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Nineteen_
United States34 Posts
He did the build COMPLETELY wrong and the push got super delayed/weakened as a result. ok even assuming he did the build wrong, if you go watch the replay again, i didnt put down my roach worn right after my pool, so i could have put down my roach worn sooner and absolutely have 5 roaches to destroy his rush. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:12 Nineteen_ wrote: ok even assuming he did the build wrong, if you go watch the replay again, i didnt put down my roach worn right after my pool, so i could have put down my roach worn sooner and absolutely have 5 roaches to destroy his rush. since you are new to these forums I'm letting you know that on these forums timings are everything when it comes to advice concerning a timing based attack. You cannot say you could have put a warren down sooner if you dont normally play your build that way given there is no scouting info to warrant it necessarily. Since the push came late you also had time to build a spine, to get more larva for zerglings and have 2 queens at your bases. The timing coming wrong is EVERYTHING in starcraft so accept your replay wasn't a good example and move on into saying that *perhaps* an earlier roach warren could help but that it would need to be tested more. In the same way getting a forge and cannons as protoss is unlikely since the TIME it takes to build them is pretty long considering this push comes about 4:30 into the game. I thought of that but I can't quite suggest it wholeheartedly with a replay if I havent tested it more than once against a build executed perfectly | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
http://drop.sc/10758 My build: 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas 16 overlord @100% pool 1 queen at natural, roach warren in main, 2 sets of lings @100% warren 3 roaches (all other larvae should have been used for drones and ovies) If you scout the all in coming get all your units into your main (sac the natural, he's pulling all the scvs so it doesn't matter) and wait til you have enough units to defeat the attack. Pull all your drones and get your queen and all the roaches in the battle. If you don't see any all in coming don't make any more than the initial 3 roaches and just make pure drones (and 2nd queen) and pressure with the first few roaches (this will also give you all the scouting info you need to know what he's doing) | ||
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Owarida
United States333 Posts
After the second game of this here is some rage I got, "Honeydew: stupid piece of shit switches from Zerg cuz you fucking blow" "Honeydew: fag, you have no skill level" LUL KIDS SO FUCKING MAD... User was warned for this post | ||
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Nineteen_
United States34 Posts
Since the push came late you also had time to build a spine, to get more larva for zerglings and have 2 queens at your bases. The timing coming wrong is EVERYTHING in starcraft so accept your replay wasn't a good example and move on into saying that *perhaps* an earlier roach warren could help but that it would need to be tested more. hey thanks for the advise.  appreciate it.so to all zerg players, it is highly possible to stop this cheese by roach warren right after spawning pool, do it as its a not really a bad investment in early zvt as suiciding hellions to kill yourr drones is get more and more popular. Mod Edit: Please stop giving advice. | ||
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EdwardStarcraft
119 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208 edit: The reason I posted that thread on the low wall guide was to post the followup on the cheese I was doing, but it looks like I never posted it. After watching a few of the replays, I'm fairly certain you got this from me, because you're doing the less efficient variation I had in the example vid (except I just left earlier). Also, the variation you do is far weaker than the one i've been doing , but hits about the same time. 10 depot 11 rax (wall off bot) 11 rax 12 rax 15 depot 24 OC unless your macro slips 15 marines and 12 SCVs at 5min.... was pretty sure I posted that a while back but if not, then cheers anyway. The all-in is a-move win versus just about every zerg opener up to high master, and fairly strong versus toss although easily hard countered with a standard opener if he just opts for a stalker instead of sentry first. For terran if he knows what do he'll destroy it. If you send your SCVs to surround the bunker as you push up, you can catch him off guard and he'll die, but for toss, he only has to push his stalkers up (he'll have 1 at least, possibly a 2nd as you push out), and he should be trying to harass your low wall, and when you push out kite your marines back to his base. Going to dig up some replays but if I can find then it'll be okay. This all-in is super duper strong vs zerg, and pretty strong vs protoss with below-average micro. edit2: to add to your OP, since i've done this build ~50+ times myself on ladders: You need to decide whether to wall with standard 2rax or wall the low ramp. The low ramp wall will put your SCVs at risk, and if your opponent scouts you in time, he can kill 1-2 SCVs, esp on a map like close metal (see replay in the low wall thread). Against zerg: Basically a-move your marines and keep the scvs in front. The HP advantage from the SCVs behooves you to just attack with them rather than use them to block your marines. Extremely difficult to hold as zerg and requires very good scouting. If you scout a low ramp wall you need to play extremely conservatively if you opened hatch first. Against terran: always low wall because if you can bait marine aggression from the other player (sometimes bunker pushes) you're at a huge advantage. If he went factory it's basically a build order loss. I highly recommend sending SCVs unless the map is huge, because if you catch him off guard, you can surround the bunker before the SCVs can move in to repair. Very easy to hold as terran though as long as you have 1 bunker and can get your SCVs on it. Against protoss: Very very important to push in and get those stalkers as soon as possible. Send at least some scvs to chase the stalkers, but mostly worry about getting your marines to focus down those stalkers before they get a chance to kite. Your best bet is queueing those marines outside your opponent's base such that you can bullet up the ramp when you're ready, OR catch him moving out if he's 4gating in response. General execution: When you're clearing XN towers, you need to only show a few marines at once at either tower. You can reveal on the map multiple marines, but it's important to make sure your opponent "sees" that you're just being aggressive with a 1rax amount of marines. So if you decide to make use of 5-6 early on, just be mindful of blowing your cover. You DO not want to lose marines while you're clearing the map, as every marine is more DPS to snipe those bunkers, spines, stalkers. add: here's a few of the replays of the stronger version in TvZ:  vs  TheDoctor vs strobot ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) vs TheDoctor vs strobot vs TheDoctor vs strobot vs TheDoctor vs strobot I dont have tim to caption them but I think the last one is the blind hold. These are top 250 replays trying to figure out how to stop this in tvz. Would like some credit please. User was warned for this post | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:25 Nineteen_ wrote: hey thanks for the advise. appreciate it.so to all zerg players, it is highly possible to stop this cheese by roach warren right after spawning pool, do it as its a not really a bad investment in early zvt as suiciding hellions to kill yourr drones is get more and more popular. See much more quality post highlighting the benefits of an early roach warren But i think it hurts your gas intake and keeps you from getting speed as fast. I like the idea of the roach warren with a rax on bottom of the ramp making this a response like Najda said it helps you not fall too far behind if they decide to open standard | ||
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Owarida
United States333 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:25 Nineteen_ wrote: hey thanks for the advise. appreciate it.so to all zerg players, it is highly possible to stop this cheese by roach warren right after spawning pool, do it as its a not really a bad investment in early zvt as suiciding hellions to kill yourr drones is get more and more popular. Here is the problem. Because its hidden cheese, you don't KNOW that hes doing all in marine. If you do this early roach, it is really just bad. You don't get the quick hatch, you don't get the early drones, your sacing ling speed, just to hopefully perhaps mabby stop an allin. | ||
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MusiK
United States302 Posts
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Aggnog
Bulgaria77 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:37 Aggnog wrote: Even though you say you are a bad terran player, being master league with any other race is what lets you see success with a well planned all in. It's not like this method is applicable to all. After initially raging when I saw the PTR changes for Toss, I switched to Terran and did a similar build (as a diamond player). I won a lot of games, easily. Most of the time I walked in and just killed my opponent. Usually I lost to Terrans who built bunkers when I did lose. Then they reduced the WG timing to 160 (from 180) on the PTR I went back to Toss. However, I am convinced that Terran is the easiest to play now. Having bunkers (a defensive structure) coming out of the basic unit producing structure (ie not requiring a forge), and allowing them to be used offensively (ie not requiring creep), and even be salvaged if the attack isn't going right, is incredibly powerful, especially with high HP workers and a ranged basic unit. It makes Terran easy to play in my opinion. And he said he was mid-level masters as Protoss and went to #1 masters as Terran with this build. So I would say this is applicable to all. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:37 Aggnog wrote: Even though you say you are a bad terran player, being master league with any other race is what lets you see success with a well planned all in. It's not like this method is applicable to all. the build is quite simple and so is basic stutter step I think the player doesnt need to be amazing to pull this off to be honest. So i can see the point the OP is making | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
I LOVE micro builds, thank you for sharing! | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
1, most maps you cant wall off with a depot and barracks + scv. 2. as protoss you can either hold this off with a fast 12, gate with sentries and pull probes before the push hits. Or a fast forge denies the shit out of this build. either way, seems to work well. edit. I think proxying the other 2 rax or hiding them on the map might work better and be less scoutable. | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
The wall in at bottom is usually a huge tell that its an all in, especially in TvT where most people do not wall off in the first place. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
lol yea i can't recall a game where i lost doing rax rushes except when i forget to keep building rax and scvs and more marines and bunkers.. have to keep the thing rolling: rax, scv, marines, bunker checklist on and on and to remember the micro pressure to do the slow bunker push of doom...i haven't yet tried teching while doing mass marines... my macro mechanics aint good enough beyond maintaining pressure (getting a 200/200 army of upgraded marines and bunker) while expanding...whenever i try to tech after cheesing successfully (as in i already know i will win if i just follow through), i lose lol as i forget to increase marine and bunker count XD EDIT: at the high level, i'm not sure in the advantages in starting out with 3 rax instead of 2... (perhaps it helps with macro) which is what i was trying to get at... 3 rax helps keep the mineral count low. EDIT 2: I also have a lot of trouble with bunker placement... seems like a competent player would reform a line...and sometimes even prevent you from securing the high ground at their entrance. If I didn't need to keep cancelling and rebuilding my bunkers and sending more scvs...my macro would be a lot better...i have to rewatch your replays more lol...maybe i should just do exactly what you do  but eh...my preference is a continuous stream and only 3-5 scvs at the front line instead of all-in types... | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On May 16 2011 12:57 Darpa wrote: 2. as protoss you can either hold this off with a fast 12, gate with sentries and pull probes before the push hits. Or a fast forge denies the shit out of this build. If the protoss is going for a FFE on say shakuras couldn't the rush just run past the cannons, take a few losses and then kill all the probes? It sounds like the correct response is cannons but if its not scouted do you have time and resources to wall off the top ramp completely? | ||
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MusiK
United States302 Posts
Anyway, I think this is a good thing for SC2 at this point. As frustrating as it is to deal with these kinds oc cheeses, I think that people eventually overcome it somehow. If we take a look back at the baneling bust, we thought we could never beat it, however that was wrong. Good wall offs and tank timings were able to stop it. The only thing I'm afraid of is that this build is extremely hard to scout, so I'm excited to see how people are going to deal with this. =] | ||
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