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LookNaph
Canada59 Posts
Though I would expect placing the cannon will be safer against any 3rax or 2rax scv all-ins. About the mid/lategame, I usually place double forges right after the early pressure and then chrono out the double upgrades and so far it seems to do pretty well. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed. I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count? | ||
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JaFF
25 Posts
On August 05 2011 04:35 b_unnies wrote: With the build you have 5 stalkers at around 5:55~ give or take couple secs. The build gets you to place 2gateways (wait for 300 mins) at 23 pop. If you scout at 4:00+ and you saw him with a reactor or a tech lab (which signifies early bio aggression) what if you get a forge at 23 pop at exactly 150 mins, rather than waiting for full 300 minerals for double gateways? By the time the cannon finishes at your natural it would be 5:45~ (10 secs faster than the 5 stalker timing) Wouldnt that make it easier to hold off early aggression without sacrificing as much units or pulling probes? Ok you wont be able to do any pressure early on and the ability to go kill a terran fast but if he's doing a reactor/tech lab on rax build, he's the one being aggressive and you're the one being defensive. The forge gives you mid/lategame application as well, extremely early upgrades and helps to defend your natural if he does the 11-12 minute 4 medivac 2 prong attack on your main and natural But scouting that reactor or tech lab doesn't tell you much, if anything at all. Scouting a reactor can mean he's going 1-1-1 and getting a forge won't be of much use against 1 base siege tanks + raven push. Scouting a tech lab can also easily mean 1rax FE. Having to invest in an early forge and cannon against an FE will more or less negate any econ advantages you get for using this build. (I'. assuming that you will be cutting a lot of probes since you still need to get ~3 gateways up because a single cannon and a gateway still won't be enough to stop that 2rax push). Moreover it's not easy to actually scout for that tech lab or reactor add-on once he starts unit production. You can't exactly rely on that 4:00 scouting of add-ons because some games you might catch a glimpse of the add-on (if he walls off with his rax or mismicros his units), but in other games, he should be able to deny any scouting. Based on my experience, you need to leave a stalker or a probe at his ramp to watch for the 2rax + scv push and chrono your gates, pull probes and micro for your life. For later pushes though, like the 2ghost timing push, i'm pretty sure you can sentry contain him in at his ramp in time. He'll have to tech to starport which will take a while since he already invested in ghosts. You should then have more than enough time to secure a lead strong enough to fend off any attacks he does after getting medivacs out. | ||
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whereismymind
United Kingdom717 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 05 2011 04:00 Alejandrisha wrote: No it cuts more probes. This is the build straight from the OP. 3gate expo is an entirely different animal i saw the replay Squirtle vs puma on Meta and the build its exactly the same as a 3gate, instead of putting down the 2extra gates at 27food, he putted down the nexus. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On August 08 2011 03:06 sickoota wrote: SC unfortunately absolutely demolishes it with a reactor first two rax, which is why noone really does this build anymore... I dont think its hard to hold that at all with good micro. | ||
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Hershey
United States12 Posts
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Hershey
United States12 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On August 06 2011 00:00 Xahhk wrote: After you complete the build order and you have 5 stalkers out at around 6 minutes how can you possibly get an obs or cannon out in time for the 7ish minute banshee fly in? At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed. I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count? vs a build that gets out a banshee w/ cloak that fast, you can just pressure him a lot with your 5 stalkers and most likely win/force a lot of SCV pulls (which delays the banshee w/ cloak). | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 08 2011 03:06 sickoota wrote: Hasuobs seems to have taken it upon himself to continue the legacy of this build. You can see a daily Day9 did on it here http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-333-p3-half-and-half-w-hasu-and-fxosc-5436468. SC unfortunately absolutely demolishes it with a reactor first two rax, which is why noone really does this build anymore... this build is good in large rush distance maps and Gasless FE from terran. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On August 06 2011 00:00 Xahhk wrote: After you complete the build order and you have 5 stalkers out at around 6 minutes how can you possibly get an obs or cannon out in time for the 7ish minute banshee fly in? At the very best the detection capability comes out after a batch of probes have been killed. I guess a probe sacrifice at around 5 minutes has to happen to try to infer something from the marine / bunker count? pressure as soon as you get units. any terran build that rushes for cloaked banshee only has like a few marines (a bunker at best), so a build that arrives at his doorstep that same time that a 4 gate does will probably kill him (or at least do enough damage to figure out what he's doing so that you can respond. i would not really expect optimal results on any 2 player maps or 4 player maps with short rush distances. other than that the only thing i can suggest is practice your stalker micro. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 08 2011 03:06 sickoota wrote: Hasuobs seems to have taken it upon himself to continue the legacy of this build. You can see a daily Day9 did on it here http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-333-p3-half-and-half-w-hasu-and-fxosc-5436468. SC unfortunately absolutely demolishes it with a reactor first two rax, which is why noone really does this build anymore... Hasu held it off perfectly fine and showed why this build is so powerful. His issue was how he followed up after the build, not the opening itself. SC caught Hasu powering off of this build. Pretty much any build or opening loses if you don't build units. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On July 25 2011 12:11 Alejandrisha wrote: HuK says that this build is too dangerous against a very well executed 12/16 reactor/tech lab which is very trendy on the korean server, so he no longer does it. His new build is as follows 9 py 13 gate 14 gas 15 py 17 core 18 gas He gets a stalker first and cb's it. You can put a CB on the WG as well but it's not too necessary. He pokes with the first stalker but cannot lose it. He expands at 30/34, with probes cut at 30 food. With sentries coming out constantly, he gets 2 gates after the nexus and then a pylon before resuming probe production. WG finishes with 3 or 4 sentries (he gets 3 and probes up to 34 food if no pressure is coming). He gets 3 sentries at WG finish and adds sentries/stalkers from there. To hold pressure, he takes the best possible position with his units on the low ground once WG is done and just uses FF to defend (no zealots) The build is pretty open ended from here. I've seen him go robo if the terran is being sketchy but more typically forge + twilight for blink stalkers and armor upgrades for map control and to try to take an upgrade edge for later in the game. Maybe he will come in here and tell me what I got wrong EDIT: I still do the 20 nexus a lot because even though it should lose to a very crisp 12/16 r/t, that build is not too popular on NA and the players that do it reactively don't do a great job of executing it. I know that's a bad way to approach the game but I find it too fun to drop altogether Where do the chronos go? On sentries? Do you keep atleast 3 CBs on warpgate? CB on probes? | ||
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Kammalleri
Canada613 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:29 Xahhk wrote: Where do the chronos go? On sentries? Do you keep atleast 3 CBs on warpgate? CB on probes? What do you mean? When going stalker/sentry/sentry the basic idea of the build (getting nexus while chrono-boosting warpgate-tech) doesn't change. The difference is, you get the 2nd gas, don't pull probes off gas and can still afford the early nexus and the subsequent warpgates by investing in sentries instead of mineral-heavy units. It's actually very similar to the one gate FE that people are doing in PvZ nowadays. Nevertheless, since meta-game seems to be shifting back to sentries, I found that doing the original build works great (again) on larger maps. Especially against no gas expands. Unless the bunker-placement is 100% perfect I can either run behind the natural or straight into the main and cut off all reinforcements and/or wreak havoc onto scvs. The underlying idea of the early attack - trading zealots for pulled scvs - has never stopped working. See Nani vs Thorzain game 2 blizz eu inv | ||
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