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Well written guide.
However the build relies prety much on mostly standart play . And it is even with standart play mostly stopable well that is still good at this game nothing macro 1a2a3a imba atm.
You should try when this is already your main terretory to find solutions for people who can deal with that style i know that once 1 push is stopped you wont have any unit upgrades wich is auto lose bio mech itself is viable aswell .
I lost to only 1 terran thus far who played split map mech with turret creeping and air support towards my with having a critical mass of tanks wich wont allow me pushes , pf support inclusive and as final touch adding vikings and BCs to stop a maxed carrier fleet from doing any damage.
Please consinder to abuse cost effectiveness for getting protoss into a nearly unwinable situation ,ty. Gotta get this TvP a bit more evolved since bio itself as opener is mostly the easy mode for protosses. Also think about playing on EU using NA ladder for slaying people is not practise beneficial
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On June 14 2011 13:26 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 12:46 Tenspeed wrote:On June 14 2011 12:08 kNightLite wrote:
Wonderful guide. I really liked how you showed scouting information (gas, gates, chrono) could be used to predict the opponent's build.
Most guides don't go down to that level of detail, they just say "oh, if he builds unit X then you build unit Y", but they don't tell you how to see unit X coming.
My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. Far too many people do it nowadays. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly. Most everybody's builds are fleshed out on the ladder (obviously you didn't craft this in isolation), which means that this build is a public resource...not a private one.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to put together the great guide. I hope you get featured. I fail to see how he named the build after himself? The OP simply states that his (i.e Warden's TvP) consists of a 1:1:1 into the terran equivalent of a toss deathball. Anyway, I really don't see why we should begrudge people of sticking their name on whatever builds/tricks/shenanigans they come up with. If the build is a total rip-off or merely a more polished version of something we saw in the GSL a few weeks ago, the name likely won't stick, and if it does we've simply ended up with some (hopefully) more convenient terminology. I dread the day I have to refer my my Maka-rax as an almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax. There's a big difference between Artosis naming Maka's almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax a "Maka Rax", and Maka himself making a thread saying THIS IS MY RAX LOLOLOL (no matter how good the guide is) This post was made by Griffith(TM).
Ah, but the fact remains he still did not actually name the build after himself. Furthermore, I just threw the maka-rax in there to illustrate what I meant by convenient terminology, I'm well aware the term was not coined by maka himself.
I can appreciate why you would think it presumtuous to name a build/style after yourself but I believe that in the long run such considerations will have to give in to practicality. Anywhooo, this is clearly belongs in another thread so I'll stop right here=)
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definitely gonna hit this up!
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so much good info done with humour 
tyvm.
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Thanks a lot for the time you spend writing this guide. The whole scouting info analysis is enough to make it an awesome post.
Yet, I have a question: I know 20% of lost games is not that much but are there some toss styles you have hard times with?
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So those implementing this build, I am curious to know when you transition into what when your second base is up. I basically pressure (or try to) with a raven/PDD and marine/tank at the 8:30 mark and then proceed to take my expansion as I attack. Then I build
1) 2 more rax (teched) for marauder/upgrades.
2) Vikings out of my star port (maybe use one for reconnaissance over the protoss base)
3) 2 more factories reactored with BF (For quick helions to deal with charge lot and probe harass)
4) Swap one reactored factory for a teched rax (Ghost out of one rax, marine/tank/helion out of the rest.
5) After third base (add a reactored port and another factory and more Bays/Armories for ups)
What tends to happen is that I can go for a two base all in push while simultaneously taking a third to replenish scv count. But in my losses, it's either not enough Vikings, not enough Ghosts, or just bad micro. However, I think the mid game double reactor factories really assists with mid game charge lot push.
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@ Blamajama ... OP states that after 2nd base you gear up for a push at around 150 food. This is after you've got your 6 production buildings up. This would be much later than 8:30 - more like 11-15 min most likely. OP also recommends taking 3rd behind this attack, and moving into heavier ghost + upgrades after taking 3rd (if game goes on)
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great guide, listing all of the scouting possibilities with replays of each one makes this probably the best guide i have ever seen.
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@OP, this is much more of a really cool general 1-1-1 TvP Guide. You should make a flow chart.
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On June 15 2011 10:04 gavinashun wrote:
@ Blamajama ... OP states that after 2nd base you gear up for a push at around 150 food. This is after you've got your 6 production buildings up. This would be much later than 8:30 - more like 11-15 min most likely. OP also recommends taking 3rd behind this attack, and moving into heavier ghost + upgrades after taking 3rd (if game goes on)
Not to take anything away from the OP, but I was already incorporating a similar 2-3 base build in my TvP's, now I am slightly refining it to fit my style. The two teched rax makes more sense then what I was doing before, but I basically was doing the jist of this minus all the details and depth listed in this guide. For people having trouble with mid game charge lot, I just threw out a suggestion that had been working for me.
I don't like implementing a build exactly as it is listed in a guide or shown in a replay. I take the build and then tweak it to my preferences to fit my style of play. This guide obviously filled me in on the key details I was missing, but I am going to be pretty consistent with what I have now, which is basically the same composition terran death ball. I just never seem to have the scouting information in my TvP's to react as this guide explains, and I refuse to waste scans, so I until then, I can't really make any radical changes to my early game. Until I understand the game to that detail, I probably won't get to a GM level, but I am not sure if even want to take my gaming that far... obviously want to improve though.
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What a grandiose guide lightening my TvP and how to read the opening and react accordingly :D
May the Force be (and stay) with You Warden <3
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On June 15 2011 00:05 Serashin wrote:
Well written guide.
However the build relies prety much on mostly standart play . And it is even with standart play mostly stopable well that is still good at this game nothing macro 1a2a3a imba atm.
You should try when this is already your main terretory to find solutions for people who can deal with that style i know that once 1 push is stopped you wont have any unit upgrades wich is auto lose bio mech itself is viable aswell .
I lost to only 1 terran thus far who played split map mech with turret creeping and air support towards my with having a critical mass of tanks wich wont allow me pushes , pf support inclusive and as final touch adding vikings and BCs to stop a maxed carrier fleet from doing any damage.
Please consinder to abuse cost effectiveness for getting protoss into a nearly unwinable situation ,ty. Gotta get this TvP a bit more evolved since bio itself as opener is mostly the easy mode for protosses. Also think about playing on EU using NA ladder for slaying people is not practise beneficial
Can someone translate?
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IMO the toughest thing about this is actually remembering what everything that you see with your scouting means. This info is very useful not only for this build but for TvP in general.
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i didnt use the exact BO, but i played TvP with a MM/tank/viking/medivac/hellion build , pushing/getting 3rd with 150 food and i CRUSHED the toss quite comfortably. i used hellions for harass while turtling at the 3rd at xel naga caverns. I was surprised at the effectiveness of this comp. Toss went gateway/colloxen/immortal i play at top10 masters ladder
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Okay.... so this guy 16 Nexus' and I skip the star port for the armory and go for a Thor all in with 12-14 scvs and marines. The guy holds it off seamlessly and wins by putting 3 cannons at the choke and warping in lots. It was a highground expansion on Shakturas... but I thought I would take it ez. Anything that I can do differently in the future?
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Shakuras is way too huge to effectively thor all-in. Personally I think you'd be better off with some kind of marine/tank/banshee|raven push on Shakuras, where there are lots of good angles to shoot up the cliffs and PDD lets you shut down protoss movement. The build should be tunable to let you do that from your scouting.
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This is definitely one of the strongest and safest builds with ample harassment opportunity indeed.
There are of course a feel weakness against more macro/upgrade/gateway unit focused builds but you have ample opportunity to use your lead in tech to level the field or even gain the advantage. Excellent build.
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On June 15 2011 22:48 Tracil wrote:
Shakuras is way too huge to effectively thor all-in. Personally I think you'd be better off with some kind of marine/tank/banshee|raven push on Shakuras, where there are lots of good angles to shoot up the cliffs and PDD lets you shut down protoss movement. The build should be tunable to let you do that from your scouting.
Banshees bring me to another thing. Is it better to pump medivacs or Banshee from the star port? I am constantly pumping rines out of a reactor and they only have 45 health. Banshees are actually more cost effective in terms of gas than medivacs (longer build time), but I am reluctant to burn 200/200 on cloak that early, or ever in my games. And the excess energy on them goes to waste. Even if I am going Thors (against Phoenix, and Banshees mix well with that), I just go Viking instead if I see colossi, and a couple of medivacs.
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If a protoss took a quick 3rd expansion on a map like tal'darim or other maps with relatively easy to defend 3rd bases, should I attack prematurely to avoid him getting a base up, or is it better to still wait until the 150 food timing?
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@ alphafuzard
I'm obviously not the OP and am only low diamond ... so I don't have much credibility!
But I would think in this scenario you should attack earlier. It probably won't be that much before the 150 food though - protoss really isn't going to take their 3rd too much before 11-12 minutes, which shouldn't be too far before you get up to 150'ish.
My2cents!
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EPT
