EPTAfter the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus.
Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish.
[G] 2 WarpGate Rush [Fake 4 Gate] - Page 2
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Nostrada
Finland13 Posts
After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus. Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. | ||
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ma70
253 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 18 2011 02:52 Nostrada wrote: Seems like a good build. I beat an opponent who did 3 stalker rush. After the 26 proxy pylon I get 2nd gas, extra pylon and queue a worker in nexus. Still I can warp in the 2 stalkers when warp gates finish. Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On June 18 2011 03:26 CecilSunkure wrote: Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings+ Show Spoiler +Yep that's what I believe Tails did. I left the second assim out of the bo because you can spend the money on other things as well. Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p. TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals). Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player. Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 18 2011 03:38 Alsn wrote: Spoilered my pre-edit2 ramblings+ Show Spoiler + I tested it and if you are doing near-nexus pylon a 10p10g would have the pylon finish when you have around 170 minerals(meaning, you would have to wait for about 1-2 seconds to start the gate even though you can afford it). At the ramp I would reckon that even though the probe has to travel slightly longer, it wouldn't mine 20 minerals in the time it takes to go near the ramp and back. On the other hand, you only really gain about 2-3 seconds of cut probemaking for a single probe(which is like, what, 3 minerals?) which wouldn't make you hit the 150 minerals required for the gate faster than with a 9p. TLDR: 10p10g slightly delays the gateway for maybe a second because the pylon doesn't finish in time to place the gate, the only advantage is about half a worker round of minerals(2-3 minerals). Also, 10p10g is extremely unforgiving if you place the pylon even a second too late(since you're waiting for the pylon, not for the minerals). Edit: I guess it depends on if you want to scout after pylon, but with a 10gate I don't really see the point in scouting after pylon as opposed to gate, but meh, I'm not a protoss player. Edit2: Made a proper test at the ramp with good probe-pull timing and perfect pylon timing. I had to wait about half a second for the pylon to finish. At this point I think it's a toss up, you don't really lose much by going 10p10g but you have 2 chances to mess up as opposed to 1. Placing a 9 pylon slightly late makes no difference but placing a 10pylon requires perfect timing as every millisecond you are late is a millisecond that you delay your gate. Thanks a lot. Sounds to me like a matter of personal preference. So, personally I prefer to just do what Tails did. | ||
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Mairou
Finland144 Posts
Also if someone has some documented proof 10 pylon is better, I'd be happy to change the starting bo. If you go 9 pylon you cant constantly build probes. With 10 pylon you get your 10th much faster and when the pylon is finished you have little bit over 150 minerals. day9 also used this 10 pylon 10 gate in one of hes pvp builds that he made with liquid tyler. It was almost the as this but it was defensive build. 1gate robo where you get your immortal, sentry, stalker, zealot and 2 gateway out at 5 minute mark. edit: i tested which one is better and it seems like 9 pylon allows you to make gateway about 2 seconds faster, but 10pylon is more economic. You can also chrono boost as soonest you hit 25 energy to get your probes faster when you go 10 pylon. | ||
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Smoodish
United States95 Posts
I've played u in ladder  | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:01 Smoodish wrote: Nice cecil, as always u give good builds. I've played u in ladder Thanks a ton! Did I Immortal drop you? Please say yes.. | ||
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Nostrada
Finland13 Posts
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daralharb
United States59 Posts
Cecil, could you be so kind as to list the advantages of this compared to the Adel build? Thank you | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 18 2011 06:31 daralharb wrote: This is an interesting build. I'm not sure how different this is from the Adel Scott no gas opening which puts out 3 zealots and 2 stalkers in a similar time frame. With the Adel opening you don't have to sacrifice probes and can hit before a standard 4 gate. Cecil, could you be so kind as to list the advantages of this compared to the Adel build? Thank you Adel: -Delayed WG Tech -Delayed Vespene -Impossible to kill scout probe -Higher probe count and economy than normal -Little offensive ability vs certain openings 2 Gate Rush: -Slight economy hit -Faster WG tech -Versatile transition paths, map control -Generally gives army advantage Edit: Basically, the 2 Gate lets you negate defender's advantage due to travel time, and lets you get more Stalkers, all for a cost in economy. | ||
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daralharb
United States59 Posts
Adel: -Delayed WG Tech -Delayed Vespene -Impossible to kill scout probe -Higher probe count and economy than normal -Little offensive ability vs certain openings 2 Gate Rush: -Slight economy hit -Faster WG tech -Versatile transition paths, map control -Generally gives army advantage Edit: Basically, the 2 Gate lets you negate defender's advantage due to travel time, and lets you get more Stalkers, all for a cost in economy.[/QUOTE] Thanks much! Glad you could clarify that for me. I think I'll give it a try next game! | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On June 18 2011 03:57 Mairou wrote: Emphasis mine.If you go 9 pylon you cant constantly build probes. With 10 pylon you get your 10th much faster and when the pylon is finished you have little bit over 150 minerals. day9 also used this 10 pylon 10 gate in one of hes pvp builds that he made with liquid tyler. It was almost the as this but it was defensive build. 1gate robo where you get your immortal, sentry, stalker, zealot and 2 gateway out at 5 minute mark. edit: i tested which one is better and it seems like 9 pylon allows you to make gateway about 2 seconds faster, but 10pylon is more economic. You can also chrono boost as soonest you hit 25 energy to get your probes faster when you go 10 pylon. I don't understand, for all intents and purposes 10pylon10gate has equal econ to 9pylon10gate. You have a delay of about 3-4 seconds for a single probe when you do 9pylon as opposed to 10 pylon. How you can argue that that's a difference economically is just ludicrous to me. By the time you start your 11th probe, which you will start at the exact same time with both variations(within a few tenths of a second) you have the same food, the same amount of probes, the same energy on your nexus, the same everything. There is no trade-off economically because you will always have the same amount of probes at the same time with both builds(except for the 10th probe and only for a few seconds which makes no difference) since the pylon completes before you want to start building probes with both builds. In a build where the timing of the gate didn't matter for some reason I can agree that having a miniscule amount of minerals more by going 10pylon would be beneficial. But why would you ever want to 10gate if not to place an early a gate as you possibly can? I just can't see a good reason. (To clarify, I'm only arguing against your claim that 10pylon is more economical. I am not saying that 10pylon is better or worse than 9pylon, only pointing out that the differences are minimal.) Edit: Sorry for derailing the thread, please resume discussing the strategy and don't mind my little rant, thanks. | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
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Volka
Argentina408 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter. I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim). So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. | ||
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On June 18 2011 09:29 PJA wrote: I tried this build out a lot around the time of MLG Dallas, and KiWiKaKi used this type of build back during MLG Raleigh and MLG DC last year. I think it's amazing in BoX series, and is really good for punishing people who tech too quickly, as you can often force them to cut/pull probes and come out ahead on econ and tech. It's very weak against 4 gate, though, as you will almost certainly lose a unit or at least a probe pressuring them early. Between that and cutting a few probes, they'll easily have 2-3 more units when they counter. I also asked KiWiKaKi at Dallas why he stopped using this build, and he said that you do not have enough units against 4 gate (this is more or less verbatim). So, not a good standard build, but good for punishing greedy builds as well as throwing people off their game. Very interesting... this build could be really effective when 4gate becomes very uncommon in that case (I haven't watched PvP post-patch, so not sure if anyone even 4gates nowadays) | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Say all you want about "Yeah, thats why we scout!" and all that but on the games where you don't play perfectly you are going to be steamrolled by an opponent that is pissed off that you forced them to 4-gate to defend. | ||
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dronefarm
United States260 Posts
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