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Ok I tried this cheese a few times and it definitely has power. Particularly against Zerg and maybe Toss.
Toss for example will only have 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker, and a Sentry/Stalker out when this hits and the Terran will have 12 Marines and 12 SCV attacking. Even the best FF use won't save you from this.
Well only if the Toss goes standard build. Going something like 4 gate or 3 gate robo will likely kill you.
You must have Banelings by the 5 minute mark to save you from this or delay them long enough to get the Banelings and hope to god he does not focus fire the Banes.
I found it best to put the SCV on their own control group and the Marines in a second one. Just a-move the SCV and stutter step the Marines.
Against Roaches you must have all your drones with you as even Roaches will die to this attack. Not sure if Roaches will work though as even the guy who tried Roaches and he had 5 of them lost to this although he did not use his drones to help him.
So I guess the standard time to be ready for this is 5 minutes. If by 5 minutes you are not ready for it you are dead.
For the Terran player one thing you have to remember is to call down the Mule. Usually at the point you reach his ramp you have to call the Mule down.
Going to try some variants of this by experimenting with all repair scv, half repair scv, and 3 repair scv, to no repair scv and see which one has the most effect. I imagine having repair against Toss to be the most effective as they have the lowest dps early game of all the races.
Edit: Having 2 spines down by the time this hits also works as Zerg apparently. If you suspect this build you can plant spines down at 4:20 and see if he is moving out. If by 5:00 he is not you can cancel them saving you cash and you will likely know it is a fast expand or something else. You would have only spent 50 minerals for good insurance.
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I just saw a terran use this exact build against me. Cross spawn on Shakuras.
Watch the replay here.
I really don't see this working against 14 hatch, unless the zerg botches it. I have way too much larvae and drones. Engage with all drones + creep + queens + ling and I easily overpowered him. His micro was not amazing but neither was mine.
Of the downloads I watched, none of the people you played against responded as well as I did. All had major flaws with early game play (like losing scout, engaging with half drones instead of all, etc etc) This isn't to say that I am better than them, only that they did not respond properly in these games.
Doesn't seem too special to me. Like any cheese, scout early, keep scout alive, respond properly, win.
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On May 22 2011 15:37 FogofWar wrote:I just saw a terran use this exact build against me. Cross spawn on Shakuras. Watch the replay here.I really don't see this working against 14 hatch, unless the zerg botches it. I have way too much larvae and drones. Engage with all drones + creep + queens + ling and I easily overpowered him. His micro was not amazing but neither was mine. Of the downloads I watched, none of the people you played against responded as well as I did. All had major flaws with early game play (like losing scout, engaging with half drones instead of all, etc etc) This isn't to say that I am better than them, only that they did not respond properly in these games. Doesn't seem too special to me. Like any cheese, scout early, keep scout alive, respond properly, win.
Not to discredit your win but the Terrans micro and choices he made with his marines were horrible.
I watched the replay and the terran had the opprtunity to take out your second/ or walk around your spine crawlers and attack your main/spawning pool. He did neither. He instead stayed in open field the whole time and couldnt make up his mind delaying the inevitable 6 more lings that were to come to help your queens. Even still with your lings respawning and he even saw them he stayed in open field.. He did not Hug the wall or mineral line to reduce surface area he stayed in open feild on your creep.
Just bad micro by him gave you the win. Also at 2:20 in replay time your opponet selects all worker and botches them to not mine anything for a couple of seconds. He was also holding down buttons early game giving him an artifical APM of 700 lol.
Do you have any other replays with the opponet microing correctly? Because with correct micro the build attack is completely diffrent then the one you have just faced. I feel your opponet was not competent enough and executed the attack poorly although the build order was correct.
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This barely beat me on the ladder the other day without me ever playing against it before. It's really easily scouted by the supply drop and the below ground wall off and for all the people complaining, once you lose to it once, you'll never lose to it again if you respond properly.
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any kind of 1 base play from zerg destroys this
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Ok, to all the people saying this is easily scoutable because of rax + depot on low ground.
One thing I started doing is building the first rax and depot on high ground just like I would normally and building the other 2 raxes MakaRax style at my natural or somewhere, where my enemy is highly unlikely to scout.
Up until high masters no one will check your SCV count, so they assume it's a 1 rax expand if they see no gas.
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i think as Protoss i should be able to bypass that lowground wall-in via Pylon Cancel to confirm the all-in, at least if the first marine isn't out yet and kill the probe before that.
That why i think that a highground iWall-Off on 4 Players maps is preferable, you can still play normal, but if you know he isn't able to scout your base you can proceed with the all-in if you see him skipping units or playing greedy.
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On May 22 2011 18:47 freetgy wrote:
i think as Protoss i should be able to bypass that lowground wall-in via Pylon Cancel to confirm the all-in, at least if the first marine isn't out yet and kill the probe before that.
That why i think that a highground iWall-Off on 4 Players maps is preferable, you can still play normal, but if you know he isn't able to scout your base you can proceed with the all-in if you see him skipping units or playing greedy.
This statement is down right false.
You cannot glide a probe through enemy buildings.
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On May 22 2011 18:52 Geiko wrote:
You cannot glide a probe through enemy buildings.
don't be so sure about that, Probes can get up a ramp that is blocked by 3 pylons.
i see no difference by 1 bunker and a rax and since your building 3 Rax before your first marine this scout be easily scoutable.
your from EU?
lets test it
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On May 22 2011 18:54 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:52 Geiko wrote:
You cannot glide a probe through enemy buildings. don't be so sure about that 
I tested it. You can only glide probes through your own buildings. I tested this while trying to glide a probe through a 3 pylon wall in cannon rush on xnc.
If I put one of my pylons, I could glide through it. If my enemy put all three of his pylons, my probe just got stuck and wouldn't go through.
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On May 22 2011 18:55 Geiko wrote:
I tested it. You can only glide probes through your own buildings. I tested this while trying to glide a probe through a 3 pylon wall in cannon rush on xnc.
If I put one of my pylons, I could glide through it. If my enemy put all three of his pylons, my probe just got stuck and wouldn't go through.
damn it 8/
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someone tried to do this to me on the ladder today and i didnt know about the build, but in tvt when i see low ground wall i just threw up a bunker immediately and easily held with repair....
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i had trouble the first 4 times it hit me but it's pretty easy to deal with once you get the hang of it... (i play random so... had to learn 3 diff race's responses - trial and error :o)
I suspect terrans will stop doing this in about a week.
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Its a very strong build. I had nothing but success with it on the ladder vs mid/low master league players.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/2161
Here's a replay of me effectively faking this rush. I'm not that great, but he walks right into the trap. It worked almost a little too well, it was strange. I just came up with the idea before this game and not only did it work, but he lets me know in chat that the trick is working by commenting on it.
I was initially going for a fast banshee, but I got interrupted and and had to retaliate. I get capped at one point, and my mechanics are far from perfect, but the basics are there.
Don't be fooled silver/golds
On May 16 2011 10:31 Geiko wrote:
Yeah, I think as a rule we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in. However, it's hard to know what to do, Terran could just about be doing anything : double gas tech, 1 rax FE, etc... If you commit too much to stopping a push that is not coming, it can put you behind in the mid game.
This comment has helped me trick quite a few people; it being on the first page of the thread and all.
When I first learned about this rush I had the words "we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in" resonating in my head. I figured other players would as well, despite the warning that closely follows.
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On May 22 2011 16:09 BeastofManju wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:37 FogofWar wrote:I just saw a terran use this exact build against me. Cross spawn on Shakuras. Watch the replay here.I really don't see this working against 14 hatch, unless the zerg botches it. I have way too much larvae and drones. Engage with all drones + creep + queens + ling and I easily overpowered him. His micro was not amazing but neither was mine. Of the downloads I watched, none of the people you played against responded as well as I did. All had major flaws with early game play (like losing scout, engaging with half drones instead of all, etc etc) This isn't to say that I am better than them, only that they did not respond properly in these games. Doesn't seem too special to me. Like any cheese, scout early, keep scout alive, respond properly, win. Not to discredit your win but the Terrans micro and choices he made with his marines were horrible. I watched the replay and the terran had the opprtunity to take out your second/ or walk around your spine crawlers and attack your main/spawning pool. He did neither. He instead stayed in open field the whole time and couldnt make up his mind delaying the inevitable 6 more lings that were to come to help your queens. Even still with your lings respawning and he even saw them he stayed in open field.. He did not Hug the wall or mineral line to reduce surface area he stayed in open feild on your creep. Just bad micro by him gave you the win. Also at 2:20 in replay time your opponet selects all worker and botches them to not mine anything for a couple of seconds. He was also holding down buttons early game giving him an artifical APM of 700 lol. Do you have any other replays with the opponet microing correctly? Because with correct micro the build attack is completely diffrent then the one you have just faced. I feel your opponet was not competent enough and executed the attack poorly although the build order was correct.
Are you saying that the build is unstoppable if you go hatchery first?
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On May 22 2011 20:16 Shadyf0o wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/2161Here's a replay of me effectively faking this rush. I'm not that great, but he walks right into the trap. It worked almost a little too well, it was strange. I just came up with the idea before this game and not only did it work, but he lets me know in chat that the trick is working by commenting on it. I was initially going for a fast banshee, but I got interrupted and and had to retaliate. I get capped at one point, and my mechanics are far from perfect, but the basics are there. Don't be fooled silver/golds Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:31 Geiko wrote:
Yeah, I think as a rule we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in. However, it's hard to know what to do, Terran could just about be doing anything : double gas tech, 1 rax FE, etc... If you commit too much to stopping a push that is not coming, it can put you behind in the mid game. This comment has helped me trick quite a few people; it being on the first page of the thread and all. When I first learned about this rush I had the words "we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in" resonating in my head. I figured other players would as well, despite the warning that closely follows.
That's what worries me about this bottom of ramp walling business. It seems impossible to scout whether it's an all-in or a fake. Oh well, the real test will be how well the pros deal with it.
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On May 22 2011 21:03 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 20:16 Shadyf0o wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/2161Here's a replay of me effectively faking this rush. I'm not that great, but he walks right into the trap. It worked almost a little too well, it was strange. I just came up with the idea before this game and not only did it work, but he lets me know in chat that the trick is working by commenting on it. I was initially going for a fast banshee, but I got interrupted and and had to retaliate. I get capped at one point, and my mechanics are far from perfect, but the basics are there. Don't be fooled silver/golds On May 16 2011 10:31 Geiko wrote:
Yeah, I think as a rule we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in. However, it's hard to know what to do, Terran could just about be doing anything : double gas tech, 1 rax FE, etc... If you commit too much to stopping a push that is not coming, it can put you behind in the mid game. This comment has helped me trick quite a few people; it being on the first page of the thread and all. When I first learned about this rush I had the words "we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in" resonating in my head. I figured other players would as well, despite the warning that closely follows. That's what worries me about this bottom of ramp walling business. It seems impossible to scout whether it's an all-in or a fake. Oh well, the real test will be how well the pros deal with it.
The low-ground wall is your queue to play more safely. Once you see the supplydrop on the depot you know almost for sure that hes gonna all-in. Play overly defensive, if he doesnt kill you hes fked.
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Hey guys, I don't want to sound like a troll, but imo this strat might get you to diamond/master but sadly won't keep you there.
I've even tried this out myself a couple times (I'm a Plat toss player) and found it quite rewarding to get those extra 50 points to push me up a couple rankings. However, if I continue to do this, I will get to a point where I can't actually beat the people I play with a proper game.
Another thing I noticed today when someone tried to do this to me is that if scouted 1/2 way across the map, it's rather simple to hold off. A couple sentries and some stalkers to FF and pick off the marines gave me a fun win.
I'm glad that the OP got so far with this, but since so many people are now trying it, it's becoming one of those things that you almost expect to happen. So by all means continue using just this one strat, but please consider the possible consequences.
Just my 2 cents worth :D
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EPT
