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Overview
This build was designed for PvP, though I imagine can be used against other races as well as a type of fake 4 gate. The idea behind this build is to get two extremely fast warpgates in order to gain an army value advantage before your opponent gets warpgate finished. I tried for a long time to come up with a 2 gate build that accomplishes this in the new patch, but defender's advantage would always thwart my builds I created. Then I tune into GSTL one day and some MVP member created a much more clever build than the ones I constructed! If executed properly you should be able to get 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot to the enemy ramp @ 5:25.
I was a bit weary of posting this build, since I'm the only one I know of that knows about it. However I decided to share it since I've had my fun being the only one knowing about it on ladder, and haven't posted any builds up recently. I hope you enjoy it as well!
The Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- Chronoboost Probes
- 12 Assimilator --> Scout Probe
- 15 Cybernetics Core
- 16 Zealot*
- 18 Pylon
- @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate Research (Chrono'd); Stalker**
- @22 Supply or 1/3 WG Research: 2nd Gateway
- @100% Stalker: 2nd Stalker
- 26 Proxy Pylon
- @100% WG Tech: Warpin 2 rounds of Stalkers from WarpGates. Chrono Probes or Gates***
- After second warpin round of Stalkers: Add tech of choice; recommend Robotics
- * MVP_Tails attacked across the map with this Zealot, which was actually rather intelligent. Since Tails got a 10 Gate and scouted how much later Hongun's Gate was, there is no way Tails can actually lose his Zealot. There is also the offchance that the Zealot can get into the base uncontested or make your enemy's macro flounder. I recommend doing this as well.
- ** You must have constant chrono on this WG research until it finishes!
- *** Depending on how you want to play the build you will chrono your gates for more aggression, or probes in order to get ahead in economy.
You need to use your first Zealot and Stalker to prevent your proxy pylon from dieing! Study how Tails keeps his Proxy Pylon alive, and starts being really aggressive once his second stalker from his gateway arrives.
Followup
There are a few ways to transition from this build. You can try to kill your opponent and actually follow up with a 4 gate, you can use your army advantage from your 2 gate to pick off some probes, thus putting you in a lead to do whatever you want, or you can fake a 4 gate by pretending to contain at the bottom of the ramp, while actually laying down a tech building of your choice. I have even been able to fake a 4 gate and expand, following up with a huge mass of gateway units and warp prisms.
I recommend laying down a Robotics facility after trying to kill some enemy probes, like Tails did vs Hongun. I've found that going straight to Colossus against a bad player is actually a bad thing to do. A smart player will be extremely wary of attacking you after that fiasco, and be afraid of venturing up your ramp. However I've had players that don't understand the game just attack me with blink and allin in desparity, and kill me because I went for super fast Colossus. As Tails did I recommend going for immortals if you open robo, as they seem much more robust and less vulnerable at that stage of the game.
Probe Desparity
You will have slightly less probes with this build than with a standard opening. This is because you are trading those two probes or so in order to gain a large army advantage, to which you can use to get yourself ahead in both probe count and tech. Be warned that if you have poor execution you will not win any games with this build -it's rather technical and relies pretty heavily on a decent level of competence from the user.
Building Placement (in base)
Take note of how Tails sets up his initial buildings. He places them at the side of his ramp, most likely to help against a counter 4 Gate in the event that the enemy does decide to be counter aggressive. This is probably something you should try to copy, and Tails must have done it out of necessity or for some good reason (probably just so they are in the way or warpins).
Your proxy pylon needs to be in a location near the ramp, but also accessible to you by your initial Stalkers/Zealot. You need to be able to harass the opponent's units in the event they find your pylon to prevent it from being taken down!
Key Notes
- You want to have a Proxy Pylon up, 2 Gateways, 2 Stalkers and a Zealot complete right when WarpGate Research finishes!
- If you encounter the triple stalker opening, then you have to be very careful with laying down the proxy pylons, and might want to actually just get 2 proxy pylons laid down! It is still possible to thwart the triple stalker opening, as you'll have 4 Stalkers and a Zealot to their 3 Stalkers, however if they get a Sentry out before you can get up the ramp, you're best off just faking a 4 Gate and returning to your base.
- Remember, you are trading a little economy for an army value advantage in this build. You must use this army advantage to get ahead of your opponent!
+ Show Spoiler [Screen Shots] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1IH76.png) Tails sniping off 3 probes just as Hongun is finishing WarpGate tech.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AxkqL.png) Tails Warping in 2 Stalkers from his 2 Gates outside of Hongun's Base.
Replays and VODs
- X - Set 1: MVP_Tails for Hongun.Prime
- More replays will be added -it's really hard to get a good PvP lately due to work/personal matters and NO TOSS ON LADDER. PM me if you want me to own you with this build so we can get a replay
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sounds very interesting when i read the whole post, starting sc now to try the build  ill edit and report afterwards
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An interesting build, I will have to show my brother, as he has been looking for something other then 4gating in PvP. Nicely written.
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Very interesting build, as now when you scout a 10-gate and stockpiled chronoboost you have to consider if he is going a true 4-gate or a 2-gate fake.
However, it seems like you can definitely tell what this build is once the battle starts, because you can see him warping in 2-stalkers instead of the usual 4 with the 4-gate.
Is it possible for your opponent to have a sentry in time to stop the zeal/4 stalkers from walking up your ramp?
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Wowwwww I hate you so much. This will make scouting hard 4 gates so much more annoying T_T
But also the build seems really fun, going to try it when I get home.
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I just gave it a try on the ladder, here is the replay
http://www.2shared.com/file/WeaaHJm4/2gate_collosus.html
Dont look for mistakes or anything i might did wrong. Tho i was able to fake the 4gate but got abit greedy so los tsome stuff unnessary  tho i forced him to make alot of sentrys cuz he was teching hard apperently (as i saw later) so by seeing 4-5 sentrys i knew i could rush collosus since his own tech was heavily delayed by the sentries. at the moment i warped in my first 2 stlalkers i got my 2nd gass and instand threw down my robo when i saw i couldnt be able to break his ramp. i felt safe to get my expo aswell after competely dieing his DT tech.
I guess im going with this build for the comming week and try to get good with it
1100~master EU
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Nice guide as always Cecil. I think I've got a post in all of them saying that. ^^
Now I've got to be that guy: what beats this, besides the same build? Because if you just invented a new 4 gate I swear I will kill you.
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On June 17 2011 05:45 Indrium wrote:Nice guide as always Cecil. I think I've got a post in all of them saying that. ^^ Now I've got to be that guy: what beats this, besides the same build? Because if you just invented a new 4 gate I swear I will kill you.
The three Stalker opening is a good contender and forces the 2 Gater to be pretty skilled to pull it off. Other than that, idk because I've never faced it. Though I would try to produce units out of 3 Gateways while chronoing warpgate tech, following up with Blink (which is what Hongun was probably going to try, but he had pretty bad micro that was most likely due to the shock value of the 2 Gate build).
Edit: And thanks, I appreciate you saying that in my threads <3
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I would guess that an actual hard 4gate starting with a 10 gate would be a pretty good counter to this, as his warpgates will finish up no more than 10 seconds after yours and you will be quickly swamped by units.
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On June 17 2011 05:54 giuocob wrote:
I would guess that an actual hard 4gate starting with a 10 gate would be a pretty good counter to this, as his warpgates will finish up no more than 10 seconds after yours and you will be quickly swamped by units.
If you don't die, then sure. 4 Stalkers and a Zealot beats 2 Stalkers and a Zealot any day. Edit: Actually you can get 6-8 Stalkers out before WG finishes depending on Chrono usage.
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I've been doing an extremely similar build, where I go 11 gate into 3 gates. The end result is that I also end up with 4 stalker 1 zeal (I don't make 2nd stalker out of initial gateway), but at 5:30 instead of 5:25 and with a slightly better economy. The way I play it I actually get a 2nd gas right after my 3rd gateway and continue making probes, so what usually ends up happening is that I come out ahead in econ even though I'm behind by a probe or 2 at the beginning (I don't even need to do any damage with my 4 stalker 1 zeal, it's just there to put on pressure and make the opponent cut probes).
The problem with this build is that you literally have only a few seconds to do damage with your slightly bigger army before his warpgates come online. Oftentimes this is really difficult, especially on maps where it's hard to put a proxy pylon near his ramp, and also on maps where the distance between the ramp and his mineral line is far (then it takes a few extra seconds to get into his mineral line to kill a probe or 2 before you have to run away).
You really absolutely have to have perfect execution in order to for this build to be effective (don't miss chronos on warpgate, have good control of your initial zealot + stalker + probe, must get proxy pylon up, etc.). Every second you lose is huge. I know that that usually goes without saying, but honestly I've never used any other build that relies on being perfect as much as this one. Void ray rush in PvT and your void gets supply blocked by 10 seconds? Meh doesn't matter. DT rush in PvZ and your proxy pylon gets killed so you lose 20 seconds walking across the map? Not the end of the world. Your chrono is off by 2 seconds in this build? You're fucked. Might as well pull an IdrA and leave the game right there.
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On June 17 2011 06:12 Anihc wrote:
You really absolutely have to have perfect execution in order to for this build to be effective (don't miss chronos on warpgate, have good control of your initial zealot + stalker + probe, must get proxy pylon up, etc.). Every second you lose is huge. I know that that usually goes without saying, but honestly I've never used any other build that relies on being perfect as much as this one. Void ray rush in PvT and your void gets supply blocked by 10 seconds? Meh doesn't matter. DT rush in PvZ and your proxy pylon gets killed so you lose 20 seconds walking across the map? Not the end of the world. Your chrono is off by 2 seconds in this build? You're fucked. Might as well pull an IdrA and leave the game right there.
Yeah that is really true. I noted in the OP that you have to have a certain level of competence to pull it off. I lost a good number of games because of subtle mistakes that slowed me down by 20 or so seconds. 20 seconds late on this build and you lose. That means a slight supply block at the wrong time and a late chrono. Hell that could even mean one large late chrono.
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Just a nit, 9 pylon 10 gate is strictly worse than 10 pylon 10 gate.
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What if you attack the pylons powering his gateways instead of his probes?
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On June 17 2011 06:40 galivet wrote:
What if you attack the pylons powering his gateways instead of his probes?
Imagine you have time to kill a pylon. That costs the Protoss 100 minerals for a replacement, probable supply block, and might unpower something.
Imagine you have the same amount of time to kill probes. That will be what, 4-8 probes? 200-400 minerals and lost mining potential? Most of the time probes will be better killed.
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On June 17 2011 06:44 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 06:40 galivet wrote:
What if you attack the pylons powering his gateways instead of his probes? Imagine you have time to kill a pylon. That costs the Protoss 100 minerals for a replacement, and might unpower something. Imagine you have the same amount of time to kill probes. That will be what, 4-8 probes? 200-400 minerals and lost mining potential? Most of the time probes will be better killed.
Pylon is actually a great target because usually that will supply block them, giving you more time to kill stuff as well as warping in additional units. The problem is that it takes awhile to kill that pylon and you don't always have time to do that especially when he still has at least 2 stalker 1 zealot sitting around.
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On June 17 2011 06:50 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 06:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 17 2011 06:40 galivet wrote:
What if you attack the pylons powering his gateways instead of his probes? Imagine you have time to kill a pylon. That costs the Protoss 100 minerals for a replacement, and might unpower something. Imagine you have the same amount of time to kill probes. That will be what, 4-8 probes? 200-400 minerals and lost mining potential? Most of the time probes will be better killed. Pylon is actually a great target because usually that will supply block them, giving you more time to kill stuff as well as warping in additional units. The problem is that it takes awhile to kill that pylon and you don't always have time to do that especially when he still has at least 2 stalker 1 zealot sitting around.
Yeah if the importunity arises, kill it. Most of the time probes are better targets though.
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nice build, its the same concept to one i made a month or so before wg nerf that i still use. Im stealing it if u dont mind.
The thing is that mine relies on cronoing the 4 stalkers outa 2 gates while researching wg without any crono. So this is def better on bigger maps while mine gets the 4 stalkers to his ramp faster if its closer spawns - smaller maps. a big difference though is that this one fakes a 4 gate while mine getting 12 gas 13 gate doesnt, but it does force the same defensive reaction coz their scout is seeing how ur cronoing the units outa ur 2 gates for some inminent pressure.
If u guys are interested ill post the bo for some discussion.
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what do you think about 10 pylon 10 gateway instead of 9 pylon. You can get your 10th probe slightly faster this way and you should have about 150 minerals when pylon finishes
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Correct, if you're getting a 10 gate there's no reason at all to get a 9 pylon.
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Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish.
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I think this build would be better off using 10 Pylon.
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On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote:
Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish.
Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well.
Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo.
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On June 18 2011 03:26 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote:
Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings+ Show Spoiler +I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p.
TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals).
Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player.
Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate.
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On June 18 2011 03:38 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 03:26 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote:
Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings + Show Spoiler +I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p.
TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals).
Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player. Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate.
Thanks a lot. Sounds to me like a matter of personal preference. So, personally I prefer to just do what Tails did.
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Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo.
If you go 9 pylon you cant constantly build probes. With 10 pylon you get your 10th much faster and when the pylon is finished you have little bit over 150 minerals.
day9 also used this 10 pylon 10 gate in one of hes pvp builds that he made with liquid tyler. It was almost the as this but it was defensive build. 1gate robo where you get your immortal, sentry, stalker, zealot and 2 gateway out at 5 minute mark.
edit: i tested which one is better and it seems like 9 pylon allows you to make gateway about 2 seconds faster, but 10pylon is more economic. You can also chrono boost as soonest you hit 25 energy to get your probes faster when you go 10 pylon.
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Nice cecil, as always u give good builds.
I've played u in ladder
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On June 18 2011 04:01 Smoodish wrote:Nice cecil, as always u give good builds. I've played u in ladder
Thanks a ton!
Did I Immortal drop you? Please say yes..
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Just played some more practice games. It's quite hard to do any damage if the opponent makes 2 gates before units, starts pumping stalkers and chronoing warp gate.
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This is an interesting build. I'm not sure how different this is from the Adel Scott no gas opening which puts out 3 zealots and 2 stalkers in a similar time frame. With the Adel opening you don't have to sacrifice probes and can hit before a standard 4 gate.
Cecil, could you be so kind as to list the advantages of this compared to the Adel build?
Thank you
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On June 18 2011 06:31 daralharb wrote:
This is an interesting build. I'm not sure how different this is from the Adel Scott no gas opening which puts out 3 zealots and 2 stalkers in a similar time frame. With the Adel opening you don't have to sacrifice probes and can hit before a standard 4 gate.
Cecil, could you be so kind as to list the advantages of this compared to the Adel build?
Thank you
Adel:
-Delayed WG Tech
-Delayed Vespene
-Impossible to kill scout probe
-Higher probe count and economy than normal
-Little offensive ability vs certain openings
2 Gate Rush:
-Slight economy hit
-Faster WG tech
-Versatile transition paths, map control
-Generally gives army advantage
Edit: Basically, the 2 Gate lets you negate defender's advantage due to travel time, and lets you get more Stalkers, all for a cost in economy.
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Adel:
-Delayed WG Tech
-Delayed Vespene
-Impossible to kill scout probe
-Higher probe count and economy than normal
-Little offensive ability vs certain openings
2 Gate Rush:
-Slight economy hit
-Faster WG tech
-Versatile transition paths, map control
-Generally gives army advantage
Edit: Basically, the 2 Gate lets you negate defender's advantage due to travel time, and lets you get more Stalkers, all for a cost in economy.[/QUOTE]
Thanks much! Glad you could clarify that for me. I think I'll give it a try next game!
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On June 18 2011 03:57 Mairou wrote:Show nested quote +Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. If you go 9 pylon you cant constantly build probes. With 10 pylon you get your 10th much faster and when the pylon is finished you have little bit over 150 minerals. day9 also used this 10 pylon 10 gate in one of hes pvp builds that he made with liquid tyler. It was almost the as this but it was defensive build. 1gate robo where you get your immortal, sentry, stalker, zealot and 2 gateway out at 5 minute mark. edit: i tested which one is better and it seems like 9 pylon allows you to make gateway about 2 seconds faster, b ut 10pylon is more economic. You can also chrono boost as soonest you hit 25 energy to get your probes faster when you go 10 pylon. Emphasis mine.
I don't understand, for all intents and purposes 10pylon10gate has equal econ to 9pylon10gate. You have a delay of about 3-4 seconds for a single probe when you do 9pylon as opposed to 10 pylon. How you can argue that that's a difference economically is just ludicrous to me.
By the time you start your 11th probe, which you will start at the exact same time with both variations(within a few tenths of a second) you have the same food, the same amount of probes, the same energy on your nexus, the same everything. There is no trade-off economically because you will always have the same amount of probes at the same time with both builds(except for the 10th probe and only for a few seconds which makes no difference) since the pylon completes before you want to start building probes with both builds.
In a build where the timing of the gate didn't matter for some reason I can agree that having a miniscule amount of minerals more by going 10pylon would be beneficial. But why would you ever want to 10gate if not to place an early a gate as you possibly can? I just can't see a good reason.
(To clarify, I'm only arguing against your claim that 10pylon is more economical. I am not saying that 10pylon is better or worse than 9pylon, only pointing out that the differences are minimal.)
Edit: Sorry for derailing the thread, please resume discussing the strategy and don't mind my little rant, thanks.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
9pylon 10gate seems better in my eyes, you get the gateway faster for like 4 minerals lost. I'm not a protoss player but doesn't this make defending proxy 2gate easier? Tbh this discussion reminds me of 9/10 overlord vs extractor trick, where it's just easier to 9overlord since it hardly makes a difference :p
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Any hope of expanding with this build? 
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I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game.
Very interesting... this build could be really effective when 4gate becomes very uncommon in that case (I haven't watched PvP post-patch, so not sure if anyone even 4gates nowadays)
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Wasn't it I who posted like yesterday that someone needed to redefine the PvP match up -.- Well congrats to Cecil this should be very interesting PvZ as well.
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I don't understand why faking a 4-gate is a good idea as a build. Would it not just simply force the opponent into producing extra gateways and possibly killing you in the process since you will not have enough army for some time to defend.
Say all you want about "Yeah, thats why we scout!" and all that but on the games where you don't play perfectly you are going to be steamrolled by an opponent that is pissed off that you forced them to 4-gate to defend.
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How does this fare against a Tyler style 2 gate robo opening? Since both of you are 10 gating, I would have to think that you 2 gate build should end up behind as he will have a tech advantage and pretty similar army strength. I could be wrong though. Nice guide ^^
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On June 18 2011 03:38 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 03:26 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote:
Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush.
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings + Show Spoiler +I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p.
TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals).
Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player. Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate.
Interesting, there was a lot of discussion about this back in the early days of the beta and the conclusions were that 10pylon 10gate were better and so I've just stuck to it as gospel truth since then but it seems pretty incorrect for pylon near your nexus.
Came up with pretty much the exact same results as you when i tested it myself.
9 pylon 10 gate
0:46 pylon
10th probe cut from 0:51 to 0:55 (1:12 finish)
1:18 gateway
1:25 start 11th probe
10 pylon 10 gate
0:55 pylon
10th 1:08 finish
1:20 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
5 seconds of mining time for 2 seconds on a gateway seems like a reasonable trade given that you aren't going for an economy advantage with a 10gate.
I am converted.
I think 11gate might but slightly different but that's for a different topic.
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On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game.
Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent.
Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though.
Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player.
Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming.
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On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming.
Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack.
Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp.
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On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp.
I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution.
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On June 21 2011 04:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp. I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution.
Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with you either :p I just wanted to emphasize a weakness of this build. I still use this build all the time. And you can always play mind games with your opponent and do a defensive 3 gate against your opponent if you think they will 4 gate you.
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On June 21 2011 04:44 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 04:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 21 2011 04:22 Anihc wrote:On June 21 2011 02:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year.
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter.
I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim).
So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Against a 4 gate you'd have about a 30 second timing window where you have more units, although if they have a sentry as you go up the ramp you should lose a unit like you said. Maybe two if you have worse micro than your opponent. Also after the engagement you won't be able to have 4 gates like they have, although you can tech quicker. Kiwikaki's pvp situation is a lot different than most peoples', so I don't think his personal preference would apply to everyone. Thanks a lot for the valuable information though. Also someone was asking why you'd ever fake a 4 gate? If your opponent is expecting a lot of gateway units they won't be prepared for whatever you actually do, and it gives you a lot of freedom not usually given to a player. Edit: For the record I agree it's not a build you want to run if someone knows it's coming. Time is correct - 4 gate beats this build. The strength in this build is that it looks like a really aggressive build so people who do defensive 4 gate followed by tech will actually end up being behind. If they see through this and 4 gate anyway, it can be difficult to hold off the counter attack. Also the window where you have more units is definitely much less than 30 seconds - at most it's about 15 seconds (anything more than that and your opponent is just doing a dumb build), and usually less if you are unable to set up your proxy pylon very close to their ramp. I was considering the 30 seconds the difference in warpgate times, but that would translate to less time if you were counting actual time up their ramp. I didn't say Time was incorrect, I agreed with him and with you. It's just most of the time when I throw a build like this at someone, it's with in mind that they won't know the perfect reactions, or if they lack experience (which most people do, which is why Kiwikaki's situation is different) they'll likely react with poor execution. Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with you either :p I just wanted to emphasize a weakness of this build. I still use this build all the time. And you can always play mind games with your opponent and do a defensive 3 gate against your opponent if you think they will 4 gate you.
Or better yet in a bo-series, use this build one game. Then in another game you can early gate and bait an offensive 4 gate from the opponent. A lot can go on if you show the opponent you can do this opening
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bookmarked this, sounds great
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I want to try this v a FE zerg... My main downfall...
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On June 22 2011 01:20 Strykerz wrote:
I want to try this v a FE zerg... My main downfall...
Hey I really want to see the replay of you trying!
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To confirm. This build is more of a very aggressive opening that is used to punish fast tech builds / force a defensive 4 gate but should not be able to outright kill an opponent - correct?
In other words, if I get in the base, snipe a few probes and "throw an opponent off their game" it's fulfilled its purpose?
Thanks Cecil
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On June 22 2011 01:50 QTIP. wrote:
To confirm. This build is more of a very aggressive opening that is used to punish fast tech builds / force a defensive 4 gate but should not be able to outright kill an opponent - correct?
In other words, if I get in the base, snipe a few probes and "throw an opponent off their game" it's fulfilled its purpose?
Thanks Cecil
If the opponent is reacting poorly you can at times just kill them. I do this all the time. But if they are a decent player and react more along the appropriate lines you shouldn't be able to just kill them.
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Perhaps I'm making some mistake I'm not seeing here, but I believe I'm following your BO exactly, and everytime I send my zealot over, it get picked off by a stalker even if I scout a 13 gate. Are there only a small number of maps that you can actually get aggressive with the zealot?
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On June 22 2011 02:08 giuocob wrote:
Perhaps I'm making some mistake I'm not seeing here, but I believe I'm following your BO exactly, and everytime I send my zealot over, it get picked off by a stalker even if I scout a 13 gate. Are there only a small number of maps that you can actually get aggressive with the zealot?
Shouldn't you be able to tell when the enemy core finishes with a scout probe? If your Zealot is going to get there when a Stalker could be finished, then don't passed the Xel'Naga Towers. You should be able to run a Zealot from the Tower back to your base in the event you see a Stalker coming.
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Okay i've been using this build, and as you did say it gets semi countered by 3 stalker opening, basically u have to have better micro and outplay your opponent when u have two stalkers and a zealot. Is there a transition where if i see them putting down that second gateway?
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On June 22 2011 02:22 jcroisdale wrote:
Okay i've been using this build, and as you did say it gets semi countered by 3 stalker opening, basically u have to have better micro and outplay your opponent when u have two stalkers and a zealot. Is there a transition where if i see them putting down that second gateway?
Add a 3rd/4th gateway after your 3rd pylon, put your 3rd pylon on your half of the map so it doesn't get shut down, use your 1z/4s to push to his side of the map and add proxy pylons and 4 gate.
Or add a 2nd gas after you start your 2nd stalker and tech whatever you want while using your 1z/4s to have map control and potentially hunt down his 3 stalkers (if you're lucky).
As for how to counter the build - I'd think a gate robo gate build might do the trick. Zealot - stalker - sentry, use the sentry to force field for 15 seconds while chronoing out an immortal, warp in more sentries once warpgate is done. Sadly I can't quite comment on the timing. I know a 10gate robo gate stops it but im not sure if a 12 gate would.
I'd probably just go for the triple stalker build in to a 3gate robo. It should delay his proxy pylon from being close to you - add a 3rd gate and a sentry after the 3 stalkers. You can add a robo as soon as you know you aren't getting 4 gated, otherwise you should be able to defend with your 3 gates if he 4 gates.
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I have tried it out on ladder (@3750 master). It can work but it is a little cheesy.
Against four gate, it doesn't work from my experience, because you can't stop the counter. I also defeated someone going this build by going 4 gate myself.
It might be a good build in a boX tough.
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I have been using this build ever since I saw the match, I couldn't believe no thread was posted about this build as it is not only deadly, but has fun early micro aspect to it once you get the your first warp in. I have gotten a lot of ladder opponents ask me about the build after games. I am actually glad to see a thread about it now because I think it can evolve into other new PvP builds, and to have someone like Cecil create the thread is a blessing in its own right. Thanks Cecil and keep up the amazing work :D
Edit: Also just one tweak I do on Xel'naga(should work with any other 2 player map as well) that I have found very helpful is to not scout with probe but instead scout with zealot since you know where your opponent is. Leaving the probe at home mining has allowed me to put my robo down after my first stalker warp in and get my ob/first immortal out quicker. This could also be from not-perfect macro since I am only a mid-diamond, but something I think that should be noted and tried. You must put your building placement like Tails does to spot cannon rushes since you are later scouting. If anyone tries it please let me know your thoughts, thank you
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On a map like Xel Naga where proxy gates and cannon rushes etc. are popular/viable (2 player map..) it's a bit silly to just not scout.. plus you may be in danger of losing your zealot if he went an early gate and no early zealot (quick stalker hunts it down)
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Ill try this tonight on ladder, thanks for the write-up!
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Is your bnet tag Kiwikaki? On NA cause I had a bo3 with a kiwikaki(not the real one) I lost 1-2 and he used this exact opening, it was either yesterday or he day before
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On June 23 2011 03:08 MERLIN. wrote:
Is your bnet tag Kiwikaki? On NA cause I had a bo3 with a kiwikaki(not the real one) I lost 1-2 and he used this exact opening, it was either yesterday or he day before
Nope that wasn't me. My ID is just CecilSunkure.
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Hey, Cecil can you try this build on me? Axel.145 For me, I follow the exact build and always hit the ramp at 5:30-35
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On June 23 2011 03:39 Axel.Bowex wrote:
Hey, Cecil can you try this build on me? Axel.145 For me, I follow the exact build and always hit the ramp at 5:30-35
Yeah sure go ahead and msg me when you see me online. CecilSunkure.934
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A note on the screenshots: Tails actually sniped 3 probes in that moment.
Also: thank you for sharing!
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Hmm, after further thought it's an interesting build, but it feels like any protoss who scouts a 10 gate with an extra chrono saved up is going to automatically assume heavy/early 4 gate - which I'd think the standard response would be the 3 stalker rush(if done PROPERLY, it will delay this enough.). Maybe you're just hoping for them to overcompensate for the 10gate though while you're teching...you should be ahead in tech I suppose with this build if done properly (he shouldn't be comfortable teching unless he 10 gated himself), but if he 4 gates you I don't think you can actually hold it assuming you transition in to TC/SG/robo and not more gates ( i don't like builds that cant hold 4gate :/). Also, a proper response will have you behind in probes (I think?) compared to a 3 stalker rush...depending when you start probe production again (I assume after your proxy pylon is finished and you're not supply blocked). And he'll know pretty quickly you aren't 4 gating him when you aren't pressuring his ramp heavily.
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So what if they do the 3 stalker build,. you get to their ramp and they do have that sentry BUT they've also stolen your gas. You're now behind on tech and units correct?
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Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol.
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On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol.
He double gassed this time though. Fairly early too, iirc. Presumably he had some transition planned out of it, but he didn't need to show it.
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On July 01 2011 13:38 Whynaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol. He double gassed this time though. Fairly early too, iirc. Presumably he had some transition planned out of it, but he didn't need to show it.
what? I thought I only saw one gas :S
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On July 01 2011 13:45 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 13:38 Whynaut wrote:On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol. He double gassed this time though. Fairly early too, iirc. Presumably he had some transition planned out of it, but he didn't need to show it. what? I thought I only saw one gas :S
me too, but i cant be sure.
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What did the other guy do?
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13 gate (ouch) with a super late warp gate, it was weird, it wasn't really the quick 3 stalker build, but he used like 3 chrono's on his gateway's to get more stalkers out (no sentries) but his warpgate was soooooooooooo late from the 13 gate and no chronos on warpgate. tails got like 2 warpins before vv was putting his gates in to warp gate mode
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On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol.
Do you know where I can watch or download this set of games?
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On July 01 2011 16:47 Dexemper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol. Do you know where I can watch or download this set of games?
You will have to buy a season ticket for the GSL July to be able to see game 2 of this series. For $9.99 its worth it imo. www.gomtv.net
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GSL Code A Spoiler+ Show Spoiler +
is this the same build that I just saw MVPTails beat vanvanth on Xel Naga Caverns today?
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On July 01 2011 18:10 Wildsound wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 16:47 Dexemper wrote:On July 01 2011 13:27 Complete wrote:
Vanvanneth vs Tails game 2 Xel naga GSL Code A
tails just used this build. He just straight up killed him with 2 gates though lol. Do you know where I can watch or download this set of games? You will have to buy a season ticket for the GSL July to be able to see game 2 of this series. For $9.99 its worth it imo. www.gomtv.net
I see, thanks Wild for the info
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On July 01 2011 18:29 Zedders wrote:GSL Code A Spoiler + Show Spoiler +
is this the same build that I just saw MVPTails beat vanvanth on Xel Naga Caverns today?
Yes it is.
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On July 01 2011 18:29 Zedders wrote:GSL Code A Spoiler + Show Spoiler +
is this the same build that I just saw MVPTails beat vanvanth on Xel Naga Caverns today?
Almost. He didn't chrono his probes at all and instead chrono'd his first zealot this time.
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I feel like most people will see 10 gate and go "oh this kid is gonna do korean 4 gate and pump out zealots instead of going for fast wg, which should make the 4 gate followup very strong
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This is interesting. Not something I'd personally use but something I'd like to play against.
Usually 10 gate is done to get a 3 wpg stalker rush. By going 2 gate instead he has the minerals to make a zealot to help his earlygame map control and more proxy pylons.
How I would play against it... If I scout his build before 18 supply I would go 3 stalker (no chrono). If my scout is too late and I only have 1 gate, I guess I would get a sentry after stalker.. What I would do though is during the skirmishes I would shift-queue my scout probe back into your base and if I see only 2 gates I would warp a pylon in your base/mineral line. So as long as I can stay alive, I can warp in zealots into your minerals, and 2 gates cannot possibly hold 4 gates zealots. (your army is going to be out on the map too)
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On July 02 2011 07:12 Arch00 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 18:29 Zedders wrote:GSL Code A Spoiler + Show Spoiler +
is this the same build that I just saw MVPTails beat vanvanth on Xel Naga Caverns today?
Almost. He didn't chrono his probes at all and instead chrono'd his first zealot this time.
I think, however, that was in response to seeing something he scouted. He must have thought he could do some sort of damage by getting it earlier
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I've been using this build on every PvP lately, and I've found that if your opponent is doing a blink stalker build, you will ultimately lose in the end.
Every time I play, if my opponent goes blink stalker, sure I have an immortal, but when I do a 2 collo w/ range timing push, he already has archons. Because of the twilight tech, I feel that ultimately, the weakness of this build is that if the opponent goes for a blink based build, and they are smart enough to go archons, you will vcome out the loser in the end.
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Hey guys, I know this build is a bit old and meant for PvP, but has anyone tried this in PvT/PvZ? I worked out some of the timings against Zerg, but I don't know how effective it will be at defending a 2 base baneling bust after you force a lot of speedlings. Also, vs Terran, this build could be similar to the Naniwa build where he does a 2 gate pressure into expand, but it will come earlier. Anyone think it's viable in all matchups?
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On November 22 2011 01:40 ma70 wrote:
Hey guys, I know this build is a bit old and meant for PvP, but has anyone tried this in PvT/PvZ? I worked out some of the timings against Zerg, but I don't know how effective it will be at defending a 2 base baneling bust after you force a lot of speedlings. Also, vs Terran, this build could be similar to the Naniwa build where he does a 2 gate pressure into expand, but it will come earlier. Anyone think it's viable in all matchups?
Only thing I can think of is maybe getting an easy win against a Zerg that delayed their Vespene by a long time, letting you wreak havoc with the early Stalker warpins.
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On November 22 2011 01:42 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:40 ma70 wrote:
Hey guys, I know this build is a bit old and meant for PvP, but has anyone tried this in PvT/PvZ? I worked out some of the timings against Zerg, but I don't know how effective it will be at defending a 2 base baneling bust after you force a lot of speedlings. Also, vs Terran, this build could be similar to the Naniwa build where he does a 2 gate pressure into expand, but it will come earlier. Anyone think it's viable in all matchups? Only thing I can think of is maybe getting an easy win against a Zerg that delayed their Vespene by a long time, letting you wreak havoc with the early Stalker warpins.
Yeah I was thinking against Hatch first or just late gas in general this could rock....but against Speedling expand could you warp-in pure zealots at the Proxy instead to force lots of lings? The timing would still be pretty early and I don't think they would have a lot of larva/units at the timing, right?
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A guy got so mad at me for beating him with this... He went 3 gate robo, and then he raged and said I was a noob for using 4 gate every game. I had like 3 gates by the time he left lol.
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a very nice guide. i also like to play in PvT and PvP.
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Every time i try to get the pylon up they snipe my probe.. and i calculated you only get wg up 17 seconds faster (experimental value when i tried) or maybe max 20, not sure, so if you try to walk into their base from a pylon that isn't directly next to it, they will have their 4gate units already warping in. if you have the pylon at the edge of their natural it takes about 15 seconds just to walk up his ramp.
I feel this is too easily countered and doesn't usually do any damage.. if they see 10 gate they just get out a couple more units and they can easily kill the proxy pylon because it has to be right in their natural
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with this, i win most of my pvp's, even cannon rushes :D
but blink stalkers seem to beat this no matter what :/
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You guys have to realize this was written last year and the metagame has shifted.
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EPT
