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On June 18 2011 03:38 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 03:26 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote:
Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings + Show Spoiler +I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p.
TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals).
Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player. Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate.
Interesting, there was a lot of discussion about this back in the early days of the beta and the conclusions were that 10pylon 10gate were better and so I've just stuck to it as gospel truth since then but it seems pretty incorrect for pylon near your nexus.
Came up with pretty much the exact same results as you when i tested it myself.
9 pylon 10 gate
0:46 pylon
10th probe cut from 0:51 to 0:55 (1:12 finish)
1:18 gateway
1:25 start 11th probe
10 pylon 10 gate
0:55 pylon
10th 1:08 finish
1:20 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
5 seconds of mining time for 2 seconds on a gateway seems like a reasonable trade given that you aren't going for an economy advantage with a 10gate.
I am converted.
I think 11gate might but slightly different but that's for a different topic.
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On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game.
Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent.
Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though.
Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player.
Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming.
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On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming.
Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack.
Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp.
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On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp.
I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution.
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On June 21 2011 04:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp. I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution.
Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with you either :p I just wanted to emphasize a weakness of this build. I still use this build all the time. And you can always play mind games with your opponent and do a defensive 3 gate against your opponent if you think they will 4 gate you.
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On June 21 2011 04:44 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 04:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp. I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution. Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with you either :p I just wanted to emphasize a weakness of this build. I still use this build all the time. And you can always play mind games with your opponent and do a defensive 3 gate against your opponent if you think they will 4 gate you.
Or better yet in a bo-series, use this build one game. Then in another game you can early gate and bait an offensive 4 gate from the opponent. A lot can go on if you show the opponent you can do this opening 
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bookmarked this, sounds great
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I want to try this v a FE zerg... My main downfall...
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On June 22 2011 01:20 Strykerz wrote:
I want to try this v a FE zerg... My main downfall...
Hey I really want to see the replay of you trying!
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To confirm. This build is more of a very aggressive opening that is used to punish fast tech builds / force a defensive 4 gate but should not be able to outright kill an opponent - correct?
In other words, if I get in the base, snipe a few probes and "throw an opponent off their game" it's fulfilled its purpose?
Thanks Cecil
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On June 22 2011 01:50 QTIP. wrote:
To confirm. This build is more of a very aggressive opening that is used to punish fast tech builds / force a defensive 4 gate but should not be able to outright kill an opponent - correct?
In other words, if I get in the base, snipe a few probes and "throw an opponent off their game" it's fulfilled its purpose?
Thanks Cecil
If the opponent is reacting poorly you can at times just kill them. I do this all the time. But if they are a decent player and react more along the appropriate lines you shouldn't be able to just kill them.
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Perhaps I'm making some mistake I'm not seeing here, but I believe I'm following your BO exactly, and everytime I send my zealot over, it get picked off by a stalker even if I scout a 13 gate. Are there only a small number of maps that you can actually get aggressive with the zealot?
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On June 22 2011 02:08 giuocob wrote:
Perhaps I'm making some mistake I'm not seeing here, but I believe I'm following your BO exactly, and everytime I send my zealot over, it get picked off by a stalker even if I scout a 13 gate. Are there only a small number of maps that you can actually get aggressive with the zealot?
Shouldn't you be able to tell when the enemy core finishes with a scout probe? If your Zealot is going to get there when a Stalker could be finished, then don't passed the Xel'Naga Towers. You should be able to run a Zealot from the Tower back to your base in the event you see a Stalker coming.
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Okay i've been using this build, and as you did say it gets semi countered by 3 stalker opening, basically u have to have better micro and outplay your opponent when u have two stalkers and a zealot. Is there a transition where if i see them putting down that second gateway?
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On June 22 2011 02:22 jcroisdale wrote:
Okay i've been using this build, and as you did say it gets semi countered by 3 stalker opening, basically u have to have better micro and outplay your opponent when u have two stalkers and a zealot. Is there a transition where if i see them putting down that second gateway?
Add a 3rd/4th gateway after your 3rd pylon, put your 3rd pylon on your half of the map so it doesn't get shut down, use your 1z/4s to push to his side of the map and add proxy pylons and 4 gate.
Or add a 2nd gas after you start your 2nd stalker and tech whatever you want while using your 1z/4s to have map control and potentially hunt down his 3 stalkers (if you're lucky).
As for how to counter the build - I'd think a gate robo gate build might do the trick. Zealot - stalker - sentry, use the sentry to force field for 15 seconds while chronoing out an immortal, warp in more sentries once warpgate is done. Sadly I can't quite comment on the timing. I know a 10gate robo gate stops it but im not sure if a 12 gate would.
I'd probably just go for the triple stalker build in to a 3gate robo. It should delay his proxy pylon from being close to you - add a 3rd gate and a sentry after the 3 stalkers. You can add a robo as soon as you know you aren't getting 4 gated, otherwise you should be able to defend with your 3 gates if he 4 gates.
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I have tried it out on ladder (@3750 master). It can work but it is a little cheesy.
Against four gate, it doesn't work from my experience, because you can't stop the counter. I also defeated someone going this build by going 4 gate myself.
It might be a good build in a boX tough.
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I have been using this build ever since I saw the match, I couldn't believe no thread was posted about this build as it is not only deadly, but has fun early micro aspect to it once you get the your first warp in. I have gotten a lot of ladder opponents ask me about the build after games. I am actually glad to see a thread about it now because I think it can evolve into other new PvP builds, and to have someone like Cecil create the thread is a blessing in its own right. Thanks Cecil and keep up the amazing work :D
Edit: Also just one tweak I do on Xel'naga(should work with any other 2 player map as well) that I have found very helpful is to not scout with probe but instead scout with zealot since you know where your opponent is. Leaving the probe at home mining has allowed me to put my robo down after my first stalker warp in and get my ob/first immortal out quicker. This could also be from not-perfect macro since I am only a mid-diamond, but something I think that should be noted and tried. You must put your building placement like Tails does to spot cannon rushes since you are later scouting. If anyone tries it please let me know your thoughts, thank you
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On a map like Xel Naga where proxy gates and cannon rushes etc. are popular/viable (2 player map..) it's a bit silly to just not scout.. plus you may be in danger of losing your zealot if he went an early gate and no early zealot (quick stalker hunts it down)
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EPT
