EPT[D]PvZ Archon build - Page 8
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SwirlQ
United States148 Posts
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
I really can't get this build to work. Its like, you are going straight for the latest of latest of tech, and the correct zerg response is just to make drones since until you have an archon force there is literally nothing you can do to harass Once zerg has that econ, since all units are "ok" against archons (infestor roach EG) it doesn't really matter just as long as he attacks you at somepoint with his 3 base econ | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
+1 and +2 attack are really nice, +3 not so important since a +1 advantage in attack vs carapace (or a -1 disadvantage) is where the swing in # of shots to kill comes in. So chrono the shizz out of +1, get +2 pretty fast to be ready for his +1 carapace, but research storm or get an almost-archon or something instead of rushing +3. each saturated base supports roughly 5 gateways if you don't also tech/expand. Similar to zealot/sentry, just templar cost more gas and have WAY longer cooldowns. I find it nice to have an even number of gateways to make it less likely that you warp in 3/5/7 templar when you have no use for a HT and want only archons/zlots. Get a robo. you need a couple obs for scouting, creep-killing, and dealing with burrow. I also see GREAT potential for warp prisms with this style (elevator into the main and warp in 34986798 units if he has a ton of spines?), and immortals might be better than usual since he can't make lings to kill them (immortal drop killing the queen and morphing spire? LOL^^) Most importantly, and for many reasons, I advocate attacking ASAP and continuing to attack rather than massing up and a-moving at 200/200. Here come the reasons: -If you DON'T attack asap, you miss a chance to totally pwn him if his early game built a bunch of useless zerglings. -chargelot/archon does AWESOME in small numbers, good in medium numbers, and very meh in large numbers. This is vs any unit comp I can think of. -Infestors get more annoying the longer the game goes and the bigger armies get because: there are more of them meaning harder to feedback before they cast, they have more energy and their upgrades have been researched, NP hurts more because you have more clumped zealots for your archons to murder, and fungal works better the more units you have. Think about what will happen when fungal or NP happens to an army of 2 archons, 10 zlots. Then think about what happens vs an army of 6 archons, 30 zlots. Try it and you'll see ^_^ -banelings could be decent vs a HUGE army, but you will LOL if he uses them vs small armies. It takes roughly the same number of banes to evaporate a large army as it does to evaporate a small army. Also it's much easier to spread/retreat your zealots in small numbers than it is in big numbers. -With pure gateways you reinforce anywhere on the map really really fast, so you're able to continuously force battle with small armies, and can move in for the kill if he slips up. -It's really easy to retreat a single low-shield archon in a small-army fight. It's impossible when there are 30 roach/hydras focus firing him down. -Constant fighting with small armies is FUN! Also exciting for observers. Maxing out a big ball and moving out for one decisive battle is boring and repetitive. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On May 16 2011 08:59 Saracen wrote: Hey, I have a question, OP: How does this build fare against hydra heavy compositions? full hydra is destroyed by this comp, full roach are easy to deal if you have an observer. mid roach mid hydra or low roach heavy hydra, can end both ways, it is very dependent on positioning, fighting on creep, your surround, all archons hitting, etc... but this on mid suply armies, low suply i think archons/zealots > roach/hydra, and high suply archon/zealot < roach/hydra this becomes even worse if the zerg uses some banelings to kill the mass zealot, and if you let zerg get some broodlords it's gg unless you are ahead. Obs: after playing some times with my friend, it looks like if you have chargelots and not that much archons, they work better if you put then behind/together the archons, this happens cus if you put your chargelots in front of the archons, they start charging and die before the archons start to hit | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On May 16 2011 09:24 Keilah wrote: my 2,3,4 and 5 cents: +1 and +2 attack are really nice, +3 not so important since a +1 advantage in attack vs carapace (or a -1 disadvantage) is where the swing in # of shots to kill comes in. So chrono the shizz out of +1, get +2 pretty fast to be ready for his +1 carapace, but research storm or get an almost-archon or something instead of rushing +3. each saturated base supports roughly 5 gateways if you don't also tech/expand. Similar to zealot/sentry, just templar cost more gas and have WAY longer cooldowns. I find it nice to have an even number of gateways to make it less likely that you warp in 3/5/7 templar when you have no use for a HT and want only archons/zlots. Get a robo. you need a couple obs for scouting, creep-killing, and dealing with burrow. I also see GREAT potential for warp prisms with this style (elevator into the main and warp in 34986798 units if he has a ton of spines?), and immortals might be better than usual since he can't make lings to kill them (immortal drop killing the queen and morphing spire? LOL^^) Most importantly, and for many reasons, I advocate attacking ASAP and continuing to attack rather than massing up and a-moving at 200/200. Here come the reasons: -If you DON'T attack asap, you miss a chance to totally pwn him if his early game built a bunch of useless zerglings. -chargelot/archon does AWESOME in small numbers, good in medium numbers, and very meh in large numbers. This is vs any unit comp I can think of. -Infestors get more annoying the longer the game goes and the bigger armies get because: there are more of them meaning harder to feedback before they cast, they have more energy and their upgrades have been researched, NP hurts more because you have more clumped zealots for your archons to murder, and fungal works better the more units you have. Think about what will happen when fungal or NP happens to an army of 2 archons, 10 zlots. Then think about what happens vs an army of 6 archons, 30 zlots. Try it and you'll see ^_^ -banelings could be decent vs a HUGE army, but you will LOL if he uses them vs small armies. It takes roughly the same number of banes to evaporate a large army as it does to evaporate a small army. Also it's much easier to spread/retreat your zealots in small numbers than it is in big numbers. -With pure gateways you reinforce anywhere on the map really really fast, so you're able to continuously force battle with small armies, and can move in for the kill if he slips up. -It's really easy to retreat a single low-shield archon in a small-army fight. It's impossible when there are 30 roach/hydras focus firing him down. -Constant fighting with small armies is FUN! Also exciting for observers. Maxing out a big ball and moving out for one decisive battle is boring and repetitive. agree 100%, I like trading 1 archon and 7 zealots for 7 stalkers, when zealots start to mass (20 +-) | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
A few things come to mind. First, dts can be killed with banelings without detection ... I am starting to just throw up a baneling nest every ZvP because being able to convert 3-4 lings to kill off dt harass (just while I get spores or an overseer) can be worth it. Second, in line with point 1 and perhaps more importantly, charge zealots hate banelings, especially with a couple attack upgrades. They charge and boom, the charge means the zealots are nice and clumped and much harder to micro away (unless they are on hold position all the time a few banes will destroy a bunch of them). maybe better with infestors ... not sure ... Now I have successfully combined this with roaches at my lowly level because unsupported archons will eventually die to an overwhelming number of roaches given how efficiently banes can clear out chargelots. This may not be the case at higher levels. At higher levels it looks to me like you would need a) some unit that can deal with archons, hydras or infestors with NP would do well as could broodlords and b) something to get between the chargelots and the hydras/infestors, probably either roaches or banelings would be best here as lings and ultras get ripped apart by zealots. Has anyone tried baneling/hydra ? It seems like a very fragile composition but has insane damage so might do the trick. It also has the advantage of mauling blink stalkers so if you scout a twilight and are unsure it makes for a good transition (ling/hydra into bling/hydra). Note that also in my (limited) experience fast templar/dt builds end up vulnerable to roach/ling pressure or all in but that could just be at my level. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
EDIT: although I suppose, psi storm now beats the poop out of your entire army, so... ? | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On May 16 2011 08:59 Saracen wrote: Hey, I have a question, OP: How does this build fare against hydra heavy compositions? What, you mean you're an actual person? I thought you were a bot that bans people and closes threads. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On May 16 2011 10:37 iamke55 wrote: What, you mean you're an actual person? I thought you were a bot that bans people and closes threads. Does not compute. Not a strategy-related post. >> ban -forum -time 17 7d iamke55 Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. ^C >> | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On May 16 2011 06:21 iamke55 wrote: If there are infestors then you have to keep some high templars around for feedback. Worked pretty well for me so far! For the person questioning the 9 gateways, you start floating a ton of minerals if you only have 8. I really hope that this becomes standard PvZ and roach/infestor becomes standard ZvP as well, because then you get some really cool micro dynamics. Roach/Infestor > protoss army, but protoss army > roaches and high templars > infestors. It's sort of like ZvT, where mutas/lings > tanks > banelings > marines > mutas/lings and it comes down to timing, reinforcement and control as opposed to the "well you let me get this army so now I 1a you" of the previous standard (which doesn't work anymore from what I've seen, infestors are good and so are banelings) I'm gonna look through the replays and think about this new composition :D | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13405 Posts
On May 16 2011 11:10 Saracen wrote: Does not compute. Not a strategy-related post. >> ban -forum -time 17 7d iamke55 Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. Banning user iamke55 from forum 17 for 7 day(s)... Error: cannot ban user. ^C >> loving the banter lol OT: I will try this out tomorrow when I get a chance to play without being half asleep lol Ill post back with some initial impressions and in a week or so with some more time will add to my thoughts Though I do feel that this will be especially good if there is a Zerg who goes hatch first late gas so long as you go for DT expand since you can really punish the Zerg and not be behind with the option for defensive DTs pretty early to help you prepare for HTs and storm once you get a third up | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
On May 16 2011 06:21 iamke55 wrote: If there are infestors then you have to keep some high templars around for feedback. Worked pretty well for me so far! For the person questioning the 9 gateways, you start floating a ton of minerals if you only have 8. There was a guy who did 1 base Zealot + Archon and he needed 5-6 Gateways in order to spend his money. Archons really eat into production time. You can maybe make 2 Archons a minute on 2 bases. 9 might even be too few but maybe with really good macro it might work out. You really can't get anything else that costs gas though. If you lose those Archons it might be gg as they are REALLY expensive. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 16 2011 16:11 AzureD wrote: If you lose those Archons it might be gg as they are REALLY expensive. Same applies if you lose your sentries or Colossi, though. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
There are a few details that I'd like to add since I spent a couple hours experimenting in unit testers. First, this strat IMO works better by adopting a Zerg-like mentality. Zealots only cost minerals, so you can spawn them in huge amounts as a throw-away unit. Positionning is also counter-intuitive: as a Protoss, so far, we've wanted to engage in chokes and narrow areas. But to maximize efficiency with this strat, you should actually engage in open-space ! Also, you shouldn't stay on the defensive: playing sim-city in your natural can actually work against you if you get attacked. I'd recommend positionning your army in front of the natural, below the choke/ramp. I've tested many zerg compositions of zerglings/roaches/hydras ( pure hydras, lings/hydras, lings/roaches, pure roaches, roaches/hydras in various % and lings/roaches/hydras ) and came to the conclusion that a protoss army made of chargelots/templars/archons always wins, assuming engaging in open-space and +1 difference in upgrades (under less favorable conditions, it becomes a micro battle). I'm not sure about bannelings/infestors though, I guess they'd counter it pretty well. I think this strat works better by dropping double-forge and chrono-boosting upgrades asap. I'm not convinced about going DTs, IMO dropping a templar archive and starting to warp templars/archons (without storm yet) asap is better, and add storm later. The timing attack can come as soon as the +2 upgrades arrive. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13405 Posts
I played a Zerg who decided to go for a baneling bust after I denied a few spore crawlers to build/burrow (I committed to the DT harass with about 5 of them to do this). I was able to create a choke with some high hp buildings and place Archons in hold position in and behind the wall. The 30 or so banelings never broke my front thanks to the massive amount of shields archons have and their size negating most splash damage and the fact they dont suffer bonus damage from the banelings. All in all loving the composition and feedback/storm thrown in is super useful as well | ||
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Kaiz
United States17 Posts
I've played a few more games against the zealot archon comp as Zerg and having a few sets of burrowed banelings between your base and the Protoss' base seems to shut this down pretty well since most Protoss are too focused on spending every bit of gas on getting more Archons. It's not a very solid counter as obviously any detection will shut it down, but I think a Protoss will need to start getting an observer before they push out as this build becomes more popular and more easily recognized (as if it isn't used enough already). | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
I made a robo for observers because otherwise you finish with creep in your main, plus burrowed roaches can be annoying. I have the feeling it works mostly because zerg are not used to it, though. Give them some time and they will hard counter the heck out of it. Of the turtling-no scouting version, at least, which is why we need to find an opener and mid-game that can transition into it. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Game 1: you stopped upgrading at 2/0, which confirms my idea that this build requires that you stay ahead by at least a +1 margin. Also, the fights around your B3 weren't in open-space, and a lot of your units weren't engaging at all. Had it been in open space with better upgrades, you'd have rolled over that zerg Also, not a fan of merging archons from dts ( from hts will give more zealots ).Game 2: similar problem, same upgrade level and you didn't have charge fast enough. I'm not even speaking of the detection problem - we must clearly incorporate a robo in the build to avoid this. Your macro wasn't as good as the other games, and his switch to mutas annoyed you. I guess we should keep an archon or a templar+storm ready in every base, at the very least. Basically, I don't think it invalidates the build, but it proves some adjustments are necessary to become stronger ( and I still stand by my idea that double-forge upgrades are required, even if it means 1 or 2 less archons ). Game 3: the game was lost when he killed so many probes in his harass IMO. But you were already late on upgrades (2/0 when he had 2/2) so it wasn't going too well anyway. The brood lords were just the cheery on the cake.. By the way, all those replays you posted are macro games on big maps. Have you tried the build on smaller maps ? What about Xel'naga caverns for example ? | ||
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