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On August 03 2011 12:49 Deezl wrote:
If youre going charge, you need a forge with 1 cannon in each min line to detect and you should drop a robo ASAP after researching charge.
My big question of the night is how do you hold the marine/tank/banshee all-ins that are wrecking the GSL right now with a FE? Do you FE 1gate collosus? Because that seems bad.
Unfortunately I haven't seen much of this on the ladder recently. You get the expansion more than quickly enough for it to pay for itself and then some by the time the push hits, so that's great 
Whenever I've seen this, I cut units after the first 5 stalkers for a long time. You'd make this cut if he just has marines at the top of his ramp and maybe even a bunker. 6 minutes is quite a long time to only have naked marines at the ramp if he is doing any sort of bio opening. Be greedy as hell for the time being, getting 2 gases running with decent saturation at both bases. Between 12-16 at each base and about 30 total on minerals will do just fine. You want to have more income for the sake of having expanded, but not to make so many probes that the diminishing returns leave you with mineral and food sink.
I've had success sticking to 4-5 gateways and a robo getting immortals. I strongly recommend against colossus.. Sure they do great against the marines but they don't have stim. Zealots with guardian shield will do just fine against marines with no stim or combat shield.
You only want 2 stalkers for every banshee and enough sentries to ensure you can keep guardian shield up and perhaps a few forcefields. 3-4 Should do the trick. The rest of your WG cool downs you just dump into zealots.
Engaging is the toughest part if the terran sets himself up correctly. Try to tank the inital 3 tank shots with your immortals but try not to let them soak in marine fire for too long. Get your immortals to the side and start shift clicking tanks while your zealot/sentry rip through the marines. Keep stalkers on the banshees, obviously
This build should do just as well against the push as any other. Please post replays if you're having troubles with it.
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i'm wondering if you've tried this against a 3rax allin reactor + 2 techlab? i'm finding I just don't have enough stuff to hold it at about ~45-50 food?
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After reading the OP and 16-, I'm confused as to what build you guys are actually talking about haha. The 20 FE from the OP? the 30 FE stalker into a bunch of sentries? or the one in Cecil's VOD where he expands at 24 after chronoing WG and stalker to scare away the scv scout?
AFAIK the 20 FE is weak (not viable?) vs. 12/16 r/t push.. but the 30 FE/cecil version is safe? The feedback is so good I've decided to favor this over 3 gate expo, but I'm not sure what build you're actually talking about lol
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How to play vs mass marauder push around 5:50 minutes? only make sentries ? I was making stalker in panic, because he had shells so zealots would do much?
replay: http://drop.sc/23340
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On August 03 2011 08:20 mTw|NarutO wrote:
This build is solid all around. I'm not great against Protoss, but as long as you don't overcommit with your stalkers there's basically no option for Terran to be ahead in game. You can at best be even. The best thing as Terran is probably 1-1-1 with bunker in front and a banshee to force the Protoss to use his stalkers in defence rather than offence.
You can transition into 3 barracks bio play. You force a robotics and you earn time.
I disagree to some extent. Not that this wouldn't be useful, but after watching HuK's stream for long, long hours I noticed that the 2 ghost timing attack is even more dangerous.
This is why I've seen HuK switch his build order in recent history and get sentries early on. Why sentries vs ghosts you ask since this seems counter-intuitive? Because it's extremely imortant to have them build up energy so that you have at least one GS + a few fields, if you spread correctly, so that the EMPs can't overlap on individual sentries.
Mostly what his opponents did was staying in the base for a long time, simply not flying the CC down and not donating any marine. Once they started moving out, the MM force had already reached a size that couldn't be handled by zealot/stalker any more and absolutely needed some sentries.
I've seen the hard pressure versions only work in the last few weeks if the terran engages too early and it becomes a constant trade of zealots vs MM with very few units overall involved.
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Is the 1 gate Stalker/sentry/sentry expand MC's build? I seem to recall at Dreamhack, where MC called Huk's build before he took his second gas, that MC said that Huk was using his build?
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On August 03 2011 22:30 Micket wrote:
Is the 1 gate Stalker/sentry/sentry expand MC's build? I seem to recall at Dreamhack, where MC called Huk's build before he took his second gas, that MC said that Huk was using his build?
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be surprised if MC "created" the build...but since HuK is the one streaming and releasing replays regularly, I think this is why this has started to be known as "his" build.
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On August 03 2011 22:30 Micket wrote:
Is the 1 gate Stalker/sentry/sentry expand MC's build? I seem to recall at Dreamhack, where MC called Huk's build before he took his second gas, that MC said that Huk was using his build?
MC said that HuK was using "his build" against Tarson on Crossfire, where HuK opened with a second assimilator before core and teched straight towards dark templar. MC might have said that HuK was using his build more than once at Dreamhack, but I don't remember any other games.
Regardless, I haven't seen anyone other than HuK credited with this opening, and it's been around for a while.
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I think I've seen Genius use the stalker-sentry 2 gas 1gate fe in very early GSLs.. maybe even before the GSL from replays. It's definitely nothing groundbreaking.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 03 2011 18:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 12:49 Deezl wrote:
If youre going charge, you need a forge with 1 cannon in each min line to detect and you should drop a robo ASAP after researching charge.
My big question of the night is how do you hold the marine/tank/banshee all-ins that are wrecking the GSL right now with a FE? Do you FE 1gate collosus? Because that seems bad. I played this build vs. my friend last night and held that all-in using Gateway units coupled with Immortals. The trick is not to build too many Stalkers (3-5 are enough)! QTIP recently wrote a really good guide on defending that push: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379Basically, once you scout the 1:1:1 you need to throw down a Robo and make sure you get an Observer before Cloakshee timing. This is because Cloakshee/Banshee harrassment will usually happen before they commit to the attack. I think that the earliest this can realistically happen is 7:30 so try to have an Observer before then. I usually get a second Observer as well, which I use to scout their army positioning. I find this important because it's best to engage before they can siege their tank line. It's also makes it easier for you to engage from the flanks if you know exactly where they are - engaging from the flaks let your Zealots/Immortals get into the Tank line whilst avoiding the Marines/SCVs, because the Marines/SCVs are essentially meat-shields. If they've brought a Raven with their push, you need to be really careful with your Observers as they're gonna try and snipe them. You should keep the Observers away from any Marines anyway, just in case the Terran scans his army before engaginig. Once I have two Observers, I start chrono'ing out Immortals. The Immortal positioning is really important, because if you lose them before they deal damage to the Tanks then you're gonna be in a lot of trouble. Try and get the Immortals to attack from the sides so they aren't blocked from attacking the Tanks. Build a lot of Zealots out of your Gateways (use spare gas for Sentries - don't get more than 3-5 Stalkers for taking care of Banshee harrass) to take care of the Marines/SCVs. Sentries should either trap the Marines with Forcefields so that when you Zealots can attack them or Forcefield around the Tanks if SCVs are repairing them. The Tanks will splash the Marines if your Zealots trap them, which is nice! Stalkers should only be warped in once the battle appears to be won so that they can take care of any remaining Banshees.
Man you read his post but not mine? This is what I'd call a reproduction of efforts :/
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On August 03 2011 22:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 08:20 mTw|NarutO wrote:
This build is solid all around. I'm not great against Protoss, but as long as you don't overcommit with your stalkers there's basically no option for Terran to be ahead in game. You can at best be even. The best thing as Terran is probably 1-1-1 with bunker in front and a banshee to force the Protoss to use his stalkers in defence rather than offence.
You can transition into 3 barracks bio play. You force a robotics and you earn time. I disagree to some extent. Not that this wouldn't be useful, but after watching HuK's stream for long, long hours I noticed that the 2 ghost timing attack is even more dangerous. This is why I've seen HuK switch his build order in recent history and get sentries early on. Why sentries vs ghosts you ask since this seems counter-intuitive? Because it's extremely imortant to have them build up energy so that you have at least one GS + a few fields, if you spread correctly, so that the EMPs can't overlap on individual sentries. Mostly what his opponents did was staying in the base for a long time, simply not flying the CC down and not donating any marine. Once they started moving out, the MM force had already reached a size that couldn't be handled by zealot/stalker any more and absolutely needed some sentries. I've seen the hard pressure versions only work in the last few weeks if the terran engages too early and it becomes a constant trade of zealots vs MM with very few units overall involved.
If you see the Terran staying inbase for long it either means he's teching to medivacs and you should know the timing of that or he's doing the heavy-marine with few marauders and 2 ghost push. In both cases you can pressure with forcefielding the ramp (you already have a forward pylon). For the medivac timing you would have to retreat and for the ghost push you need to spread the sentries in front to not get hit on all of them by EMP.
I'd say if you are good in reading the game and your opponent you can adjust to everything the Terran does accordingly. Thats the strength of the build as it is the strength of the Terrans 1-1-1. Its so adjustable that you can nearly always either get an edge over your opponent or force him to do certain things.
=)
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sup doods I have another replay
1 rax fe into mech... a pretty greedy build so you can really abuse them with your early stalkers.
You can see I was kind of afraid he was hiding something and not actually expanding as I cut probes and units for an earlier robo. Turns out nothing was amiss.
http://replayfu.com/download/Q402bv
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On August 04 2011 00:50 mTw|NarutO wrote:
In both cases you can pressure with forcefielding the ramp (you already have a forward pylon). For the medivac timing you would have to retreat and for the ghost push you need to spread the sentries in front to not get hit on all of them by EMP.
Yup I agree. My response was more directed to the general flow of the build. I don't know if you've followed this thread diligently, but for a long time you were suppposed to get 2 stalkers followed by another 3 (warp) then warp in 3 zealots and pressure with the 3 zealot 5 stalker.
This is what I don't think works vs the ghost-timing as you just don't get any sentries early on.
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On August 04 2011 07:16 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 00:50 mTw|NarutO wrote:
In both cases you can pressure with forcefielding the ramp (you already have a forward pylon). For the medivac timing you would have to retreat and for the ghost push you need to spread the sentries in front to not get hit on all of them by EMP. Yup I agree. My response was more directed to the general flow of the build. I don't know if you've followed this thread diligently, but for a long time you were suppposed to get 2 stalkers followed by another 3 (warp) then warp in 3 zealots and pressure with the 3 zealot 5 stalker. This is what I don't think works vs the ghost-timing as you just don't get any sentries early on.
I've never actually opted for the Stalkers. I always just get a couple Stalker and a lot of Zealots. I just think Zealots are more useful/safe early game. I just enough Stalkers to compliment the Zealots, and a small number of Sentries. I feel it's also more flexible since it's less vespene drained so early on. What do you think of that? I've won a lot of games like this, and the early Forge in place of an early Robo is great for a cannon in each mineral line, which protects against fast Hellions and Banshee, and then the Zealots are useful near all game.
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On August 04 2011 07:19 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 07:16 sleepingdog wrote:On August 04 2011 00:50 mTw|NarutO wrote:
In both cases you can pressure with forcefielding the ramp (you already have a forward pylon). For the medivac timing you would have to retreat and for the ghost push you need to spread the sentries in front to not get hit on all of them by EMP. Yup I agree. My response was more directed to the general flow of the build. I don't know if you've followed this thread diligently, but for a long time you were suppposed to get 2 stalkers followed by another 3 (warp) then warp in 3 zealots and pressure with the 3 zealot 5 stalker. This is what I don't think works vs the ghost-timing as you just don't get any sentries early on. I've never actually opted for the Stalkers. I always just get a couple Stalker and a lot of Zealots. I just think Zealots are more useful/safe early game. I just enough Stalkers to compliment the Zealots, and a small number of Sentries. I feel it's also more flexible since it's less vespene drained so early on. What do you think of that? I've won a lot of games like this, and the early Forge in place of an early Robo is great for a cannon in each mineral line, which protects against fast Hellions and Banshee, and then the Zealots are useful near all game.
I go currently for a 2nd gas and get 2 sentries immediately after the first stalker. I just fail hard at defending vs the ghost-push if I haven't at least one guardian shield and a couple of force fields to trap/split marines. The lower buildtime of sentries helps to keep the build in order.
Overall it seems like there's a constant "flow" of deviations concerning the one gate FE. I believe we haven't seen the end of it.
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What time does a 2 rax hit? Tbh I didn't really get a solid build from this thread with all the variations haha. So I basically just made something up and got WG around 6:15-18 and got 4 stalkers/4 sentries at 6:30.
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On August 04 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:
What time does a 2 rax hit? Tbh I didn't really get a solid build from this thread with all the variations haha. So I basically just made something up and got WG around 6:15-18 and got 4 stalkers/4 sentries at 6:30.
That's because the build isn't a set of numbers to follow. Depending on what you see or feel you change it up. The power of this opening is in versatility.
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That's because the build isn't a set of numbers to follow. Depending on what you see or feel you change it up. The power of this opening is in versatility.
Yeah, that is what's so awesome about it, the second nexus gives you almost a zerg-like ability to chose between workers and units. (and ofc early robo for all-ins) But I was posting because I've had trouble with the 2 rax and was wondering about the timing, not to trash the guide
EDIT: It seems 2 rax timing is about 6:30
So what do you think of this opening?
9 pylon
11 chrono nexus
13 gate, chrono nexus
14/15 gas
@25 energy chrono nexus
16 pylon
18 cybercore (@100% gateway)
19 gas
20 pylon
@100% cybercore, stalker (chrono'd); WG (chrono'd)
cut probes at 22 (24/26)
@100% stalker, sentry
chase out scv
@400 minerals, nexus
chrono gateway, @100% sentry, sentry
@300 minerals, 2x gateway
(this is a little iffy)
You need a pylon so you're not blocked at 34, but I'm not sure when you can resume probes and still get he pylon in time (AKA resume probes @30, pylon @31, or pylon 30, resume probe asap). It doesn't matter much but the time I did it it was:
@100% sentry, sentry (chrono'd asap)
30 pylon, resume probes
@100% sentry, sentry
@ 25 energy, chrono sentry
WG and sentry finish at around 6:18, morph gateways and warp in 3 stalkers
Is this viable?
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EPT
