Banshees bring me to another thing. Is it better to pump medivacs or Banshee from the star port? I am constantly pumping rines out of a reactor and they only have 45 health. Banshees are actually more cost effective in terms of gas than medivacs (longer build time), but I am reluctant to burn 200/200 on cloak that early, or ever in my games. And the excess energy on them goes to waste. Even if I am going Thors (against Phoenix, and Banshees mix well with that), I just go Viking instead if I see colossi, and a couple of medivacs.

I actually skip cloak and use the banshee for DPS and scouting. I like using it more than the raven since it's less gas intensive and I wanna put all my gas into more tanks, but the raven will keep you safe against DTs and lets you lock down an area with PDD, so there's a case for both of them.

Naturally, your opponent is forced to rush an observer out when he sees a banshee anyway.

wordd

Australia190 Posts

June 16 2011 01:29 GMT

#165

hey Warden any idea about 3 gate pressure expo?

Blamajama

156 Posts

June 16 2011 03:27 GMT

#166

Yeah but banshees would dictate a more stalker heavy responses, and you may be a PDD or a Raven short in the engagement. If you are going for Thors, then I'd go to Banshee production but not Tank/Banshee. Vikings have bigger range and will provide the vision for tanks, while keeping air superiority.

XDJuicebox

United States593 Posts

June 16 2011 06:17 GMT

#167

This seems great! But I'm sorry, when I saw this, I couldn't help but think of Artosis and
"IF HE BUILDS ONE OF EVERYTHING, HOW DO I COUNTER IT!?!?!?!"

I've always despised the lack of Tanks in TvP, but I will give this a try and see if this fixes that. :D

Maxus

France7 Posts

June 16 2011 12:03 GMT

#168

Thanks so much for this really well written post!

Hope this will improve my TvP (worst matchup atm)

JimCozad

Belgium47 Posts

June 16 2011 12:47 GMT

#169

After practicing it a couple times I gave it a shot on ladder and I must say it feels like a solid build. My opponent (ok not masters but 1350 diamond) immidately asked "how to stop this".

Then you know you're doing something right, I guess

Thx for the guide!

maddogawl

United States63 Posts

June 16 2011 13:01 GMT

#170

I've tried this build a lot, and am really excited everytime the battle starts, but it barely ever works for me. Granted i'm only diamond, and my mechanics and unit control are lacking. I say that using this build requires masterful positioning and amazing mechanics, which I am not good enough to utilize the full potential. There are some things that I want to try that I noticed you did.

1. I noticed you only attack normally with 4 - 5 tanks, where I would have 7 or more at the same point, so you cut tanks, I am not.
2. Your ghost timing seems different in each game, I think I need to learn what triggers that response.
3. Early game pressure is really hard to hold off on some maps, where I think a 2 rax expand into factory and port is probably better for me.
4. It seems to me this build is really powerful on maps with a choke, but I've struggled severely on open maps like shattered temple.

Awesome guide none the less, and I have to say your unit control in the replays is amazing.

Blamajama

156 Posts

June 16 2011 14:17 GMT

#171

Skip armory for an earlier academy if you see early blink play into HT's. Or if you see 3-4+ immortals and no colossi, get ghosts sooner.

-miDnight-

Taiwan455 Posts

June 16 2011 20:17 GMT

#172

1 replay is better than thousands word, good post

gavinashun

101 Posts

June 16 2011 23:25 GMT

#173

@maddowgawl ... low diamond, whose been playing this build now for a while (and was doing something similar off and on previously)

1. You will need to cut a few tanks, in order to be able to get the raven, and the 1-2 banshees which makes taking your expo super easy, while also putting some harass on opp ... also you'll want to get a few rounds of reactor vikings in as well (if protoss goes colossus, which is common of course) ... with all that plus upgrades (stim/combat shield/siege/blue flame/+1/concus) you're not going to have gas for constant tank production. That said, tank production is *mostly* constant in my experience.

2. What Blamajama said

3. Hmm... I think this build is incredibly safe vs. early pressure. Early bunker keeps you safe from zealot/stalker poke, and then tank/reactor marines/1-2 bunkers/+/- banshee keeps you very safe from 4-gate ... and once you get siege you can break out of any contain pretty easily ... you'd have to post a replay to get more feedback on any early pressure problems

4. This build actually takes its expansion very safely (and a bit late) since you're not expanding until you have 2 siege tanks and 1-2 banshees + a lot of marines. 2-3 siege tanks, 2 bunkers, and lots of marines (+ whatever else you get based on your reaction to opponent) is pretty darn safe regardless of the map. Also not sure if that was a typo, because shattered temple does have a pretty narrow choke on its natural...

Ydriel

Italy516 Posts

June 16 2011 23:49 GMT

#174

Ohhh, pretty awesome. I've been trying to work on getting away from bio based armies in TvP and trying to ranch into 1-1-1 openings, but I've always found my mid-game to be quite weak as a result. Also, more tank usage = goooood.

13JackaL

United States577 Posts

June 16 2011 23:58 GMT

#175

Aweseeome guide. It doesn't just help us with the build itself, but it basically explains nearly every protoss opening in the game and what to scout for/expect, which I'm sure would benefit many clueless scouters.

United States30 Posts

June 17 2011 00:24 GMT

#176

I haven't been helped this much by a guide since Stylish's FPVODs for brood war. This is very well written. Thank you! Like others in the thread have said, I think a TvZ and TvT follow up would be equally well-received.

CodECleaR

United States395 Posts

June 17 2011 01:27 GMT

#177

Hmmm i ran into this on the ladder and was wondering if there IS a counter to the terran deathball style. A counter section of the guide would make it more boss.

xTrim

472 Posts

June 17 2011 08:00 GMT

#178

I liked it, I used it. I won with it and I also got owned big time by carriers!!

eric2532

United States3 Posts

June 17 2011 08:41 GMT

#179

Tried it on GM lvl in TW server, the Terran death ball of Warden works extremely well. I see hope for late mid game on TVP.

Cikop

Poland28 Posts

June 17 2011 08:45 GMT

#180

As a protoss user I find this thread realy scary ...
Especialy the "scout->couter->win" part. I love to 1gate FE but i am aware that if T thors rushes I am dead. It didnt happent to often but it might change after your post.
Anyway Good Job.
Maybe you could race switch and make a simmilar guide for P