|
On May 19 2011 09:24 elitesniper420 wrote:
so OP locked my thread because apparently I said I "outplayed" my opponent. Anyway, since that thread is locked I'll ask here. What is the best composition to deal with this? The answers I've heard are cracklings and hydralisks but both of those are hard countered by high templars.
Since this playstyle is so utterly passive you can get to infestor/baneling/roach once you ascertain they dont have some massive air switch coming. Until this build removes the reliance on zealots somehow im convinced it can't be a consistent standard. I've used it alot with mostly terrible results so I dont think ill be getting archons the same way as the OP. If you get on 3 bases or especially on a 4th I think its just awesome as a switch to go into archon, but once your opponent knows what you're doing you find yourself in a bad position... at least a worse position than with a standard army.
|
Don't let that guy make me look like an unfair mod... I closed his thread because it wasn't tagged properly as required by the Purge thread. Normally I would just rename it and be done but his balance complaint in the replay didn't make me want to do him any favors.
|
On May 19 2011 09:42 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:24 elitesniper420 wrote:
so OP locked my thread because apparently I said I "outplayed" my opponent. Anyway, since that thread is locked I'll ask here. What is the best composition to deal with this? The answers I've heard are cracklings and hydralisks but both of those are hard countered by high templars. Since this playstyle is so utterly passive you can get to infestor/baneling/roach once you ascertain they dont have some massive air switch coming. Until this build removes the reliance on zealots somehow im convinced it can't be a consistent standard. I've used it alot with mostly terrible results so I dont think ill be getting archons the same way as the OP. If you get on 3 bases or especially on a 4th I think its just awesome as a switch to go into archon, but once your opponent knows what you're doing you find yourself in a bad position... at least a worse position than with a standard army.
roach/infestor definitely feels like the best choice right now. Perhaps banelings too but in a late game situation it's incredibly easy to get HT. I feel like Roaches are the only viable unit that are able to absorb the damage from the composition (chargelots destroy hydralisks), and therefore it's the core. Meanwhile, what's stopping the roaches from winning outright are the Archons so Neural Parasite would benefit greatly.
|
On May 19 2011 09:42 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:24 elitesniper420 wrote:
so OP locked my thread because apparently I said I "outplayed" my opponent. Anyway, since that thread is locked I'll ask here. What is the best composition to deal with this? The answers I've heard are cracklings and hydralisks but both of those are hard countered by high templars. Since this playstyle is so utterly passive you can get to infestor/baneling/roach once you ascertain they dont have some massive air switch coming. Until this build removes the reliance on zealots somehow im convinced it can't be a consistent standard. I've used it alot with mostly terrible results so I dont think ill be getting archons the same way as the OP. If you get on 3 bases or especially on a 4th I think its just awesome as a switch to go into archon, but once your opponent knows what you're doing you find yourself in a bad position... at least a worse position than with a standard army.
This is why I keep saying protoss should be finding a way to attack sooner, with 1-3 archons and probably at +1 and without charge
|
How about pressure early with 6 gate as soon as +1 attack is done? You would try to kill someone who went muta and add twilight council + templar archives against someone who used roaches or lings for defense. I'm practicing my standard pvz build lately so I haven't been doing the archon build much.
|
On May 19 2011 10:11 iamke55 wrote:
How about pressure early with 6 gate as soon as +1 attack is done? You would try to kill someone who went muta and add twilight council + templar archives against someone who used roaches or lings for defense. I'm practicing my standard pvz build lately so I haven't been doing the archon build much.
That should work quite well since forge FE transitions quite nicely into 6 gate if needed.
I think if you see 4 gas and not that many spine crawlers (due to you ffing), you can go for a 6 gate 38 probe 2 gas instead of the archon build.
What is your standard build? Just wondering since it seems you're choosing that over this.
|
I tested this build on ladder (plat lvl, against diamond, plat and gold).
Let's say in general I was going on a 2gates/forge expand, which is quite safe in early game PvZ.
From what I've seen (let's forget about gold and plats), if correctly scouted by the zerg (he won't any gas heavy unit from you until 8-9 minutes), you have a huge time window of weakness (around 10-11) where a mass roach in addtion of 3-4 infestors can overwhelm you before you have enough archons to survive. I feel this build is quite vulnerable if applied in early mid game with only 2 nexi --> too gas heavy.
I'm gonna try it as transition in late game. But my feel is right now the 3gates/FE then robo is still the best ans safest opening against zergs 
|
Spanishiwa style was my savior, the protoss was able to win the PvZ match-up so incredibly easily, but now they have to actually shed a sweat or two.
as for the DT's I would say that it'ss very risky but if you catch the zerg off guard you can cancel his third, but no more than that, unless the zerg player is low level.
And I would say the response to your late game composition would be Infestor ultralisk, infestor is used to take out the zealots cost efficiently and ultralisks are used to counter the archons.
In case the protoss player goes for some air-colossi mass air with their zealot archon composition, its most safe to get out corrupters to be able to save the energy on those infestors.
Also with the infestor speen now lowered down we can pay less attention to the infestors but still loosing them would be like a protoss player loosing all his centuries early game (and possibly GGing next.)
As for the dealing with the immortals, it is very cost efficient to use infested terran to scatter them or kill them, also your ultralisks should never waste any of their attacks on the immortals.
ultralisks are easy to micro, save them as much as you can be cause loosing them could be the end of you no matter how far ahead you are. unless you are 7 base vs a 1 base toss with phoenixes.
High templar could do serios damage to your composition so be wary of them. you can deal with them be microing your infestors and keeping the in the back, if the templar get to greedy to kill your infestors kill them with the rest of your army.
If the protoss player switches into mass high templars (gets more than 6 templars out) you can afford to get about 7-8 mutas and wait for an opportunity to catch some of those Templar, because of their movement speed they cant be caught out of position if the protoss player is not careful. and, in time maybe harrass his mineral lines a little make him build a cannon or two. another way of dealing with templar is to use about 10 burrowed roaches in your compostion, as the battle starts burrow your roaches and send them under the protoss army, this would very cost efficient because although the protoss player has an observes and sees them, he focuses his entire army on those burrowed roaches and they take in some much of the focus fire while the rest of your army is doing their job.
|
? ultras counter archons?
1v1 the ultra barely wins
many archons v many ultras the archons dominate
3v3 or so i'm not sure, probably goes to the ultras
3 archon v 2 ultra (same supply) archons obv win
2 archon 7 zlot vs 3 ultra (same cost) toss units crush, you do mention fungal of course but for interest's sake
Use roach/infestor with maybe a few hydras mixed in if you see lots of archons
|
Reeeaally nice, gonna try this out. Would imagine infestors are really strong against this with all the bunching up zealots and low range of the archons. Not morhping some of the HT's and using feedback on the infestors could work I guess. Overall sweeet thread dude!
|
i wonder what the weaknesses of a zlot/stalker/archon/immortal comp with a handful of sentries would be?
Takes too long to get?
Lots of mutas & spines?
Roach/hydra? (would psi storm even it out?)
Is there anything infestors are bad against? 
|
Seems like this has so much potential...key that I don't see discussed is how fast this can get you to a 200 max army. With colossi tech you have to wait forever for thermal lance and for each individual colossi to get out of the oven (1.25 minutes not counting the 65s build time for robo facilities). And in fact a colossi/stalker army is so expensive you usually need to go 3 base before you can make it work. In the screenshot the protoss has what appears to be a 180 supply army at the 15 minute mark...you don't (at least I don't) see that powerful of an army that fast with colossi. That's huge!
It's also great to see a use for zealots...in standard pvz they're only good at holding off early ling pressure then they are worthless because mass ranged units focus them so fast with frontloaded damage.
Here with sufficient numbers, attack upgrades (+12.5% isn't shabby), charge, and archon support they once again become effective and represent a viable mineral sink for protoss which is huge. One of the biggest problems right now for protoss players is they don't have an efficient mineral sink vs zerg.
Yeah, mutas could be a pain...but think about it. If they go muta tech this means their ground forces will be pathetic and you could probably just attack their base. It also means because mutas are so gas expensive that they will have probably mostly mineral sink units (lings) that you would face which is perfect for zealot-archon! Guess the key is just to scout the zerg constantly with probes or a zealot and if you see mineral sink units (spines/lings) assume mass mutas, build defensive cannons...leave a couple of archons behind for defense and consider getting storm. That or change your attack timing to happen a lot faster.
Don't see broodlords being an issue at the 15 minute mark.
Also don't like the idea of getting blink/stalkers/or observers/shield upgrades. This really slows down your monster zarchon push which is key vs zerg because they are such a reactionary and exponetial race that timing is everything with them.
|
I am but a lowly plat, but I've been workign this build out with DTs, as they can put early pressuer on, slow the zerg from moving out, and can actually help you defend from zerglings.
This main problem is you basically just gotta survive until you get a good number of archons+chargelots out.
|
On May 22 2011 08:53 Fungal Growth wrote:
Also don't like the idea of getting blink/stalkers/or observers/shield upgrades. This really slows down your monster zarchon push which is key vs zerg because they are such a reactionary and exponetial race that timing is everything with them.
It's just that if the zerg sees many zealots he'll almost always get roaches and then you need the robo, I'm pretty confident that zlot/archon is bad vs pure roach
|
On May 22 2011 08:54 scur2d2 wrote:
I am but a lowly plat, but I've been workign this build out with DTs, as they can put early pressuer on, slow the zerg from moving out, and can actually help you defend from zerglings.
This main problem is you basically just gotta survive until you get a good number of archons+chargelots out.
I'm a low diamond but I've been working on the same thing. The high templar allow for a much faster food growth buildup as they are so cheap on minerals... But I find that the DTs are great for just a little bit of pressure (I get the DTs after my expansion is secured and up and running).
Even if they scout it it isn't a really big deal, as the DTs are just a method to get less gas expensive archons and be able to maybe kill a couple of drones/cancel a third (cancelling the third is a big one). There was a thread somewhere about if you attack with 3 dts on a hatchery you can kill it before an Overseer morphs. I don't know if it is literally true, but from my experience it would be an accurate assessment. I don't know exactly how much time it takes to kill off a hatchery with 3 dts, but it always seems like the Overseer shows up a little late. Killing off a hatchery does HUGE damage to a Zerg player as they not only will be incapable of really reaping benefits from that expo, but their production is sliced a bunch as well.
Often they will be prepared, but even if you only snipe a few units it has forced them to spend drones and money on static d or money on Overseers or what have you to secure their bases from DTs. So long as you're not behind the Zerg, this works out to be just fine as if you come in there with some DTs and see that there's no way you can do damage, it's okay because you can run them back home and morph them into an Archon which is the whole point of the build anyway.
|
Ive tinkered with this build a lot and made my own modifications. This composition can hit a timing where charge finishes as early at 12 -13 min while expanding at the same time. I treat archons like colossus (damage dealer) and zealots the meat shield+dps. To all those theory crafters out there saying roach-hydra or mass hydra, I gotta say you have to face this to get a feel of how strong this style is. I think only the NP - infestor or mass baneling type composition can stand a chance. Roach-hydra or roach compositions just melt. Foccus firing? Youre forgetting that chargelots have a very high DPS. Basically I do a revised 3 gate zealot sentry expo. I go like this
- 3 gate zealot sentry expo with WG finishing around 5:30 (warp in 1 round of zealot sentry then expo). Hallucinate done at 6:45 to scout for the losira timing attack
-plant forge after planting nexus + pylon at natural
-after scouting, if there's no shenanigans brewing, i cut WG production and probe up while going tech, I go gate - council then take 1 gas at natural > scout again with hallucinate
-at 100% council i get archives > 2nd gas at natural (decision depending on info from scout ,usually i watch out for mutalisk stuff so i go another route if i see that coming)
-at 100% archives i get charge, more gates (I have around 9 or 10 in total of gates), 4 archons, then rest goes to zealot production.
- timing attack around 12:30-13 min while expanding to 3rd, when charge finishes and +2 weapons is done
I still need to find some loopholes to plug though. I'm not a very high lvl player.
|
lol this is some awesome stuff, deff gonna try this out. imo archons has kinda been like "the forgotten unit" in sc2, fun to see some builds where the archons is a core unit finally coming out. gj!
|
this strategy is actually a good find. makes strong use of the latest archon buff.
as a dedicated zerg player here are my thoughts:
- guess the first times i encounter this, i would get overwhelmed, simply because i wouldnt take it seriously enough.
- i should be able to scout this, since i always use overseer combined with changeling as soon as i have a lair
solutions that should be possible with little effort:
1. - go for 8 to 10 spines in front of natural and main + hit'n'run muta to kill enough probes in main /exp.(can go really wrong, if toss scouts spire and gets more cannons. spines are simply not strong enough to hold such a push by themselfs. so i would go for some more queens to heal spines through the push)
2. - go for roach/w speed/burrow/burrowmovement + infestor/w energy (this is probably my most obvious reaction, since archons are kind of a melee unit too. ). this still can be tough, if there isnt enough creep spread. nydus to expansions should help here too, since you need to get way more mobile
ultra/broodlord would take too long to tech, vs FE toss
ling, hydra are dead on sight
|
Unfortunately I kindda abandonned that build. Main reason: infestors. Fungal really makes a good amount of the chargelots useless. Also, in a lot of maps it's hard to engage in an open position where you get a good concave with your army. This kind of army compo in chokes just.. dies vs mass roaches/hydras.. painfully..
|
On May 27 2011 18:09 Nyast wrote:
Unfortunately I kindda abandonned that build. Main reason: infestors. Fungal really makes a good amount of the chargelots useless. Also, in a lot of maps it's hard to engage in an open position where you get a good concave with your army. This kind of army compo in chokes just.. dies vs mass roaches/hydras.. painfully..
Nothing a couple of spare templars can solve here. It boils down to a micro fest between templars and infestors really, with templars having a slight advantage. Do recall that FG now only has 4s duration with the recent patch. Also, you must utilize this composition's mobility too and not keep it steady. You have to keep this army moving to avoid FG hits. Considering the recent influx of big maps, and the nerf to infestor speed off creep, its really opening a whole new dimension to the rather boring match up of PVZ. Personally I find the colossus style of play rather inelegant and downright boring.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
