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On May 23 2011 03:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:
The whole point of the supply drop is to shave off seconds on the rush. You're supposed to push at 4 minutes with 4 marines and 14 scvs, with all 3 rax rallying in more marines. The 2 extra rax are supposed to be lifted to the low ground to make reinforcements quicker, too.
If you push at 4 minutes against Protoss, it is way way more powerful as they will not have enough units to defend and warpgates will be a long way away, especially if they aren't chronoboosting the research.
OP's build didn't have 14 scvs, didn't do a rax float, and he seemed to favor pushing out with about 9 marines total. Also, I'm thinking pushing with 4 marines is actually sub-optimal. I tried this and got slaughtered because 4 marines lack enough DPS to really tear up the probes quick enough. It bought the toss enough time to get a decent defensive line up and kill enough marines/scvs to severely diminish my attack. I'm thinking 8-9 marines with scv support might just be the "sweet spot" that trashes probes/drones quick enough to make this attack work.
On another note, fiddling with the build a bit:
10/11 depot
2 scvs
12/19 rax
12/19 rax
scv
13/19 rax (this one drops around 2:33ish to make sure you're still on timing)
4 marines
17/19 depot
2 marines
19/19 orbital command
3 more marines
calldown mule and attack
That ends up with 9 marines and 13 scvs, a mule called down as you push out, no supply drop, and is only about 4 seconds slower to 9 marines than the OP's build, for those of you who wish to do this -without- a supply drop.
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On May 23 2011 05:10 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 04:29 Joseph123 wrote:
Lost to that like 4-5 times already now i know who to flame and thank for wasting my time with this nonsense. After watching the replays where u win vs top players i tend to like Idra's words even more; "this game is a fuckin joke". I thought i was doing something wrong but since top players lose to that i see only one place where the problem is. We already know the word What league are you in?
Apparently not high enough to know that it's better to review a replay and adapt to a cheese than storm onto TL and scream "imba! imba!"
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On May 23 2011 05:12 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 05:10 holynorth wrote:On May 23 2011 04:29 Joseph123 wrote:
Lost to that like 4-5 times already now i know who to flame and thank for wasting my time with this nonsense. After watching the replays where u win vs top players i tend to like Idra's words even more; "this game is a fuckin joke". I thought i was doing something wrong but since top players lose to that i see only one place where the problem is. We already know the word What league are you in? Apparently not high enough to know that it's better to review a replay and adapt to a cheese than storm onto TL and scream "imba! imba!"
Yeah, I expected him to be a gold player losing to an awful version of this build the way he was crying about it.
My only problem with this build right now, is that people see the fast wall off and expect cheese, despite me using that same wall off for the expansion. So I guess I will keep using the wall off to expand behind instead of cheesing.
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why are people obsessing about the low ground wall off with this build? as far as i can see the only purpose of it is to shave a few seconds off the reinforce time. people seem to get this idea in there head that scouting a low ground barracks or similar would tell you this build is coming, or that low ground supply depots would stop this build working.
the op has outlined a streamlined version of the build, its not like it cant be done slightly differently ;/
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On May 23 2011 05:12 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 05:10 holynorth wrote:On May 23 2011 04:29 Joseph123 wrote:
Lost to that like 4-5 times already now i know who to flame and thank for wasting my time with this nonsense. After watching the replays where u win vs top players i tend to like Idra's words even more; "this game is a fuckin joke". I thought i was doing something wrong but since top players lose to that i see only one place where the problem is. We already know the word What league are you in? Apparently not high enough to know that it's better to review a replay and adapt to a cheese than storm onto TL and scream "imba! imba!"
~1100 masters eu right now
and obviously it isnt imba it just requires too low skill to pull off while to defend you need good knowledge about the build and how to defend it + good micro
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On May 23 2011 04:29 Joseph123 wrote:
Lost to that like 4-5 times already now i know who to flame and thank for wasting my time with this nonsense. After watching the replays where u win vs top players i tend to like Idra's words even more; "this game is a fuckin joke". I thought i was doing something wrong but since top players lose to that i see only one place where the problem is. We already know the word
It's funny because you seem to start by placing the blame on the OP when it's really just something that was inevitably going to be discovered because of design flaws in the game. You did, however, correct yourself. It was never a secret that early Rax units could overpower Gateway units (or that they scale better as the game progresses). And, it seems, that Terran players can crank many more of those units out earlier. It also doesn't seem out of the question that this cheese will continue to be refined into other variations (as has already been done in this thread). Eventually... I expect a major Terran overhaul or everyone will have to start playing Terran. I just hope we don't have to wait for the expansions to get the necessary overhaul.
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On May 23 2011 05:11 Ncinerate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:
The whole point of the supply drop is to shave off seconds on the rush. You're supposed to push at 4 minutes with 4 marines and 14 scvs, with all 3 rax rallying in more marines. The 2 extra rax are supposed to be lifted to the low ground to make reinforcements quicker, too.
If you push at 4 minutes against Protoss, it is way way more powerful as they will not have enough units to defend and warpgates will be a long way away, especially if they aren't chronoboosting the research. OP's build didn't have 14 scvs, didn't do a rax float, and he seemed to favor pushing out with about 9 marines total. Also, I'm thinking pushing with 4 marines is actually sub-optimal. I tried this and got slaughtered because 4 marines lack enough DPS to really tear up the probes quick enough. It bought the toss enough time to get a decent defensive line up and kill enough marines/scvs to severely diminish my attack. I'm thinking 8-9 marines with scv support might just be the "sweet spot" that trashes probes/drones quick enough to make this attack work. On another note, fiddling with the build a bit: 10/11 depot 2 scvs 12/19 rax 12/19 rax scv 13/19 rax (this one drops around 2:33ish to make sure you're still on timing) 4 marines 17/19 depot 2 marines 19/19 orbital command 3 more marines calldown mule and attack That ends up with 9 marines and 13 scvs, a mule called down as you push out, no supply drop, and is only about 4 seconds slower to 9 marines than the OP's build, for those of you who wish to do this -without- a supply drop.
Well, having practiced with and against tgPrax's build, I have to disagree. It pushes at 4 minutes with 4 marines and 3 more marines are rallying in behind them, so by the time you get to their base you have a sizable force. By pushing later you give your opponent way too much time to macro and respond. For example, your opponent can easily get too many sentries / stalkers up if you wait too long.
It is true that you can avoid the low ground wall off by making a second depot without really slowing down the build. To do this, just don't get an OC. This is much more all-in, but it also allows you to have 3 more SCVs.
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Hi Team Liquid,
My name is Puffles. I'm a longtime lurker, never venturing to post because I'm still pretty new at SC2 and don't have much to say. Though I wanted to thank the OP for giving me the heads up on this strategy. I had a rather humorous encounter with it today, which I thought fellow readers might enjoy. 
I saw the low-ground wall-off and supply drop and thought, wait a minute... this looks familiar. Fortunately I had just read this thread this morning. So I hurried and got banelings as fast I could, and then hid them out of sight atop my ramp.
I waited until the time was just right, and then...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Jocb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N1tqm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/noNEo.jpg)
I'm not for or against the strategy. I'm sure it has a lot of potential, ESPECIALLY if caught off-guard, though I had lings patrolling all over the place and saw it coming. What's more, I knew exactly what was to follow thanks to this post.
-Puffles
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wish protoss had such a unit, epic screenshot
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On May 22 2011 18:15 des0lar wrote:
Ok, to all the people saying this is easily scoutable because of rax + depot on low ground.
One thing I started doing is building the first rax and depot on high ground just like I would normally and building the other 2 raxes MakaRax style at my natural or somewhere, where my enemy is highly unlikely to scout.
Up until high masters no one will check your SCV count, so they assume it's a 1 rax expand if they see no gas.
Just for emphasis
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Well, having practiced with and against tgPrax's build, I have to disagree. It pushes at 4 minutes with 4 marines and 3 more marines are rallying in behind them, so by the time you get to their base you have a sizable force. By pushing later you give your opponent way too much time to macro and respond. For example, your opponent can easily get too many sentries / stalkers up if you wait too long.
It is true that you can avoid the low ground wall off by making a second depot without really slowing down the build. To do this, just don't get an OC. This is much more all-in, but it also allows you to have 3 more SCVs.
Well, I haven't experienced success leaving with 4 marines... I know more are rallied but it seemed like it was too little DPS to effectively stop the enemy from chewing up too many units before reinforcements arrived.
If, as you say, the emphasis needs to be on hitting early and hard however - how about a 2 rax+scv all-in instead?
8/11 depot
8/11 rax
2 scvs
10/19 rax
marine
scv
marine
13/19 orbital command
2 marines
call down the mule
15/19 depot
2 marines
scv
@ 4:00 you'll have 6 marines and 12 scvs, and can call down another mule as you push out.
Another 2 marines will pop 25 seconds later (8 out of your base by 4:30, still similar in power to the other builds), and you'll have enough cash for constant marine/scv production, repairing scvs, and building bunkers during the attack. That's what, 42 dps per second just from the marines? Enough to kill a probe every second or so, plus damage from scvs (potentially almost 40 a second, but reality is probably less).
I'm not saying that's ideal or anything, but if you're adamant about leaving early I see no real downside to doing this... You won't really notice a marine deficit until probably closer to 6:00 as the attack starts raging @ the enemy base from 4:30-5:30 with reinforcements...
Second rax goes down around 2:00, so it might not be quick enough to do the above-ramp 2 rax+depot walloff in time to stop a probe scout...
Or, to follow up on your second suggestion - MADNESS!:
9/11 depot
scv
10/19 rax
10/19 rax
10/19 rax
6 marines
The 6th marine will pop around 3:45ish, with enough cash to pump out one final round of marines from all 3 raxes if you choose to leave RIGHT THEN, so you'll have 10 scvs+6 marines leaving home at around 3:45-3:50 with 3 more marines coming in 25 seconds later, and 0 minerals.
If you wait instead, everything should be ready (9 marines+10 scvs, 19/19 supply) a hair after 4:00 with enough cash for 2 bunkers when you arrive or cash for some repair.
That's absolutely ball-out all-in with no chance of reinforcements or recovery, but man, that hits really fast....
I'll give it a shot later when I have some time to play.
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Great tactic!! ty for sharing this... i try'd it 10 times till now and fail 2 times well 1 time i failed at making OC so got supply blocked-.-' 2nd time the zerg scouted me when i pushed out =(
TY TY!
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On May 23 2011 07:35 des0lar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:15 des0lar wrote:
Ok, to all the people saying this is easily scoutable because of rax + depot on low ground.
One thing I started doing is building the first rax and depot on high ground just like I would normally and building the other 2 raxes MakaRax style at my natural or somewhere, where my enemy is highly unlikely to scout.
Up until high masters no one will check your SCV count, so they assume it's a 1 rax expand if they see no gas. Just for emphasis
Objection! I'm in plat but I check for worker counts!
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On May 23 2011 09:14 Ncinerate wrote:
Well, I haven't experienced success leaving with 4 marines... I know more are rallied but it seemed like it was too little DPS to effectively stop the enemy from chewing up too many units before reinforcements arrived.
If, as you say, the emphasis needs to be on hitting early and hard however - how about a 2 rax+scv all-in instead?
[...]
@ 4:00 you'll have 6 marines and 12 scvs, and can call down another mule as you push out.
Pretty bad mid-Gold player here, but build order analysis is one thing for which my training is useful.
I posted something that might be relevant to your interests on screddit yesterday (right in the middle of the mod drama), including basically the builds you suggest and some that seem to be stronger, but I'll try and explain it better here.
For a preview, here's a build for 7 marines at 4:00 (assuming perfect micro, so, really a few seconds later, but anyway):
8/11 depot (stop building SCVs)
8/19 rax
8/19 rax [one SCV can leave to scout then]
8/19 - 14/19: 6 marines
14/19: OC
14/19-17/19: 3 marines
At ~4:00, you'll have an OC, 7 marines, 8 SCVs, and 2 incoming marines. However, I think that the following build, with 9 marines at ~4:10 is even more interesting:
9/11 depot
10/19 rax (stop building SCVs) [one SCV can scout]
10/19 rax
10/19 rax
10/19-19/19 train 9 marines
19/19 Orbital Command
That gives you 9 marines and 10 SCVs at 4:10, but you'll have to wait until your troops start dying before training reinforcements.
Now, taking a step back, it seems to me there are two basic questions regarding the marine-scv rush:
* How does building an OC affect the marine count, if at all?
* At what times is it most interesting to push out?
I study operations research, and that's exactly the sort of things operations research is about So, I wrote a mathematical model for that build, and abused computing power to not only provide good builds, but also proofs of their optimality. Obviously, in a game as complex as SC, there's no such thing as a *best* build, so the objective was to produce as many marines as possible by the given time limit: each completed marine was worth 100 points, and each incoming marine was worth the amount of seconds already elapsed (e.g. 20 points if it's completed 5 seconds late). Since the process was fairly computation-heavy, the program stopped once it'd proved that if there existed a better-scoring build than the one it had found, it was at most 5 points better (i.e., that any better build only got the incoming marines a couple seconds earlier).
Also, in the interest of realism, all the builds assume one SCV was off scouting from 1:30 to 3:00.
With respect to the OC question, my program explored three choices:
* No constraint on the OC (it may or may not be built; in the end, it was never built)
* OC must at least be started by the time you push out
* OC must be completed by the time you push out
And, finally, the program computed these builds for each push timing from 3:00 (180 seconds) to 5:30 (330 seconds), in increments of 10 second. The results are summarised in the following graph.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KgmH8.png)
My interpretation is that having the OC completed before the push only hurts a bit (slightly slower reinforcements), except if you want to leave at 4:10 or at 5:00, in which case it costs you one marine. Eyeballing the builds shows that, basically, 4:10 hurts because you don't necessarily need a second supply depot yet, but do need the money, and, at 5:00 you want a third depot, and the OC hasn't fully paid off yet (iirc, I don't really care about a push at 5:00).
However, even in these cases, you can start upgrading your CC to an OC a bit before rushing, and it doesn't really penalize your DPS much, but you still get a mule to finance your SCV repairs and a potential recovery.
And now, that leaves the question of when should a Marine + SCV rush leave its base. Intuitively, I'd go for the 4:10 mark, with the OC started just before the push, but, again, I'm not a very strong player, and someone with a better grasp of the metagame would know better.
You can find and sanity-check the build orders in GraphStarcraft format here. Again, they were designed by a program for an idealised version of SC2, so you can assume that you'll be a couple seconds late.
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I've come up against this twice in the last few days. I have beat it both times with 1 base roaches, glad i went for pool before hatch, seems like the thing to do vs. terrans these days =)
The guy who's first in my diamond division uses this build every game, and is doing quite well with it.
What do you guys think about making a bottom ramp wall as in this build to fake your opponent out, then going quick banshees?
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I think it's funny how this trash stays on TL forums. I'm tired of this LET'S ALL CHEESE TO THE TOP nonsense. It's disgusting and takes away the fun of sc2. Unless of course you are one of those who find being an a-hole fun.
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I love how a protoss player offraced as terran and in a single day of laddering ended up #1 masters playing against tons of super high-ranked grandmasters players with only 1 build every single game.
And terran players try to pretend terran is hard to play LOL
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On May 23 2011 07:08 Puffles wrote:
Hi Team Liquid,
My name is Puffles. I'm a longtime lurker, never venturing to post because I'm still pretty new at SC2 and don't have much to say.
Your opponent is so bad that his marines didn't get to your base until about 6:30, your post basically has nothing to do with this thread.
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I really like the fact that you give counters AND give replays of you being countered. One question, why did you try to see if this would work.
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On May 23 2011 13:46 -orb- wrote:
I love how a protoss player offraced as terran and in a single day of laddering ended up #1 masters playing against tons of super high-ranked grandmasters players with only 1 build every single game.
And terran players try to pretend terran is hard to play LOL
LOL
Combat ex, optikzero, perfect, and countless other tosses 4 gated their way to GM. So basically, cool story bro, tell it to me again some time.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
