On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote: Good evening TL,
A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see...
I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days :
You want to know how I did it ?
To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build.
Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler +
10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp.
You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...)
Practise stutter-step micro !
vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority.
vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first.
vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him.
Strength and weekness of the build :
It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved)
If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker
Replays : Trolling the Pros
I said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now
Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon :
Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it.
RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings
More replays coming soon
Conclusion :
I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^
As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)
So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted.
I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED.
If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there.
I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it.
Here are some elements of response :
1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game )
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
I agree that playing with better people makes you a better player, but by doing cheese(which really only helps a very small portion of your game) you are not getting any better because you are doing the same 1 base build every time.
Most people want to people of the same skill, I dont know anybody who wants to 1v1 all day and get smashed the entire day, not to mention just doing a coin flip build all day as well.
It is fun to run into the pros, but its pretty stupid when all you have is a cheesy build to offfer. Play standard see how well you can match up. That is where you learn the most. By matching standard build vs standard build you start to see all the little things that makes them a pro and you an average player. Thus, you learn where to improve and what things are missing from your game.
Cheesing is not a good way to become better at this game, you can read every interview of the "Pros" that you think are so fun to play agaisnt and not a single one will say "Well if your looking to get better at this game then you should start by cheesing every game." They will say the opposite, work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.'
TL: DR If you want to become better at this game, don't give into cheesing every game, play standard and work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.
Yeah man, it's not like some Terran got to the finals in GSL 3 last year by just building marines and SCVs, that's just silly
On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote: Good evening TL,
A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see...
I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days :
You want to know how I did it ?
To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build.
Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler +
10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp.
You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...)
Practise stutter-step micro !
vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority.
vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first.
vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him.
Strength and weekness of the build :
It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved)
If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker
Replays : Trolling the Pros
I said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now
Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon :
Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it.
RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings
More replays coming soon
Conclusion :
I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^
As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)
So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted.
I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED.
If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there.
I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it.
Here are some elements of response :
1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game )
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
I agree that playing with better people makes you a better player, but by doing cheese(which really only helps a very small portion of your game) you are not getting any better because you are doing the same 1 base build every time.
Most people want to people of the same skill, I dont know anybody who wants to 1v1 all day and get smashed the entire day, not to mention just doing a coin flip build all day as well.
It is fun to run into the pros, but its pretty stupid when all you have is a cheesy build to offfer. Play standard see how well you can match up. That is where you learn the most. By matching standard build vs standard build you start to see all the little things that makes them a pro and you an average player. Thus, you learn where to improve and what things are missing from your game.
Cheesing is not a good way to become better at this game, you can read every interview of the "Pros" that you think are so fun to play agaisnt and not a single one will say "Well if your looking to get better at this game then you should start by cheesing every game." They will say the opposite, work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.'
TL: DR If you want to become better at this game, don't give into cheesing every game, play standard and work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.
We'll just have to disagree on this one . I tell all my friends who are new to the game to start off by cheesing. For protoss for example I tell them : do a perfect 4 gate vs every race. Once you'll manage to have 6 stalkers and 1 zealot at the opponent's base at 5:50 every single time, We'll start talking strategy. And when they do succeed in 4 gating, they are already plat/diamond and then have no problem learning about the game. I tried teaching people with the classic "Macro" method. (always have less then 500 ressource, constant worker production, constant production facilities use) but I just doesn't work. They remain stuck in bronze because they keep on getting cheesed, and they don't learn anything. Cheesing up the ladder, then learning to play is the way to go.
However this method does not apply to people who don't like losing. Personaly, i have no problem just getting smashed by people better than me 20 times in a row for the sake of learning, but not everyone is like this
Until your mechanics are decent all the talks of strategy and tactics and macro mean absolutely nothing.
Pylons and probes pylons and probes.
If you have to learn to build workers and pylons consistently by 4gating or 3raxing or roach rushing--then so be it. By the time you figure out how to do the cheeses aptly, you would know enough about basic concepts that when you're told "Try doing a 111 build" you're not stuck having a hard time building your 2nd supply depot since you've learned when the good time is to build your first 4.
Sounds like a a real pain to hold off! But really, the bottom wall off is a total hint that something stupid is coming up.
I'd really like to play with you to try it out a few times(im zerg)! add me Douillos#160
PS: being proud of doing the same build from copper to diamond and then another one from diamond to master (on a 70 game a day basis), is just hilarious. How you can call the game fun playing like that is a total mistery to me.
On May 16 2011 15:06 Geiko wrote: My win rate with this is pretty high (something like 3/1) and I am having trouble finding replays of me losing to people who've never played me (I lose plenty to people that I meet twice). Here is one I'll add to OP : MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) I'll try to find one for each race in the up coming days.
wow that was cool
what was the point of that early pylon next to your rax anyways?
he saw your push with his scouting stalker and was able to perma FF his entrance lol skillz
I have no idea what he was doing with that pylon. My guess is he was using it to scout for an add on on my barracks or not (or just delaying the add on if i was planning on putting one). yeah the 1.3.3 patch has screwed this build over a bit. I tried standard zealot -> stalker -> sentry -> sentry and it wouldn't hold before the patch by a few seconds. Now I think it just might if you chrono out all your sentries (not warpgate).
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
Yep.. it definitely is... very important to be familiar with all the timings...
however... korean 4 wg into diamond...lol... i mean it's a very good cheese but a tad tedious maybe? lol i've like played only 50 games 1v1 since and already find it quite boring... 3v3 is more fun. teamwork adds a cool aspect....err well i'm just a lazy gamer and having great teammates cuts some slack on my messups lol (plus my pride is hurt more in a 1v1...while in a 3v3, although i can't openly admit it, deep down i prolly am putting some blame on my teammates so it feels less painful lol...)
anyways, you sir have got both brains and discipline...
Thanks <3 I love getting positive feedback on my threads, feel free to post, even if it is just to say you enjoyed the replays and the strat
On May 16 2011 16:29 Douillos wrote: Sounds like a a real pain to hold off! But really, the bottom wall off is a total hint that something stupid is coming up.
I'd really like to play with you to try it out a few times(im zerg)! add me Douillos#160
PS: being proud of doing the same build from copper to diamond and then another one from diamond to master (on a 70 game a day basis), is just hilarious. How you can call the game fun playing like that is a total mistery to me.
No you misread the OP, I'm a decent master protoss player without cheesing The terran cheese just got me to top 1 master ^^ And 70 games at ~ 5 mins per game is only like 6-7 hours of play and I did them over 2 days (just reached pro level yesterday though)
Sure, I won't be available this week, but this weekend I'll have some time to play. Anyone who wants to play vs this can add me (geiko.813) and I'll be glad to do the uild on you and give you advice on how to stop it.
Edit : Also, LOL to the 80 people who actualy dowloaded my fail replay of me playing terran ^^
On May 16 2011 16:29 Douillos wrote: Sounds like a a real pain to hold off! But really, the bottom wall off is a total hint that something stupid is coming up.
I'd really like to play with you to try it out a few times(im zerg)! add me Douillos#160
PS: being proud of doing the same build from copper to diamond and then another one from diamond to master (on a 70 game a day basis), is just hilarious. How you can call the game fun playing like that is a total mistery to me.
No you misread the OP, I'm a decent master protoss player without cheesing The terran cheese just got me to top 1 master ^^ And 70 games at ~ 5 mins per game is only like 6-7 hours of play and I did them over 2 days (just reached pro level yesterday though)
Sure, I won't be available this week, but this weekend I'll have some time to play. Anyone who wants to play vs this can add me (geiko.813) and I'll be glad to do the uild on you and give you advice on how to stop it.
K misread then ^^
It's actually cool we can have a few ZvP's then too
If you get scouted too early, you can just do a normal Terran build. This build's major deviations only show up after you've walled in, at which point no workers can enter your base.
On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote: Good evening TL,
A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see...
I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days :
You want to know how I did it ?
To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build.
Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler +
10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp.
You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...)
Practise stutter-step micro !
vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority.
vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first.
vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him.
Strength and weekness of the build :
It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved)
If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker
Replays : Trolling the Pros
I said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now
Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon :
Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it.
RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings
More replays coming soon
Conclusion :
I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^
As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)
So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted.
I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED.
If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there.
I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it.
Here are some elements of response :
1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game )
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
I agree that playing with better people makes you a better player, but by doing cheese(which really only helps a very small portion of your game) you are not getting any better because you are doing the same 1 base build every time.
Most people want to people of the same skill, I dont know anybody who wants to 1v1 all day and get smashed the entire day, not to mention just doing a coin flip build all day as well.
It is fun to run into the pros, but its pretty stupid when all you have is a cheesy build to offfer. Play standard see how well you can match up. That is where you learn the most. By matching standard build vs standard build you start to see all the little things that makes them a pro and you an average player. Thus, you learn where to improve and what things are missing from your game.
Cheesing is not a good way to become better at this game, you can read every interview of the "Pros" that you think are so fun to play agaisnt and not a single one will say "Well if your looking to get better at this game then you should start by cheesing every game." They will say the opposite, work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.'
TL: DR If you want to become better at this game, don't give into cheesing every game, play standard and work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.
We'll just have to disagree on this one . I tell all my friends who are new to the game to start off by cheesing. For protoss for example I tell them : do a perfect 4 gate vs every race. Once you'll manage to have 6 stalkers and 1 zealot at the opponent's base at 5:50 every single time, We'll start talking strategy. And when they do succeed in 4 gating, they are already plat/diamond and then have no problem learning about the game. I tried teaching people with the classic "Macro" method. (always have less then 500 ressource, constant worker production, constant production facilities use) but I just doesn't work. They remain stuck in bronze because they keep on getting cheesed, and they don't learn anything. Cheesing up the ladder, then learning to play is the way to go.
However this method does not apply to people who don't like losing. Personaly, i have no problem just getting smashed by people better than me 20 times in a row for the sake of learning, but not everyone is like this
Until your mechanics are decent all the talks of strategy and tactics and macro mean absolutely nothing.
Pylons and probes pylons and probes.
If you have to learn to build workers and pylons consistently by 4gating or 3raxing or roach rushing--then so be it. By the time you figure out how to do the cheeses aptly, you would know enough about basic concepts that when you're told "Try doing a 111 build" you're not stuck having a hard time building your 2nd supply depot since you've learned when the good time is to build your first 4.
Indeed.
The simplest game plan is to mass basic units and attack until you win. Until a player can reasonably execute that game plan (and meets opponents who can defeat it), there's little reason to introduce complexities.
RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank50) He gets ultra fast banelings
More replays coming soon
ah well, his overlord saw scvs leave your mineral lines in the main. the overlord was on a cliff...not sure if your marines can hit it... anyways seeing the all-in he was able to be well-prepared by morphing all his larvae to lings (@4:30) and starting the baneling nest too.
RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank50) He gets ultra fast banelings
More replays coming soon
ah well, his overlord saw scvs leave your mineral lines in the main. the overlord was on a cliff...not sure if your marines can hit it... anyways seeing the all-in he was able to be well-prepared by morphing all his larvae to lings (@4:30) and starting the baneling nest too.
Yeah, it also helps that I had beaten him a couple of games back with that same build. Close-air position zergs are a pain in general. Sometimes they boldly place their overlord on top of your ramp, some times they find sweet spots to check your gas and late OC... The only upside is that you can save a scouting SCV.
Posts like this actually help players who prefer to play a long macro game. By posting this, you have raised awareness of this cheesey build and long term macro players like me can now spot it and beat it.
If you came up with this build yourself, then you deserve rank 1 master league for being innovative, IMO! :D
....öhm wait... i also have to say something what hits the OP post...
You said ultra fast Banelings counter this "build"... true, but not realy viable for the zerg, because the banenest is too late, if he goes for 15 hatch 14 pool.
Zerg should just build 1, maybe 2 spinecrawlers if he's scared or because of the huge choak, depening on the map, and mass lings, and its gg. The point is to pull drones and let am a-click attack the scv's, while the spinecrawlers finish them up and focus the marines with the lings/queen.
On May 16 2011 17:23 Crytch wrote: Trololololololololol
....öhm wait... i also have to say something what hits the OP post...
You said ultra fast Banelings counter this "build"... true, but not realy viable for the zerg, because the banenest is too late, if he goes for 15 hatch 14 pool.
Zerg should just build 1, maybe 2 spinecrawlers if he's scared or because of the huge choak, depening on the map, and mass lings, and its gg. The point is to pull drones and let am a-click attack the scv's, while the spinecrawlers finish them up and focus the marines with the lings/queen.
True, the key is the element of surprise. If you can storm in his base and take out his spine crawler before he has the occasion tu pull drones, you win. To do this, you must be very active with your marines and clear the map of any scouting zerglings. Vs 2 early spine crawlers, yes it is basicaly gg.
Well this only contributes to my opinion that unit sight range and scouting in SC II is a joke. Most of the time it is just a silly poker gamble because you dont have information, and a strategy game without sufficient information, is no strategie game at all. It feels like tetris but with invisible bricks ....
On May 16 2011 17:34 Holy_AT wrote: Well this only contributes to my opinion that unit sight range and scouting in SC II is a joke. Most of the time it is just a silly poker gamble because you dont have information, and a strategy game without sufficient information, is no strategie game at all. It feels like tetris but with invisible bricks ....
I gave this a shot this morning in 5 quick games and won 4 of them on master level. My loss was against a 1/1/1 Terran that made a hellion and repaired it with all SCVs while kiting. OK, my mirco was also crappy that game (switched up the control groups of SCVs and marines) but that might also be a way to stop the build. As soon as he has 2-3 hellions out it's over.
Though I play it without wall off feigning a FE and proxy 2 raxes. Few players count SCVs as long as it's not blatantly undersaturated whereas most get suspicious at a bottom ramp wall off.
Funny thing was when I met another Terran doing this and my proxy raxing SCV just came in time to see the supply calldown. One bunker later, I had the game.
On May 16 2011 18:21 HelloxD wrote: Hmm, i wonder how this build goes against a 4 gate.. ( lower ranked toss mostly 4 gate )
Your push comes at 5:10 at his ramp (if you are doing it right) This crushes 4 gate (even more so with the recent patch) which comes out at 5:45 something... vs korean 4g which comes out at 5:15 (but has no units before), you should be able to kite the zealots and deal with 3 stalkers if it is a gas version.
On May 16 2011 14:18 Daniel C wrote: Despite your claim that it the 3-rax is "unscoutable" with the low wall-in, the low wall-in *itself* is a VERY strong hint.
On May 16 2011 14:18 Daniel C wrote: Despite your claim that it the 3-rax is "unscoutable" with the low wall-in, the low wall-in *itself* is a VERY strong hint.
Not really.
wut
Low wall in is a hint but is not giving you a 100% read on your opponent.
As stated in this thread, there are a lot of 1 rax FE that can use this (and then bunker up the front to protect the depot, so low ramp depot isn't a liability). I've also seen MVP do a low wall off in a GSL match (can't remember which one) where he then takes double gas and techs to cloaked banshee.
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