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On May 22 2011 06:33 BeastofManju wrote:
Edit: he already posted the youtube.
But I have been trying to defend this as a zerg its very hard. A blind spine might perhaps be the awnser but as of now working on provideing some replays of my own on how to stop soundly but so far I dont have anything.
If you 15 hatch 15 pool you can pull all queens and drones and target down the marines. If you scouted the wall off it would help to put down one or two spine crawlers, but those aren't entirely necessary. With good marine and scv micro this build is difficult to stop, but by no means is it a cakewalk. If you run your drones into scvs, you will lose. Surround with drones and you have quite a good chance. You can even just abandon the natural for a brief moment to stall, allowing you to get lings.
The proper time with this build to push is 4 minutes, which will mean only 4-6 marines by the time they get to your base. If they delay the push, it gives you too much of an economic advantage and it shouldn't be close at all, even though they will have more marines.
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On May 22 2011 04:15 qualzug wrote:
Who calls them 'racks'?
Also has anyone tried the 7RR against this? You should have 7 roaches at about ~5min
It's very hard to fend off even with roaches. If you don't micro properly and let your roaches attack his scvs instead of marines, it's game over. You invested a lot of money in roaches and you can't recover.
Also, the range on roaches can't range marines that well so yeah. The best thing you can do is scout the rax and supply on bottom, get up a few spine crawlers (like someone else had said before: shift attack the marines with your spine crawlers can really make a difference) and drone up. It's an all in so once you handle it, you get a free win.
Don't get me wrong though, this cheese is very hard to stop if not scouted and reacted properly.
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Some guy just tried this on me TvT, cross-map Metalopolis.
Unfortunately, he used the supply call-down on the depot at the bottom of the ramp. Threw down two bunkers (going two rax gasless FE) and sent 5 scv's to the front. Didn't lose a single unit, bar my scouting SCV when he rushed out.
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on close positions Metalopolis is this impossible to handle a toss without blindly countering it with a forge or somewhat?
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Number of times i have faced this today = 5
Number of times it didnt work = 5
High Diamond Zerg....
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On May 22 2011 07:50 TheXenocide1 wrote:
Number of times i have faced this today = 5
Number of times it didnt work = 5
High Diamond Zerg....
The only way one can stop this is either overmaking lings or blindly making banelings. And if its close position meta and you just made maybe 2-3 too many drones you've automatically lost.
and if he sees you overmaking lings, he should just stay back and play a macro game because you're already behind.
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France12908 Posts
On May 22 2011 07:47 Abusion wrote:
on close positions Metalopolis is this impossible to handle a toss without blindly countering it with a forge or somewhat?
On close pos meta it's harder to counter but if you scout early the wall on the bottom, you'll have to do a decent simcity (make it a bit hard to reach tje mineral line, several pylons for ur buildings) make a 2nd gateway early and chrono as many stalkers as possible. Then it will come down to stall/micro.
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Me and some friends have been trying this out tonight as toss, the best answer we've found is to go for a fast sentrie after zealot if you see the low ground stuff and then get another gate and another sentrie as fast as possible. Depending on the map it might be wise to throw down 3 pylons at the top of the ramp as you build stalkers. Once he is up your ramp, try to focus the marines with everything you've got.
Cheers
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On May 22 2011 07:58 ryan1894 wrote:
The only way one can stop this is either overmaking lings or blindly making banelings. And if its close position meta and you just made maybe 2-3 too many drones you've automatically lost.
and if he sees you overmaking lings, he should just stay back and play a macro game because you're already behind.
If you scout a barracks on low ground, then make perhaps 8 zerglings and four banelings. If hatch first, then just throw down three spine crawlers. Oooh. What a terror, having lost three-six larva and a few hundred minerals (or some gas) while having equal or more workers (equal only if you threw down a 12-pool and then made no new workers, WTF?) and probably additional base.
Now that the community knows about this build, it's lost much of it's sting: its inability to be scouted and the ensuing surprise.
Of course, a low-ground barracks could also be a clever ploy to ... uh ... make banshees? Or something? While hoping that your opponent doesn't try to bust you after your Marine/SCV attack doesn't show? In either case, the cheesing Terran has relatively few workers and has wasted a MULE for a supply call down.
So, yes, this cheese may still be very effective against Protoss, as it would require cannons or extensive stalker micro to defeat, but against either zerg or Terran, a minor investment in base defenses, which doesn't take a bite out of either's economy, as both have huge mineral surpluses (hilarious drone count for Zerg, MULEs for Terran).
Having said that, I do respect the OP for pulling this trick out of his pocket and stomping some GMs with it via surprise. You don't get that sort of guile from nowhere.
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I haven't encountered this build yet, but ty for informing me. I will be on red alert when I see a walloff @ bottom
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Thanks for this post and for the replays beating it. I was just rolled over by this build and was going post asking for help.
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While i don`t think the build itself is overpowered, i think the walling off at the bottom of the ramp should be fixed. Terran can just do 100 different things with it and you just can`t scout in time. I play terran btw.
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On May 22 2011 09:17 PuercoPop wrote:
Thanks for this post and for the replays beating it. I was just rolled over by this build and was going post asking for help.
I feel as if the the Zerg replay beating the build didn't really show it justice. At all times the overlord was spoting the all in by only seeing there was 12 scv's to his 16 or so drones. He was preparing for it vividly. I also feel that with better micro from the terran player (i.e splitting the marines vs the banes.) he still would have easily won.
Do you have any more zerg replays of the 3 rax all-in being thwarted from zergs?
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On May 22 2011 09:54 BeastofManju wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:17 PuercoPop wrote:
Thanks for this post and for the replays beating it. I was just rolled over by this build and was going post asking for help. I feel as if the the Zerg replay beating the build didn't really show it justice. At all times the overlord was spoting the all in by only seeing there was 12 scv's to his 16 or so drones. He was preparing for it vividly. I also feel that with better micro from the terran player (i.e splitting the marines vs the banes.) he still would have easily won. Do you have any more zerg replays of the 3 rax all-in being thwarted from zergs?
If you 15 hatch there is NO possible way to stop it if you play standard. If you start massing blind lings and sac your expo, maybe.
The proper way to not lose to this is 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch. The standard zerg safe opening. Your lings should arrive at the terran base (zel naga) no more then 5-10 secs after the supply was droped. This should be an instant indicator to start preparing for this all in. At this point you cancel your expo. Throw down 3 spines near your hatchery and start another queen. Get 1 overlord and start massing zerglings. No workers in gas other then for the first 100 gas for speed otherwise you have wasted resources which are needed to hold this off. Hotkey your drones and just buy time for more zerglings untill you know you can crush his marine SCV force and once you do you win the game at that point.
Some timings on zel naga
Spine crawlers finish about 10 secs after the marines gets to your base
Speed should finish right as the marine come to your base.
Second queen will have have poped 10-15 secs before the all in comes.
Reactive baneling nest only works if you can delay push by 25-30 secs. (If you keep 1 drone in gas, you dont get 1 spine and make a baneling nest instead.)
There is no way to stop this build without scouting only because it cuts SCV's for marine production.
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Well, now every second Terran I verse is doing this build. Being a Zerg, I need to scout it. I see rax and depot at the bottom of the ramp and I'm cutting drones and getting spines, I feel like they can just destroy me if they are only deciding to go banshees, if you sacrifice an overlord you are capped and can't make anything, the ovl comes in too late.
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The best way to beat this is 15 hatch, 15 pool. I've played both sides of this build and it's only strong if the zerg has bad micro or mechanics.
Here's a video of a recent game on ladder against it:
http://www.justin.tv/ooooophidian/b/286375702
I by no means micro perfectly, but still hold it off with 15 drones, 2 hatches, and 3 queens left over. I didn't even remember to drone scout and never knew what he had coming, my only reaction was when my natural overlord spotted the push.
The build is a lot stronger against Protoss, as a standard P opener will have trouble. Chronoing out stalkers and microing well is the simplest way for standard builds. With the recent patch on sentry time it's also possible to chrono out a sentry in enough time.
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On May 22 2011 10:06 Mafs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:54 BeastofManju wrote:On May 22 2011 09:17 PuercoPop wrote:
Thanks for this post and for the replays beating it. I was just rolled over by this build and was going post asking for help. I feel as if the the Zerg replay beating the build didn't really show it justice. At all times the overlord was spoting the all in by only seeing there was 12 scv's to his 16 or so drones. He was preparing for it vividly. I also feel that with better micro from the terran player (i.e splitting the marines vs the banes.) he still would have easily won. Do you have any more zerg replays of the 3 rax all-in being thwarted from zergs? If you 15 hatch there is NO possible way to stop it if you play standard. If you start massing blind lings and sac your expo, maybe. The proper way to not lose to this is 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch. The standard zerg safe opening. Your lings should arrive at the terran base (zel naga) no more then 5-10 secs after the supply was droped. This should be an instant indicator to start preparing for this all in. At this point you cancel your expo. Throw down 3 spines near your hatchery and start another queen. Get 1 overlord and start massing zerglings. No workers in gas other then for the first 100 gas for speed otherwise you have wasted resources which are needed to hold this off. Hotkey your drones and just buy time for more zerglings untill you know you can crush his marine SCV force and once you do you win the game at that point. Some timings on zel naga Spine crawlers finish about 10 secs after the marines gets to your base Speed should finish right as the marine come to your base. Second queen will have have poped 10-15 secs before the all in comes. Reactive baneling nest only works if you can delay push by 25-30 secs. (If you keep 1 drone in gas, you dont get 1 spine and make a baneling nest instead.) There is no way to stop this build without scouting only because it cuts SCV's for marine production.
Just plain wrong. Don't make declarative general statements like that.
My zerg practice partner was able to counter it 100% after 4-5 attempts going 15 hatch, and full macro (2 lings, no bling nest) until the push moves out by:
1) 2 queens build
2) 1 blind sunken (just good practice current metagame)
3) Speed up on time (finished before 5:10)
4) 1 pair of lings (scouting)
He loses 1 base, but mops up the force and ends up ahead.
Note he did not need to do anything other than his standard ZvT macro opening until the push is detected at 4:40ish.
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shouldnt wall off on the bottom if you're gonna do this, it just gives it away given how popular it is now. but thats just my opinion.
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what do you do if they have a few crawlers up when you get there? i know as zerg i always crawler up on my nat.
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Some statistics for you:
I was a 879 Master Protoss when I started doing this strat on ladder.
I had a 47,6% sucess rate with it over 21 games (10 wins 11 losses).
It brought me up to 909 points, down to 840 then up to 876 (about where I started).
My losses were to Terrans who bunkered and repaired with all SCV:s, Zergs who made 3+ Spine Crawlers in time, Zergs who didn't expand, or Protoss who did Stalker + pylon block or Stalker + Sentry chrono.
The below ramp-wall was a dead give-away for most that it was a Marine SCV all-in. They made this clear in chat  Often attached were obscenities of a violent nature.
My execution was even better than Geiko's, I left 1 SCV to mine and then put all the attacking SCV:s on auto-repair and they used up the SCV + mule minerals to mass repair themselves (mass heal) while also attacking (attack move does both for auto-repair workers - some heal, others fight). This made them able to tank much, MUCH more for the Marines. If you don't leave an SCV, you won't have these minerals, and if a repairing SCV on attack-move doesn't have minerals to repair, he will instead attack. So on attack-move, SCV:s in a group are healing medics if they have minerals, and if they don't, they pretend they are Zealots.
So leave a SCV to mine, and time it so that you have 27/27 (and no excess cued up) and can call down the mule exactly before attacking their base - the mule's first mineral yield will actually fund a LOT of healing for the SCV:s in the first important seconds of you big battle. This can make a huge difference.
But sadly, the below-ramp wall is a dead giveaway and most people at high Masters can defend it if they know it's coming.
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EPT
