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On May 16 2011 12:11 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 12:09 ZeromuS wrote:So any ideas on Zerg, Terran or Protoss responses? It would be cool to compile them into a post somewhere in these forums so people using search function can find it  Protoss response when seeing the cut workers+multiple rax can be quick forge+cannons, fast sentry, or 2gate lots (pulling probes is okay too since he is pulling his SCVs). Terran response is easy: just build a bunker. If you walled (which doesn't happen much in TvT but it still does), it's even easier to defend with a bunker.
Jesus crist, can you READ THE OP $%&... He WALLS THE RAMP, so no scout allowed unless you get lucky and find him 1rst on close positions.
These Terran cheeses ruins the game, seriusly thx for posting this so the players can find how to stop this new crap. Minimal skill for amazing results: thats not what smart people want from a good strat game. The most ironic about this, is that is easily to hold only as terran...
User was warned for this post
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Just giggling watching this.. such cheese.. so effective..
and this:
Practise stutter-step micro !
is pure win..
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This is working well for me. Been off racing with terran and just having some fun. Like he said if its scouted its GG from there.
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On May 16 2011 13:18 zergrushkekeke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 12:57 Darpa wrote:
2. as protoss you can either hold this off with a fast 12, gate with sentries and pull probes before the push hits. Or a fast forge denies the shit out of this build.
If the protoss is going for a FFE on say shakuras couldn't the rush just run past the cannons, take a few losses and then kill all the probes? It sounds like the correct response is cannons but if its not scouted do you have time and resources to wall off the top ramp completely?
The units are really weak when the push hits, you should have a 2 zealtos a sentry and 2 cannons, one good forcefield will smash it pretty good. But its pretty hard to know its coming, if you dont scout it super early its pretty much an auto loss for toss.
That said, this works way worse on zerg. All they have to do is drop 2 spines, even if they are super super early. 2 Spines and 6 llings and a queen will deny the rush. I would say 60% of the zergs i did it too just held it off with good scouting and spines. Protoss on the other hand is in much worse shape.
But i dont know, my push usually hits there base around 5::30 and am doing the exact build order described. 9 marines/12 scvs. 5:30 against zerg is pretty stoppable if they scouted at all.
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I cant understand how people can enjoy winning games with this type of strategies ..
Pullings all svc's... Its something I'll never do in my life even in an decisive match
And yea as a protoss its extremly hard to stop even scouted
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So let me confirm my self, theres no good response from Zerg, whatever the Zerg does, he is going to get A-moved and steamed-over. I guess my laddering career has ended for now, until blizzard figured something out.
EDIT: Does Banelings work? I doubt a standard timing can hold this off.
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On May 16 2011 13:53 TolEranceNA wrote:
So let me confirm my self, theres no good response from Zerg, whatever the Zerg does, he is going to get A-moved and steamed-over. I guess my laddering career has ended for now, until blizzard figured something out.
EDIT: Does Banelings work? I doubt a standard timing can hold this off.
Like i said in my previous post. Good scouting (i.e. if your close positions you will get your scout in before he can wall. or if you barrack/depot at the bottom of the ramp) is key. If you see either of those just drop 2-3 early spine crawlers and you will smash the push and take a free win. Its only if you dont scout it that its hard to stop.
edit. Particularily if you see a supply drop on the depot you should have cause for worry.
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On May 16 2011 13:53 TolEranceNA wrote:
So let me confirm my self, theres no good response from Zerg, whatever the Zerg does, he is going to get A-moved and steamed-over. I guess my laddering career has ended for now, until blizzard figured something out.
EDIT: Does Banelings work? I doubt a standard timing can hold this off.
Like they have said, vs zerg if you rush 2 banelings you win, if you sac your FE and throw up some spines you win, if you rush out some roaches you win. its not unstoppable just like any other cheese, you just have to deviate from your normal game and scout it early enough to beat it.I don't think it will really even change the meta game that much.
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On May 16 2011 13:59 Darpa wrote:
edit. Particularily if you see a supply drop on the depot you should have cause for worry.
This I want to look into, can a terran get an econ build going after a supply drop?
I'll test a 1 rax FE with supply drop to see if it holds up to a normal oc - mule - cc build. If it is such a tell tale sign of a scary rush and it doesn't hurt income that much I might open with this all the time and just cut scvs and transfer to the rush version if I scout something totally beatable.
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United States17042 Posts
it can be fun in TvT to proxy the second rax - they scout no gas, so it looks like a 1 rax fe, and then you dominate them with the all-in (especially if they actually went 1 rax fe, which is much more common if you scout no gas from them).
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I don't doubt your replays but I'm surprised that it worked against so many pro players as it did.
Despite your claim that it the 3-rax is "unscoutable" with the low wall-in, the low wall-in *itself* is a VERY strong hint.
1. TvT. Why would you low-wall at all? It's super-vulnerable to anything and a cheese is strongly suspected. A rax + SD + SD high wall-off is less suspicious, would suggest more of a high gas build but I understand this would delay your build too much.
2. TvP. Same as above, there's no reason ever to wall on the low ground against P.
3. TvZ This is the only match-up where a low wall-off is not abnormal.
Just my 2 cents
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next time i see a terran do a low ramp wall i'm throwing up a forge and possibly cannoning his wall.
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I think a couple weeks back I was watching KawaiiRice's stream and he was opening with a low ground ramp walloff into 1rax expand vs Z. That might be a good way to put the fear of the all-in into a opponent and triggering an overreaction while you get your econ up.
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Guys, It's okay, this isn't unbeatable.
Some friends and I were doing a very similar build to this on the ladder about a month ago. It was a variation that involved proxying 2 of the racks, instead of building them in base. It worked very very well. However, I have learned a thing or two about the weaknesses of this build.
1) If you ever see a terran wall at the base of the ramp, you should start to suspect cheese. The only reason you would wall at the base of the ramp is to deny early scouting, and hide something that would lose if scouted.
2) If you scout a wall at the bottom of the ramp, prepare defenses, and be ready to engage it away from a choke point. Drop a spine, chrono a sentry, start a bunker, etc.. Play it safe. If he ends up not all-inning you, then just exploit his low ground wall off and kill him.
3) If you don't see it coming till it is at your base, or half way across the map, don't panic and a-move to your ramp. Engaging on the ramp is the worst possible place you can engage. If you can get him out in the open you can flank his scv's and go for the marines. You WILL have a harvester advantage, as well as a unit advantage. Bypass the meatshields and attack the marines, and you win.
tl;dr
- Play it safe if your opponent walls in on the low-ground
- Don't engage in a choke
- Prioritize the marines over the meatshields.
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On May 16 2011 14:18 Daniel C wrote:
I don't doubt your replays but I'm surprised that it worked against so many pro players as it did.
Despite your claim that it the 3-rax is "unscoutable" with the low wall-in, the low wall-in *itself* is a VERY strong hint.
1. TvT. Why would you low-wall at all? It's super-vulnerable to anything and a cheese is strongly suspected. A rax + SD + SD high wall-off is less suspicious, would suggest more of a high gas build but I understand this would delay your build too much.
2. TvP. Same as above, there's no reason ever to wall on the low ground against P.
3. TvZ This is the only match-up where a low wall-off is not abnormal.
Just my 2 cents I brought up the same points, a low wall off in vP and vT is so abnormal it should be almost be a 100% tell, any other time walling off low is just a handicap because you made a rax + supply depot vulnerable.
vZ the zerg just has to be doing his best to poke and see it coming asap, spines queens and lings should be enough just like any other scv marine all in. even playing zerg i consider a low wall off to be a hint at cheese, because its bad placement for an expansion build on most maps.
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SVC's are not really OP, but I do believe they're almost balanced with Probes and Drones, although they have no regen so they are the worst of the 3 in my opinion
Um. SCVs can repair other SCVs? equal to or better than bio/shield regen.
But regarding the build, that looks devastating if it goes unscouted. I've never run across it but now i guess I should expect to T.T
Anyways good build, more cheese=more opps for bronze level players to make fun Day9 dailies 
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My win rate with this is pretty high (something like 3/1) and I am having trouble finding replays of me losing to people who've never played me (I lose plenty to people that I meet twice).
Here is one I'll add to OP :
MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209348.jpg)
I'll try to find one for each race in the up coming days.
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On May 16 2011 12:57 Darpa wrote:
I tried this build 14 times tonight, 2 problems arose, (I also played it with toss to try and see how you could defend).
1, most maps you cant wall off with a depot and barracks + scv.
Only 2 maps in the current map pool can't be low walled with sd/rax and you can just downvote them.
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Could the 3 gate sentry expand from Protoss hold it off?
Since by the time the nexus is dropped, there are 3 sentries out. Instead, cancel the nexus, warp more sentries and keep ramp FF'ed indefinitely. I believe it takes 6 sentries to keep a constant FF up.
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On May 16 2011 14:18 Daniel C wrote:
Despite your claim that it the 3-rax is "unscoutable" with the low wall-in, the low wall-in *itself* is a VERY strong hint.
Not really.
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EPT
