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On May 23 2011 19:30 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 10:03 Nimue42 wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KgmH8.png) My interpretation is that having the OC completed before the push only hurts a bit (slightly slower reinforcements), except if you want to leave at 4:10 or at 5:00, in which case it costs you one marine. Wow, interesting work. So if I'm reading this correctly, I was right to assume that if I want to push at 4:30, getting an orbital is good because I can get the same number of marines at 4:30 as without the orbital ?
Exactly. The other thing that graph tells us is that you can squeeze one more marine in that time window (10, instead of 9). The build it found trains the last SCV later than in your OP, as it otherwise delays the second rax, while you only need the extra income to train marines.
10/11 depot
11/19 rax (and one can leave to scout when the rax is started)
11/19 rax
12/19 last scv, after the *second* rax
12/19 rax
12/19-16/19 marine
16/19 OC (the 3rd rax should be almost done)
Keep pumping marines, the OC and supply drop complete just in time.
That gives you 10 marines, 12 SCVs, and 3 more marines on their way by 4:30.
Again, the interesting question to me is not how to build the push (a computer can pretty much solve that), but at what time to push, again each match up.
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Personally, when I come up against this build I tend to throw down a forge, get a few cannons, and sentries to turn this in my favor. I don't know if this is the best way to beat this build, but I have been very successful with it.
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The only problem is that if you scout thye bottom wall in you know he is rushing, atleast i have yet to see someone wall in on the bottom without rushing.
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On May 23 2011 15:54 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 13:46 -orb- wrote:
I love how a protoss player offraced as terran and in a single day of laddering ended up #1 masters playing against tons of super high-ranked grandmasters players with only 1 build every single game.
And terran players try to pretend terran is hard to play LOL LOL Combat ex, optikzero, perfect, and countless other tosses 4 gated their way to GM. So basically, cool story bro, tell it to me again some time.
as much as i wish they did they definitely didn't, 4 gate is terrible in anything non-pvp unless its transitioned into after a fake
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This build is so annoying and its impossible to scout as Z unless you get close air position but I think you can hold it with 2 spines and having the drones standing around the spines and spamming S (screwing up the AI, making the SCV's try to attack the spine even though they should go for the drones)
But this build is rly annoying 
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Ill have to give this a shot later today, I have been losing non-stop to toss lately.... maybe this will help me out!
I may have had a follower of the OP the other day, he walled at the bottom so I immediately made a bunker. When I saw him comign, I pulled scvs to surround my bunker and repair and he got worked pretty bad.
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France13004 Posts
Oh I found that my old TvP 3rax all-in is much more powerful than this build (even if he comes later) against P, especially with the warpgate nerf :D. The supply drop is too much of a weakness.
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I don't like this. This will not make you a better player, and if or when the meta-game changes so this ain't working.. you're screwed and will lose every match til your back at square one!
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From now on i will do a low walloff followed by a coinflip to decide whether i do marine SCV, banshee, hellions or gasless CC :D
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worst build ever..... scouted 8 out of 10 times...
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On May 24 2011 02:31 elvisjagger wrote:
worst build ever..... scouted 8 out of 10 times...
Great first post, you sound like a toothpaste commercial.
By the way, don't worry about people jumping ranks with this build. This, just like every other cheese, will be dealt with effectively in time, and will become useful only in maybe a BoX situation. Eventually it will be beat most of the time, and the people only doing this will be beaten in cheese and standard games alike. They'll get their just deserts.
Other than, the lasting feature of this cheese (until Blizz puts in neutral supply depots) is the metagame of the low ground wall-off.
And honestly, isn't the metagame changing a good thing? In a game that is played so standard 75% of the time, having just another thing to think about diversifies the match-up.
Just my thoughts.
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Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D
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On May 24 2011 02:49 Ineffability~ wrote:
Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D
The problem with that is that on 1v1 maps and close by ground 4 player positions is that the scouting harvester can get in before the wall is finished, and see the no orbital command, no gas, 3 rax and small worker count before you get your first marine out to shoo him away.
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France13004 Posts
On May 24 2011 02:51 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:49 Ineffability~ wrote:
Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D The problem with that is that on 1v1 maps and close by ground 4 player positions is that the scouting harvester can get in before the wall is finished, and see the no orbital command, no gas, 3 rax and small worker count before you get your first marine out to shoo him away.
This is why you don't do 11rax 12rax 12rax :D.
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Well i still think 2 rax bunker preassure into expand is much more viable option(not to say you actually improve by going this kind of build).
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On May 24 2011 02:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:51 Havefa1th wrote:On May 24 2011 02:49 Ineffability~ wrote:
Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D The problem with that is that on 1v1 maps and close by ground 4 player positions is that the scouting harvester can get in before the wall is finished, and see the no orbital command, no gas, 3 rax and small worker count before you get your first marine out to shoo him away. This is why you don't do 11rax 12rax 12rax :D.
Even then an early scout (HuK style 9 probe for example) will get through it's inevitable. Plus I don't know the math, but an earlier rax could potentially delay a marine.
Edit: And Ineffability, this is definitely a cheese-build thread, not standard TvZ 
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so this is where this build came from...
freaked me out badly the first time, i had no idea scvs could kill a bunker, but after that... meh.
but why the low ground rax and depos? i don't get it, it's just as easy to hide the marines on the high ground (isn't it?) and it wouldn't make it such an obvious all-in.
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On May 24 2011 03:11 LuisFrost wrote:
so this is where this build came from...
freaked me out badly the first time, i had no idea scvs could kill a bunker, but after that... meh.
but why the low ground rax and depos? i don't get it, it's just as easy to hide the marines on the high ground (isn't it?) and it wouldn't make it such an obvious all-in.
See:
Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:49 Ineffability~ wrote:
Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D The problem with that is that on 1v1 maps and close by ground 4 player positions is that the scouting harvester can get in before the wall is finished, and see the no orbital command, no gas, 3 rax and small worker count before you get your first marine out to shoo him away.
If the scout gets in (which he can if you high wall with 2 rax) then you have no way to get him out until your first marine, which arrives after the signs of the all-in: low harvesters, 3 rax, no gas, no orbital immediately. Easy to hold if it's scouted.
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On May 24 2011 03:32 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 03:11 LuisFrost wrote:
so this is where this build came from...
freaked me out badly the first time, i had no idea scvs could kill a bunker, but after that... meh.
but why the low ground rax and depos? i don't get it, it's just as easy to hide the marines on the high ground (isn't it?) and it wouldn't make it such an obvious all-in. See: Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 02:49 Ineffability~ wrote:
Am I the only one doing 2 maka raxes instead of a bottom ramp wall off?
Spine crawlers dont really help, I just go for the main and leave the expo for later :D The problem with that is that on 1v1 maps and close by ground 4 player positions is that the scouting harvester can get in before the wall is finished, and see the no orbital command, no gas, 3 rax and small worker count before you get your first marine out to shoo him away. If the scout gets in (which he can if you high wall with 2 rax) then you have no way to get him out until your first marine, which arrives after the signs of the all-in: low harvesters, 3 rax, no gas, no orbital immediately. Easy to hold if it's scouted.
ooh, i get it know. so on low ground you can wall off with only one depot and a rax, right? i didn't know that. thanks.
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Cyto loss wasn't even well countered, you just played pretty poorly. No excuse to get hit by 80% of the scvs/marines by ONE bling, even on creep.
This ain't anything new tho. I mean 3rax timings may differ a bit, but they're all really hard to counter if you don't know exactly what's coming. There are some cheesers in GM who have done nothing but this since beta. I believe kellogz named guy is currently in EU GM and I've met him 5+ times in long intervals, never has it been other than scv marine 3rax allin.
I also massed a lot as T/P on semihigh masters EU past week and I've come across similar jizz 3-4 times in tvt and twice in pvt. Could be coincidence tho and not related to this topic, since as said it's not exactly new idea to do 3rax.
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EPT
