EPT[D] Terran Bio Ball Late Game - Page 2
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Enwrit
United States39 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
not to mention that tanks really just aren't that good against colossus, blink stalker, chargelots when they can engage you while you're sieged and still come out of the battle in decent shape, just meaning that when you get caught out of position with siege tanks you'll just straight up lose the game right there playing with bio can be difficult when they get all their tech/upgrades out, but basically it still comes down to how you engage and use your emps, and you can try to hold out into the super lategame where you have mass orbitals and get rid of some worker supply | ||
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LicH.
China235 Posts
On June 08 2011 12:58 Enwrit wrote: This brings up something I was wondering in TvP. If you're using bio, what if the Toss just forces a direct fight, like with a big push? You have to go into late game with some sort of advantage otherwise you will get rolled by the deathball in a straight up fight. Thus, try to build up advantages with harass etc, so that when the push comes, you have a slight advantage. From there, the direct fight is completely winnable. With bio lategame it is imperative that you a. maintain a good concave vs. oncoming push b. position your vikings creatively / micro them to try to snipe colossi c. hit 2-3 solid emps d. adjust your marine count according to his tech Lategame TvP is all about building up an advantage and engaging correctly. | ||
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MaFFGeeK
United States47 Posts
I feel that infestors/banelings are just way too effective for bio to be useful in TvZ without tank support. My problem with tank play though is if you get caught out of position, it's basically GG. (So maybe I should experiment with bio more..) I know the standard TvP play in the late game is MMMVG, but I feel like mass air is more effective. If you can dodge storms well, banshees just rip through everything in the protoss army (except for carrier/phoenix/voids of course), and when this is combined with PDD and vikings, it becomes seemingly unstoppable (in my experience). I feel that eventually the metagame in TvP will shift away from the bio army late game. (My opinion may be very biased though as I am a huge fan of Synystyr's anti-colossus build. I do have a 90% win rate against toss though on ladder against top diamond/mid masters players.) | ||
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cekkmt
United States352 Posts
The upgrades scale with tanks, and they clean up marines easily. Hellions are also relatively durable to tank fire. They can even clean up maruaders in mass( watch the iechoic day9 daily). In TvP zealots are roasted by blue flame hellions and also work very well against zerglings and banelings in TvZ. An issue is that terran anti air consists of Battlecrusers, which are expensive and do not have decent dps; vikings, only anti air and die easily on the ground; thors, which fail against capitol ships and magic boxed mutas; and Marines, which are perhaps the most cost efficient unit in the game. The reason pure mech worked in brood war was because all the niches were filled. Vulutres served for a hold position type of unit with spider mines as well as a harassing unit for only 75 minerals, tanks did soooooooooo much damage to ground, and goliaths did very well against most air units. so with proper positioning you could win games with pure mech. Its possible in SC2 to go pure mech, but if you lose your entire army you will generally lose, whereas bio/mech works far more efficiently because the harass potential of bio syncs with the immobility of mech. The issue of pure Bio late game is that bio is not cost efficient in large numbers, so you need to constantly harass, but ""the counter" to crazy harassment is to just go kill him" (Day9). whereas running archons into tank lines is usually not the best strategy. For the record I am only in gold league so if I have gaping holes in my argument feel free to correct me | ||
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
The benefits of going pure MMM in TvP are pretty clear, allows you a strong early and mid game but I'll specifically address late game MMM. I assume you and your opponent have a similar food count and that upgrades are equal. There are a couple key things to remember that will help you win the game: Always flank. You remember back in Brood Wars when people would use more than one hotkey for their army? Yeah do that. You can not allow the Protoss to forcefield you out and allow the DPS off colossi to take effect. Even with 5-6 colossi, if you flank properly, their DPS does not stack up enough and you will be able to pick them all off before they can really hurt you. Drop, or better yet, threaten a drop. This will force part of the Protoss army to stay at home so they can not commit all their units to an attack. If at anytime Protoss decide to ball up all their units and leave their base unattended, you MUST drop them. One dropship of 4 marauders (espeically with upgrades) are extremely cost effective and can snipe important buildings, allowing almost an auto win. Use a heavier Maruader army when going against Colossi and gateway mix. Mararuders tank better and when you guys trade most of your army, the winner is usually determined by whether or not the Protoss army DPS is > than your Medivac healing power and kiting. Kill the obs. If the Protoss has eyes on your army, you will not win, it's that simple. You have to keep repositioning pulling the protoss out of position if you are to engage and if he sees it no good toss is going to walk into a trap. Ghosts: So this is obvious, after you kill the ob, you can go in and snipe or EMP his sentries/temps. | ||
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TheQforce
United Kingdom48 Posts
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
I usually play only macro games where I try to get my 3rd as soon as I'm comfortable with it, harassing P with drops really becomes much more effective when he has to defend 3 bases aswell, so he either tries to push on 2 bases upon seeing my 3rd, or he takes his own third and leaves himself open to drops. A well placed planetary or a bunch of bunkers make holding such a 2base push less scary. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
TvP bio is viable all game, depending on your agression you can be very successful in delaying or even nullifying colossus play with drops and tell timed nexus snipes. The new ghost/marauder play late game help keep templar tech from getting out of hand and keeps your gas low throughout the late game. As long as you don't need vikings, just keep spamming medivacs and picking your engagements wherever the death ball is not, eventually his army will be split up enough to pick off individual groups of units. I think the one key factor in any bio play more than anything else is upgrades. If you engage higher tech with pure bio, and have weaker upgrades chances are you will not come out ahead. | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On June 08 2011 12:58 Enwrit wrote: This brings up something I was wondering in TvP. If you're using bio, what if the Toss just forces a direct fight, like with a big push? Marauders scale extremely well against P with upgrades so as long as you got some advantage midgame it is completely viable. You just need good positioning against Colossus/Sentry and take care of Templars with EMP. If he is pushing you with 2-3 Colos off 2 base while your drops are going on just mass repair your bunkers, leave your third CC in-base and hold out, your drops should crush him and as long as your sim city is tight he should lose most of his army if he forces an entry. Bio reinforcements should clear up what he has left and meanwhile your drops should've leveled his critical tech and eco. In theory at least hehe | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On June 08 2011 12:20 .Ulcer. wrote: You simply cannot expect to beat high tier units with bio. Beating a zerg almost becomes impossible once he gets ultras you need to switch to thors for the strike cannon, This is literally incorrect. If he has ultras, continue to use marauders and make sure you get your +3 attack as soon as possible against his high ultralisk armor. Do not strike cannon Ultralisks. Against zerg, short of weird rushes, and fast thor drop, thors should primarily be used in small numbers to prevent mutalisks from clumping up and attacking your tanks. Again, do not use strike cannon against ultralisks. On June 08 2011 12:20 .Ulcer. wrote: and once a protoss can afford more robo's then there colossus count will grow too fast and you will have a lot of problems engaging it favorably. You need to keep up your tech do it gradually, as you keep using bio you need to integrate a few factory's or starport's in so you can shift your army composition into a much stronger force that can take on a death ball. Without all your eggs in your bio basket. Also incorrect, though there is truth to the statement that colossi are hard to engage and that you need to tech. Although you do need to tech up, it is for support units, not a tech switch, bio remains viable against protoss all game, and with higher tier supporting units, is the gold standard of TvP. As he gains templars and archons, ghosts are important, and as he gains colossi, vikings are important. These units, however, are not the mainstay of your army; they are responses to protoss tech and support your marauders. Use drops and medivacs to assert map control and prevent him from moving out to attack you with his entire force (or to force him to burn money on statics). | ||
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Frequencyy
United States344 Posts
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MrInocence
United States172 Posts
Marines simply die too quickly and are so small that they take dps en mass from collosi. There is a problem with excess gas with this build, and EXCESS GAS is always great to work with. With the core composition set, you can now use the enhancers, spellcasters, and support units. These include GHOSTS, which take off shields and will be easy to produce because of your number of tech lab rax, a RAVEN or two for PDD, a few SEIGETANKS from the one factory you made to get port tech, and BANCHEESE (haha) for gas dump and dps. Crazy phoenix play will merely prompt you to add another reactor or two in your addon mixup. Voids can be dealt with by vikings and 1reactorrax marines. Both of these take away from the collosi count, allowing your vikings to target them as priority targets. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:14 MrInocence wrote: The trick in TvP is to go with a core army composition of MARAUDER VIKING MEDIVAC and at most one reactored rax producing MARINES, switching between vikings and medivacs given the circumstances. Marines simply die too quickly and are so small that they take dps en mass from collosi. There is a problem with excess gas with this build, and EXCESS GAS is always great to work with. With the core composition set, you can now use the enhancers, spellcasters, and support units. These include GHOSTS, which take off shields and will be easy to produce because of your number of tech lab rax, a RAVEN or two for PDD, a few SEIGETANKS from the one factory you made to get port tech, and BANCHEESE (haha) for gas dump and dps. Crazy phoenix play will merely prompt you to add another reactor or two in your addon mixup. Voids can be dealt with by vikings and 1reactorrax marines. Both of these take away from the collosi count, allowing your vikings to target them as priority targets. This.... I dunno about this. They could just tech switch to immortal zealot and decimate your army. Also, terran isn't dictated by gas, but rather minerals. Also, a few siege tanks aren't enough. Since you are wasting money on unupgraded units, and you have such a low amount of them that they would just get sniped quickly. I dunno, this just doesn't sound like a particularly good idea. | ||
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edc
United States666 Posts
If having only MM/MMM in the late game was a standard strategy, this game would be broken. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Hellions could abandon the main battle and run around to the enemy probes once the zealots die? | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:22 Keilah wrote: just wanna say WRT hellions/mech : it's true what one poster said, that hellions tend to run up ahead and all die horribly to colossus fire. So why not keep your hellions back a bit, so they can roast the zealots that charge in to kill the first tank, then run back behind the second tank, etc etc? Use them as DPS support vs zealots, not as meatshields. Of course this means creating long drawn-out siege lines, not big clumps of tanks. Hellions could abandon the main battle and run around to the enemy probes once the zealots die? I used mech for a month straight vs toss at master league and I have to say that I dont know how people are saying that, with decent control your hellions never go up to far. you can always keep them right up there with the tanks. This does not solve the problem with mech though. The problem is that tanks are to slow, and you do not have spider mines to control and buy time for a position once you leave it. Almost all of my mech games ended in me losing to immobilty issues. Rather than straight up ball vs ball. | ||
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DarrotTheCarrot
Singapore44 Posts
MMM will however, be very strong if you use supports units such as ghost to destroy the protoss army shield, viking to snipe colloseus and ravens to ppd absorbing fire from stalkers and colloseus. With the rise in usage of zealot/archon, I would say that helions might finally come to use as they burn zealots. I feel that the composition of MMM should have more marauders than marines unless the protoss has some air units. The main advantage of MMM is the mobility, try to abuse the mobility of the protoss army and drop all over the place such as MVP vs Creator Game3. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
The big problem about this composition is that it is so mineral heavy and you cant really afford to tech to anything else. This leaves you in a situation where you have to keep taking more bases just to get more minerals while you have no use for the gas while the protoss has usage for both. On a map like metalopolis you have approximately one hour to kill your protoss opponent because this is the time your half of the map will be mined out of minerals while you won't have even started mining gas from your fifth and sixth base. On bigger maps you can take more expansions but eventually you will run into the same problem after a very long game or in situations where protoss keeps trading expansions with you. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that the ghost cost change in the last patch is really problematic in the late game for terran. Right now I am thinking about getting a third starport with a techlab for banshees and ravens and the energy upgrade for the medivacs. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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