 shots per zealot, even with stim thats a lot of shots. You don't need perfect FF to stop this, so dont pretend you do  .
You just need very basic 1 ff on a ramp.
If it's a stim timing, guardian shield + zealots + a few (3-4 stalkers) should be fine. You only have to engage a tiny portion of his army at a time, and he's against the clock once he hits stim. a set of FF will outlast the stim duration.
If you spent an hour practising your FF in unit test you could probably solve every problem your having.
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Marines are not that effective vs protoss without good micro (which I doubt gold players have to be honest) basically sentries are the key to hold off marines with their forcefield and guardian shield upgrade. They can buy you so much time and kill and army with some decent forcefields, which is how you get to the HTs and colossus.
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Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro.
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put a probe on petrol on the path he will push, focus on sentry to get perfect FF on your ramp. the best build to deal will be 3 gate robo on 1 base. If your opponent going all in with marine, you should be able to crush them with your first colossus. If they are just doing a timing push (highly unlikely from my past experience in gold), you should push them back to their base and expand behind.
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On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro.
You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk.
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Counters to marines differ by what stage of the game you're in.
If it's mid-lategame, colossus or HTs are your primary answer (though a Terran going primarily marine in mid-lategame is unusual unless you did something to provoke it like opening mass air).
If it's prior to that time, i.e. an early timing, or if you're going Hwangsin/MC style with 6 gateways on 2 base, then FF their marines in half, throw up a guardian shield, and send Zealots at them while pelting the marines with stalkers behind the zealots.
There's a popular statistic that a +1 armor Zealot with Guardian shield takes ~50 shots to kill from a marine.
Also, Archons turn marines into tomato sauce.
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Canada13389 Posts
EDIT: while typing much better advice has been given, I rescind my comment about bad advice
Here's the thing OP you need to give us replays. Show us what you are losing to.
If you are having problems with marines stim and shield, then they aren't doing a 6 rax timing off one base. If they were with a solid and crisp Build order you should be able to have a sentry out in time.
If they do a 2 rax aggression (one tech lab, one reactor) into expand then similarly a good build order will hold that. Something as simple as a 3 gate expo or a 2 gate robo is fine.
Proxy 2 rax, pure marine or just a 2 rax in general, I still have issues with when it hits so I don't feel comfortable discussing how to stop it though you will need to use probes to help out.
With small numbers of marines (into the early mid game as you secure an expansion) Zealot sentry is perfect. If its a super early attack, then just having 3 gateways with zealots a sentry or two to FF half the army off the ramp, and a couple stalkers is fine.
You don't need to get up the tech tree to collossus if they have pure marine without medivacs. Generally in PvT the consensus is that extra tech levels and splash units are only necessary once medivacs are out as up until then your gateway units can kill the Terran bio units assuming your army sizes are similar and you are engaging in good positions.
If you are fighting at your ramp you need less zealots and more stalkers, if you are fighting down the ramp you need more zealots and fewer stalkers (3 or 4 max!)
Post some replays and we can be a bit more specific, but as of now I would say get a crisp opening BO down and you should be safe against most if not all stim timings from Terran at your level, assuming you are making probes constantly when on one base.
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1) If he 2rax or 6rax or some other crazy marine-play early game, just FF your ramp if he tries to move up and kill his isolated units while you tech to collosus.
2) Get chargelots and armor upgrades; they are very cost-efficient PvT. Together with guardian shield, your chargelots will not die.
3) A gateway mix with good forcefields matches a bio mix early/mid pretty well.
And as others mention at your level just work on micro/macro. You might aswell always open some Robo build and if you scout marine-heavy just go straight collossus on one base and then expand. Its solid at lower levels.
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On July 14 2011 22:54 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro. You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk.
Chargelots with armor upgrades, forcefields and guardian shield. They will tear marauders to death cost-efficiently.
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I just started playing a bit with toss, only getting silver gold opponents for now except one or two plats (im a low diamond terran).
If he goes mass bio, unless it gets my completely by surprise, I go straight for zealot legspeed and dump all my gas on sentrys plus a few stalkers if high on money, I usually own mass bio quite easily.
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On July 14 2011 23:40 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:54 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro. You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk. Chargelots with armor upgrades, forcefields and guardian shield. They will tear marauders to death cost-efficiently.
We are talking about early game, you don't have charge and armor upgrades for stim timing.
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On July 15 2011 00:46 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 23:40 KaiserJohan wrote:On July 14 2011 22:54 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro. You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk. Chargelots with armor upgrades, forcefields and guardian shield. They will tear marauders to death cost-efficiently. We are talking about early game, you don't have charge and armor upgrades for stim timing.
If he is going marauder/marine stim push timing he won't have medivacs. If he does, you should have collosi or charge. Just FF your ramp.
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On July 15 2011 00:49 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:46 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 23:40 KaiserJohan wrote:On July 14 2011 22:54 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro. You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk. Chargelots with armor upgrades, forcefields and guardian shield. They will tear marauders to death cost-efficiently. We are talking about early game, you don't have charge and armor upgrades for stim timing. If he is going marauder/marine stim push timing he won't have medivacs. If he does, you should have collosi or charge. Just FF your ramp.
The problem with stim timing w/o medivacs, before you can get any AOE is that he can stim few times and not care about having all units in red when you have no units left to finish him and loose shit ton of probes.
And not every map has a ramp, also you can pick some sentries with scan on high ground.
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United States954 Posts
im sure this has already been mentioned, but am going to repeat for truth:
zealots with a guardian shield and charge are amazing against marines (and decent against marauders too)
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Colossi, HT, or just gateway army with double forge upgrades going (zealot sentry heavy)
About the marine all-in/rush like 2 rax and 6 rax, you just get stalkers, and kite kite kite. It's a micro battle, but slightly in your favor.
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On July 15 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:49 KaiserJohan wrote:On July 15 2011 00:46 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 23:40 KaiserJohan wrote:On July 14 2011 22:54 Dariusz wrote:On July 14 2011 22:44 TheTurk wrote:
Guardian shield and stalkers.
If he isn't making marauders, then your gateway units win.
If he IS making marauders, then there aren't enough marines to be a problem.
If he is both making marauders AND he has enough marines to trouble you, then you need to work on macro. You think stimmed marauders are not a problem for gateway army? How about you play few Pvt's first and then talk. Chargelots with armor upgrades, forcefields and guardian shield. They will tear marauders to death cost-efficiently. We are talking about early game, you don't have charge and armor upgrades for stim timing. If he is going marauder/marine stim push timing he won't have medivacs. If he does, you should have collosi or charge. Just FF your ramp. The problem with stim timing w/o medivacs, before you can get any AOE is that he can stim few times and not care about having all units in red when you have no units left to finish him and loose shit ton of probes. And not every map has a ramp, also you can pick some sentries with scan on high ground.
No I don't buy this at all. If you split his army with FF you will clean it up easily, there is no question about it whatsoever.
You make a good point on the maps with ramps though, specifically tal'darim. On that I can just see a big gateway army holding it of. But it clearly is not a problem, because otherwise all pro games would look alike.
A gateway mix with good forcefields will crush a bio army.
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On July 14 2011 22:57 Snaphoo wrote:
Counters to marines differ by what stage of the game you're in.
qft.
Early game, you can kite marines with stalkers very effectively. Somewhat later, zealot/sentry is extremely effective. In the midgame, armor chargelots are very good against bio in general. Then in tier 3, colossus and templar both basically own marines.
Any early game bio play you should be able to counter with only gates if you scout it effectively. Straight gateways tech only becomes problematic once he gets medivacs.
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Camp your army in your base while teching to Collosus (for your level, I think they are the best to use). Make sure your early army is composed of primarily Zealots and Sentries.D on't leave your army outside of your base, as it can easily be destroyed. Instead, force him to engage your choke. If he does, FF the ramp to delay his assault or split his army in half and go for the kill. If the Terran expands, you can't stay too long in your base and must push out. Two to three Colossus are enough to deal with the Marines. FFs are important to capture the Marines and make them burn.
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On July 15 2011 04:58 edc wrote:
Camp your army in your base while teching to Collosus (for your level, I think they are the best to use). Make sure your early army is composed of primarily Zealots and Sentries.D on't leave your army outside of your base, as it can easily be destroyed. Instead, force him to engage your choke. If he does, FF the ramp to delay his assault or split his army in half and go for the kill. If the Terran expands, you can't stay too long in your base and must push out. Two to three Colossus are enough to deal with the Marines. FFs are important to capture the Marines and make them burn.
I agree, single base colossus with mostly zeal/sentry should solve your problem OP
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Another way to deal with marines that I've found is to get really fast armor upgrades. +2 armor zealots live FOREVER against 0/0 bio. Get a few sentries to use guardian shield and those marines are doing 1 damage per hit. Although that won't last forever as the terran gets upgrades, it should buy you enough time to get a solid amount of colossus/HT out and then marines are no longer a problem.
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Use Guardian Shield and watch the marines barely tickle your army.
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There are a few large variables to keep in mind for the PvMarine matchup:
-the number of marines
-their upgrades
-your tech
-your upgrades
The more marines there are and the more upgraded they are, the more you're going to need templar or colo. For both P and Marine, I consider upgrades to be a "soft" bonus that give either side an edge if they're on even tech. For example, marines without stim or shields aren't that amazing versus regular gateway tech units. Stim/Shields/Attack ups give them the edge needed to roll basic gateway units. However, twilight-upgraded gateway units make the fight even or favorable for the Protoss and sort of nullify the Marine player's advantage.
The biggest problem is once the Marine player has accumulated enough marines with decent upgrades that they reach critical mass and all the upgraded zealots in the world won't make a difference. That's the point where you need Colossi or Templar.
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You can hold off marine marauder with pure gateway army just fine until they get medivaks, at which point u should have ur tech starting to come into effect. until medivaks you can do just fine by trapping terran with ff and having ur zealots eat him. also gaurdian shield vs mass marines is essential. it basicly makes half as good. and by the time terran has stim you should be able to have charge i believe, which will make it very difficult for a gold league player to kite you.
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Make 2 sentrys, ez mode. expand late, tech to ez win
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EPT
