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1200+ Masters Terran here and I was wondering what the TL community thinks of the effectiveness of the Bio Ball late game in TvZ/P.
In small groups I think that MMM is much more effective than other comparable units such as stalkers and zealots or roaches and lings but when the Bio ball begins to get near 200/200 the low range and low health make the ball worse and worse. And if I allow Protoss or Zerg player to get to 200/200 with his higher tier units it just get too powerful to handle unless I drop and keep pressure on mid game to keep whittling down the important units. Especially the famed Protoss Death Ball or the Zerg Death Ball of infestor BL.
So is it smart to keep trading armies mid game to keep the tech low and force the other player to engage you with smaller groups with drops? Or is it better to switch off from bio as the game goes on to more mech based and make move away from bio.
(Not sure if this belonged in General or Strategy sorry if it's in the wrong place  .)
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I'm not convinced that the current bio-ball strategy is really the right way to go in TvP, but as it is the dominant strategy with little known alternatives:
You need to constantly trade some of your bio units for the protoss colossi. If there are ever more than 5-6 colossi on the field, your bio units will just melt. It's like Zerg and Siege Tanks, if the opponent gets too many, you can't break it without higher tech.
As Day[9] says especially about marines (but it's also quite true about marauders), they are most effective in small numbers, so you have to keep his numbers low, too, or force him to split his units into smaller numbers so your units can use their strength. The best way for that would be drops or splitting some of your units away to destroy expansions.
A great example are the games of EmpireKas vs HasuObs from TSL3 - especially the Tal'Darim Altar Game - where Kas constantly has 1-2 small groups moving around the map while he avoids fighting the Protoss Army directly.
In TvZ it really depends, usually it's up to the Zerg to trade units to keep your numbers low because a 200/200 Terran Army with Tanks is very hard to beat without broodlords.
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Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
I suggest watching some Thorzain, if you want to go bio all game, then you must, MUST, get upgrades, double e-bay is best imo. TvP lategame is all about positioning/micro. You really have to engage the army without getting force fielded then kite back with Bio while your vikings kill the Collosi, Vikings aren't that important to Terran as long as you kill the Collosi, while Collosi is pretty much the core unit in the Protoss lategame army. And you want to get quite a few ghosts for those HTs. I don't think transitioning into Mech lategame is really a good idea, IMMvp did it in GSL but it didn't work (there were mistakes though), it just means your sacrificing upgrades for your bio, while mech isn't exactly that strong in the first place.
I'm not bashing mech, I think there a some semi mech plays that are quite powerful, but they seem more timing attack based than an actual solid lategame build.
And yes doing drops is never a bad idea against Protoss. With good multitasking, doing drops before Blink is pretty much risk free.
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In TvZ going pure bio (with medivacs) leaves you too vulnerable to banelings, and counter-attacks as well. You can still do plenty of drops (see Losira vs MMA) with tanks in your composition.
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I havn't experienced much true MMM in TvZ, probably because of the way tech works differently for protoss then zerg. Protoss have to build it up over a long period of time, because of standard RTS production facilities. Zerg build up the tech all game, and then burst out with 20 brood lords when they can. Because of this, I don't really see how near constaint harass will keep a zerg tech unit count low, so this is why marine tank is the favored.
I'm a zerg not a protoss, but from what I've spectated in major tournaments the protoss spend all game getting this anti-bio force, so I don't see the logic of sticking with bio on the terran end. Even though so much the protoss has is a 'counter' to siege tanks, siege tanks are pretty freaking good units and restrict territory. Regardless of how many immortals and chargelots you have, running head first into a siege line is a bad idea.
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On June 07 2011 16:35 Shooks wrote:
Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
lolwut?
hellions are so freaking strong against zealots even chargelots and when you mech you're are going to have a lot of them.
i mech against toss all the time (top diamond though i suppose) and it works great.
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On June 07 2011 17:44 FoFo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 16:35 Shooks wrote:
Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
lolwut? hellions are so freaking strong against zealots even chargelots and when you mech you're are going to have a lot of them. i mech against toss all the time ( top diamond though i suppose) and it works great.
Well..Yeah, I honestly didn't beat mech until I was masters and would always lose to it. then I just knew how to deal with it, and I haven't lost to it for a very long time
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I wouldn't ever go pure bio against Zerg as Terran. Especially with recent infestor buff.
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On June 07 2011 20:09 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 17:44 FoFo wrote:On June 07 2011 16:35 Shooks wrote:
Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
lolwut? hellions are so freaking strong against zealots even chargelots and when you mech you're are going to have a lot of them. i mech against toss all the time ( top diamond though i suppose) and it works great. Well..Yeah, I honestly didn't beat mech until I was masters and would always lose to it. then I just knew how to deal with it, and I haven't lost to it for a very long time
fair enough but what makes it easy for you to beat? the only thing i have trouble with are ranged collosi but in that case it's about positioning and not units because i've smashed maxed protoss armies with minimum losses. i've also not run into any openings that are extremely hard to deal with, you pump rines at the start so no threat of voids and scouting in the mid game will leave you enough time to pump vikings (i get them almost by default cause every toss goes collosus anyway). i've lost to blink stalkers but i felt i could have hold that off with better micro.
i think what most people don't realize is just how good helions are
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On June 07 2011 21:14 FoFo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 20:09 Shooks wrote:On June 07 2011 17:44 FoFo wrote:On June 07 2011 16:35 Shooks wrote:
Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
lolwut? hellions are so freaking strong against zealots even chargelots and when you mech you're are going to have a lot of them. i mech against toss all the time ( top diamond though i suppose) and it works great. Well..Yeah, I honestly didn't beat mech until I was masters and would always lose to it. then I just knew how to deal with it, and I haven't lost to it for a very long time fair enough but what makes it easy for you to beat? the only thing i have trouble with are ranged collosi but in that case it's about positioning and not units because i've smashed maxed protoss armies with minimum losses. i've also not run into any openings that are extremely hard to deal with, you pump rines at the start so no threat of voids and scouting in the mid game will leave you enough time to pump vikings (i get them almost by default cause every toss goes collosus anyway). i've lost to blink stalkers but i felt i could have hold that off with better micro. i think what most people don't realize is just how good helions are
This exactly. Most People think that the weakness of Mech is Lots/Stalkers.excetera. THe real weakness is Ranged Collosi which melt your Hellions. No Hellions means that Protoss have free range on your tanks. And although in Mech you should have ravens and ghosts, and maybe a few banshees, you really simply can't hold for long once your hellions die. This and the Collosi Stalker backstab. The trick to mech is keeping his collosi count down with timing attacks. That way you don't need to sink tons of resources and supply in Vikings.
Bio TvP is still effective though, I just never win whn i go Bio TvP. As for Bio TvZ i personally think its very strong late game, if you have good micro. And add some blue hellions. I personally when i see infestors i stop tank production and go all out SK Marine Maruader Medic. The medic cloud prevents your Bio from dieing. And Micro prevents them from dieing to banlings. Ultras you can kite, and BL you simply drop everywhere since their so slow
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first post on tl I think. be nice.
I'm a high diamond terran and I think going pure bio mid to late game vs protoss and zerg is close to suicide.
both races have become very good at dealing with the bio ball. for protoss the colossus and ht are both devastating (and easy to use). for zerg, mass infestor is so easy to fungal armies into oblivion. banelings are good too but are easily hard countered by siege tanks.
I think ghosts are a good counter to these spellcasters but can be really difficult to use since in order to emp before you get stormed or fungaled you have to have the ghosts up front which is a big problem vs thermal lance.
oh and ff and chargelots destroys bioball but I imagine that could be hard to use.
I think bio mixed with mech is the way to go. a few thors and tanks go a long way. thors eat stalkers. helions eat zealots.
if someone has a different opinion then me I want to hear it. TvP is a really hard match up for me right now. ge tting tech to deal with colossus early enough while keeping enough bio to not get overrun by gateway units has been really hard for me to balance
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On June 07 2011 21:14 FoFo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 20:09 Shooks wrote:On June 07 2011 17:44 FoFo wrote:On June 07 2011 16:35 Shooks wrote:
Well I can't speak for Zerg since I'm a Protoss player, but I rarely ever see Terrans go for bio in tvz, more Marine/tank.
As for Protoss it definitely can, and it's the best lategame unit comp by far IMO, I think Mech is pretty terrible, since once Protoss get chargelots, they don't really do anything.
lolwut? hellions are so freaking strong against zealots even chargelots and when you mech you're are going to have a lot of them. i mech against toss all the time ( top diamond though i suppose) and it works great. Well..Yeah, I honestly didn't beat mech until I was masters and would always lose to it. then I just knew how to deal with it, and I haven't lost to it for a very long time fair enough but what makes it easy for you to beat? the only thing i have trouble with are ranged collosi but in that case it's about positioning and not units because i've smashed maxed protoss armies with minimum losses. i've also not run into any openings that are extremely hard to deal with, you pump rines at the start so no threat of voids and scouting in the mid game will leave you enough time to pump vikings (i get them almost by default cause every toss goes collosus anyway). i've lost to blink stalkers but i felt i could have hold that off with better micro. i think what most people don't realize is just how good helions are
Yeah, It certainly does become a micro battle, but I just think it's MUCH easier for Protoss to micro, pretty much I will just have my collosi target the Hellions since they always run a bit forward from the army, then the tank are easy picking for my chargelots. And Terran get caught out of position once and it's pretty much game, basically theirs so many ways Terran can just straight up die to a Protoss when going mech, you really have to leap frog perfectly and spread your units. It's why you barely see any high level Terrans going mech, Jinro self admitted mech is terrible in far positions.
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MMM functions well in small groups for a few reasons:
First: Small groups mean your opponent is less likely to be able to get a surround, so you can micro more effectively and abuse marauder slow that much more.
Second: Medivacs heal at a fixed rate, regardless of what the incoming damage rate is. Smaller engagements mean less incomming damage meaning the heals you get from medivacs is "stronger" so your units die less often. In larger engagements, your opponent simply one shots your units so there is no time for the medivac to heal properly.
Third: MMM is extremely mobile. With the ability to move around the map quickly, and avoid most terrain by lifting and dropping your units, MMM lets you abuse small openings in your opponents defenses, by getting in, doing damage, and getting out quickly. Smaller forces are naturally better suited to hit and run tactics such as this.
If the game goes into the late stages, it is much better to avoid a straight up confrontation with your opponent, as many people believe the Terran has the "weakest" late game army (your opinion may vary). Keeping your units all over the map lets you abuse the three points above, while forcing your opponent's "deathball" (which by definition, is a composition which in which the whole is greater then the sum of its parts, ergo, much stronger when clumped together then spread out) to split up in order to defend from all of the attacks on his many bases. If he refuses to split his forces then the units which he doesn't engage have that much longer to deal their damage and get out safely.
With these things in mind, trading with your opponent (evenly) during the midgame is basically required for MMM play, as the playstyle demands aggressiveness from the player and not passivity. You don't have to trade armies per se, but you do need to cause damage in some form or another. If you don't then experience tells me that your opponent will simply out macro you, as Terran has the longest "reinforcement cycle" of the three races, meaning you want rebuild periods to be constant (i.e. preventing either army from getting maxxed, so reinforcements are steady and not in huge waves "300 food push" style).
It is important to keep in mind that you don't need a huge number of medivacs for an aggressive style, in fact, I would suggest delaying the reactor on the starport in favor of a techlab to get medivac energy asap (then switch the techlab with a reactor'd rax or just make another reactor with your factory). The more energy your medivacs have, the longer you can keep aggression up (which pins your opponent back, and provides valuable scouting information). Often times lategame medivacs have almost no energy, so getting the upgrade early helps immensely. I know a lot of high up players don't do this yet but I will put money down that this is where the future of MMM builds leans towards as players get better at multitasking.
Note: This is from the view of a platinum level player, but I do believe it to be a correct analysis
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usually against toss late game, i go almost purely marader/ghost/medivac.. if colosi ill try to get some vikings in there.
and well tvz, i tried mmm a few times, never seemed to get it to work, if banelings dont run you over, fungal growth will .when i tried to add some ghost to fight off infestors what usually happens is that, ghosts lag behind stimed marines/marauders ( slow movespeed), so the very expensive ghosts end up getting picked off first..... Thats why ghosts/mmm in my honest opinion suck vs zerg, you just cant trade armies equally with zerg imo, you have to get value out of your units and tanks can do that.
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Basically, if you're going for a bioball late game, versus both zerg and protoss, you need to incorporate more higher tech support units like ghosts, banshees, or higher medivac count.
Also, if you sac scvs in exchange for orbitals, you can easily have a more powerful army of bio purely because you just have a bigger army..
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i think the possibly the way to keep zerg tech units down is to snipe the tech building.
so possibly dropping 2 medivacs of stimmed marauders to take out an infestation pit so they cannot produce infestors until it's remade and you have created a timing window.
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MMM is a no go vs Z
Unfortunetly its still standard vs P. Basically vs P the real strength of bio is mid game pressure, which gets you a major advantage when stim/drops hit. If Protoss defends mid game push then he has done major damage to you because now rather than attacking you, he will take more expansions and get stronger.
Dont get me wrong its not liek you shoudl just GG after your 9-11 min push fails you can win late game, but it is almost always an uphill fight if you do dont do any damage by mid game.
I hate playing TvP this way as Id rather play with tanks and fight a more positional/harass battle that is good for the entire game. But mech just does not cut it yet vs P. We either need some player(s) (Dont say Goody, still does not have significant and consistent results vs P and is a one off. No one else plays like him). Or some balance tweaks.
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MMM is really effective i find, but it will taper off in the late game. You simply cannot expect to beat high tier units with bio. Beating a zerg almost becomes impossible once he gets ultras you need to switch to thors for the strike cannon, and once a protoss can afford more robo's then there colossus count will grow too fast and you will have a lot of problems engaging it favorably.
You need to keep up your tech do it gradually, as you keep using bio you need to integrate a few factory's or starport's in so you can shift your army composition into a much stronger force that can take on a death ball. Without all your eggs in your bio basket.
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It can work against Z, but it relies on constant nonstop pressure, while at the same time securing more expansions. The point is that any one of your pushes can end the game if they are insufficiently prepared, and most Zergs want to drone up after fending off an attack, which is when your next attack should hit. However, you should also tech up to more drop play, and really just to fight multiple small battles everywhere after a certain point.
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bio in tvz is a peculiar thing. It is strong early game if you do a timing attack (i.e. reaper expo into 4 rax stim/shields push) wanes in the midgame as Z pumps banes in response, then becomes more effective again late late game once ultras etc come out.
I used to play a pure marine tvz to great effect, but high economy baneling aggression, creep spread in conjunction with bane pumps, and overlords spread make playing a bio w/ drop midgame extrememly difficult in tvz.
In TvP however, you want to stay on bio throughout the game. Unless you are playing a specific mech or timing attack build, head towards fully upgraded bio with ghost / viking support.
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EPT
