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On June 09 2011 14:24 Baum wrote:
With good control a MMMVG army can take on a late game protoss army head on. It's crucial to get off some good emps not only on templars but especially at the Zealots otherwise you will have to kite them too long while the stalkers can pick off all you air units uncontested which will result in you getting run over by his collosus because of the lack of vikings or by his warp ins because of the lack of medivacs.
The big problem about this composition is that it is so mineral heavy and you cant really afford to tech to anything else. This leaves you in a situation where you have to keep taking more bases just to get more minerals while you have no use for the gas while the protoss has usage for both. On a map like metalopolis you have approximately one hour to kill your protoss opponent because this is the time your half of the map will be mined out of minerals while you won't have even started mining gas from your fifth and sixth base. On bigger maps you can take more expansions but eventually you will run into the same problem after a very long game or in situations where protoss keeps trading expansions with you.
The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that the ghost cost change in the last patch is really problematic in the late game for terran. Right now I am thinking about getting a third starport with a techlab for banshees and ravens and the energy upgrade for the medivacs.
I agree with you, of the three races Terran has the least benefit from excess gas (which is a veritable certainty in the late game in most cases) because most of our units are so mineral heavy, and the gas-intensive units that we do have also carry a large mineral cost so it's difficult to build them when gas is high and minerals are low anyways.
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On June 09 2011 08:34 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:14 MrInocence wrote:
The trick in TvP is to go with a core army composition of MARAUDER VIKING MEDIVAC and at most one reactored rax producing MARINES, switching between vikings and medivacs given the circumstances.
Marines simply die too quickly and are so small that they take dps en mass from collosi.
There is a problem with excess gas with this build, and EXCESS GAS is always great to work with. With the core composition set, you can now use the enhancers, spellcasters, and support units. These include GHOSTS, which take off shields and will be easy to produce because of your number of tech lab rax, a RAVEN or two for PDD, a few SEIGETANKS from the one factory you made to get port tech, and BANCHEESE (haha) for gas dump and dps.
Crazy phoenix play will merely prompt you to add another reactor or two in your addon mixup. Voids can be dealt with by vikings and 1reactorrax marines. Both of these take away from the collosi count, allowing your vikings to target them as priority targets. This.... I dunno about this. They could just tech switch to immortal zealot and decimate your army. Also, terran isn't dictated by gas, but rather minerals. Also, a few siege tanks aren't enough. Since you are wasting money on unupgraded units, and you have such a low amount of them that they would just get sniped quickly. I dunno, this just doesn't sound like a particularly good idea.
You need Blink Stalkers and/or Templars to deal effectively with drops. Your vikings can also fly around and land on mineral lines without stalkers, forcing the Protoss to fight on multiple fronts. Zealot/Immortal/Templar IMO is a strong unit comp but it isn't always necessarily better, unless you can barrel right through a Terran with it.
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On June 09 2011 22:34 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 14:24 Baum wrote:
With good control a MMMVG army can take on a late game protoss army head on. It's crucial to get off some good emps not only on templars but especially at the Zealots otherwise you will have to kite them too long while the stalkers can pick off all you air units uncontested which will result in you getting run over by his collosus because of the lack of vikings or by his warp ins because of the lack of medivacs.
The big problem about this composition is that it is so mineral heavy and you cant really afford to tech to anything else. This leaves you in a situation where you have to keep taking more bases just to get more minerals while you have no use for the gas while the protoss has usage for both. On a map like metalopolis you have approximately one hour to kill your protoss opponent because this is the time your half of the map will be mined out of minerals while you won't have even started mining gas from your fifth and sixth base. On bigger maps you can take more expansions but eventually you will run into the same problem after a very long game or in situations where protoss keeps trading expansions with you.
The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that the ghost cost change in the last patch is really problematic in the late game for terran. Right now I am thinking about getting a third starport with a techlab for banshees and ravens and the energy upgrade for the medivacs. I agree with you, of the three races Terran has the least benefit from excess gas (which is a veritable certainty in the late game in most cases) because most of our units are so mineral heavy, and the gas-intensive units that we do have also carry a large mineral cost so it's difficult to build them when gas is high and minerals are low anyways.
Our race also has the ability to drop mules from 4+ OC's late game, something other races don't have.
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On June 08 2011 13:42 MaFFGeeK wrote:
I'm rank 1 diamond, so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that bio isn't the best way to play either TvP or TvZ in the late late game.
I feel that infestors/banelings are just way too effective for bio to be useful in TvZ without tank support. My problem with tank play though is if you get caught out of position, it's basically GG. (So maybe I should experiment with bio more..)
I know the standard TvP play in the late game is MMMVG, but I feel like mass air is more effective. If you can dodge storms well, banshees just rip through everything in the protoss army (except for carrier/phoenix/voids of course), and when this is combined with PDD and vikings, it becomes seemingly unstoppable (in my experience). I feel that eventually the metagame in TvP will shift away from the bio army late game. (My opinion may be very biased though as I am a huge fan of Synystyr's anti-colossus build. I do have a 90% win rate against toss though on ladder against top diamond/mid masters players.)
I'm really waiting to see more heavy air play in Terran play in general. I think out of the three races terran has the best mix of air units to make it work, but for now Marauders just do so much dmg to everything in the toss army that I believe it still is the dominant comp, rauder, medivac, ghost, is I think still the strongest army you can get against toss, as long as marauders are as effective as they are against stalkers and collosi I don't see this changing.
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TvP
This "tier 1 vs deathball" statement gets thrown off way too much. MMM is more than fine vs P in lategame. You have the same gas allocation (little in marine/marauders vs stalker/zealots sum sentries), then the support stuff (collossus vs medi/vikings) and templars/ghosts.
As such, since Khaydarin was removed, a 200-200 fight comes down to control, positioning, execution, micro, etc (obviously upgrades)
I'm not saying you shouldn't drop/play skirmishes etc - but you deffo shouldn't play with the mindset that if you're 200-200 in TvP you're automatically behind.
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On June 10 2011 01:18 Shado. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 22:34 STS17 wrote:On June 09 2011 14:24 Baum wrote:
With good control a MMMVG army can take on a late game protoss army head on. It's crucial to get off some good emps not only on templars but especially at the Zealots otherwise you will have to kite them too long while the stalkers can pick off all you air units uncontested which will result in you getting run over by his collosus because of the lack of vikings or by his warp ins because of the lack of medivacs.
The big problem about this composition is that it is so mineral heavy and you cant really afford to tech to anything else. This leaves you in a situation where you have to keep taking more bases just to get more minerals while you have no use for the gas while the protoss has usage for both. On a map like metalopolis you have approximately one hour to kill your protoss opponent because this is the time your half of the map will be mined out of minerals while you won't have even started mining gas from your fifth and sixth base. On bigger maps you can take more expansions but eventually you will run into the same problem after a very long game or in situations where protoss keeps trading expansions with you.
The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that the ghost cost change in the last patch is really problematic in the late game for terran. Right now I am thinking about getting a third starport with a techlab for banshees and ravens and the energy upgrade for the medivacs. I agree with you, of the three races Terran has the least benefit from excess gas (which is a veritable certainty in the late game in most cases) because most of our units are so mineral heavy, and the gas-intensive units that we do have also carry a large mineral cost so it's difficult to build them when gas is high and minerals are low anyways. Our race also has the ability to drop mules from 4+ OC's late game, something other races don't have.
That's all well and good but it doesn't mean our bases are any more secure then theirs. Hell, in TvZ you are generally so immobile that your expansions past your natural have to be PFs in order to defend them (so no MULES there) and in TvP unless you have some sort of huge lead most of your expansions are also PFs, I don't know about you but I don't exactly have the funds to just toss down extra OCs at 550 minerals a piece in the mid to late game hoping they last for the 4+ minutes it takes for them to recoup their cost. Not to mention that almost every MULE dies with some minerals in hand so each MULE called down actually depreciates the maximum amount of minerals you can harvest so once the game goes long enough to start mining out the map, (assuming you have mined out equal bases, generally indicative of a close game) you have actually mined less then your opponent has.
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EPT
